English Premier League kicks off

[PeteEU]

Liverpool sold... to another American owner... for **** sake. Not one American owner of an English team has EVER worked, so why the **** do the do it again?

 

[Andalublue]

Man City 2 - Newcastle 1: de Jong was shown to be hooligan during the World Cup (not that many of the Dutch players did any better) but his "tackle" on Hatem Ben Arfa could ruin our season.

He now has a double leg fracture which quite probably ends his career.

Don't be melodramatic. They were hairline fractures... hardly an Aaron Ramsey/Eduardo/David Busst scenario. It was bad, but not career-ending.

Was Kidd looking the other way during the World Cup? Do we need to show Kidd de Jong's tackle on Xabi Alonso to see just how dangerous this guy is?

Bryan Kidd was right, there was no malice in it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a horribly mis-timed, over-stated tackle. De Jong isn't a beast, but he does have some work to do on judging his tackles. I think I'd be pretty angry if I were a Toon fan, but I'm not sure Atkinson missed anything, he just made a judgement that the tackle wasn't malicious.

Now, the game. Well played by Newcastle, good in midfield but a bit toothless up front. City played fairly poorly but defended well and the difference between the teams was the arrival of Adam Johnson, a real star in the making. That win takes us second, yet the papers are still saying we've had a poor start to the season and piling praise on United and Arsenal. Makes you laugh and enjoy it while you can.

 

[PeteEU]

Bryan Kidd was right, there was no malice in it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a horribly mis-timed, over-stated tackle. De Jong isn't a beast, but he does have some work to do on judging his tackles. I think I'd be pretty angry if I were a Toon fan, but I'm not sure Atkinson missed anything, he just made a judgement that the tackle wasn't malicious.

Problem is...it is not the first time he has broken some ones leg in a tackle and it is not the first time he has made an unnecessary tackle... he has a history and that makes him a beast... in the way he some times clicks and causes bodily harm.. such people have no place on the football field imo.

 

[Andalublue]

Problem is...it is not the first time he has broken some ones leg in a tackle and it is not the first time he has made an unnecessary tackle... he has a history and that makes him a beast... in the way he some times clicks and causes bodily harm.. such people have no place on the football field imo.

There are plenty of cases of players breaking opponents' legs. It's a contact sport, ffs, these things happen. Football is already too watered down, and players too namby-pamby. I like it a bit more physical, not to the point of leg-breaking, but not so neutered that any tap of the ankle or nudge in the ribs has the Cristiano wannabes throwing themselves to the floor and getting opponents sent off. This is worse in Spain and Italy than in England, but it's still a worrying trend in the EPL.

 

[PeteEU]

There are plenty of cases of players breaking opponents' legs. It's a contact sport, ffs, these things happen. Football is already too watered down, and players too namby-pamby. I like it a bit more physical, not to the point of leg-breaking, but not so neutered that any tap of the ankle or nudge in the ribs has the Cristiano wannabes throwing themselves to the floor and getting opponents sent off. This is worse in Spain and Italy than in England, but it's still a worrying trend in the EPL.

Yea there are plenty of cases where a player breaks his leg, but it is rare that the same player causes 2 leg breaks... very rare.

 

[Andalublue]

Yea there are plenty of cases where a player breaks his leg, but it is rare that the same player causes 2 leg breaks... very rare.

It's very unusual for the same driver to have two motor accidents, but not unheard of and not necessarily the fault of the driver in both cases.

 

[Slainte]

It's a contact sport, ffs, these things happen. Football is already too watered down, and players too namby-pamby. I like it a bit more physical, not to the point of leg-breaking, but not so neutered that any tap of the ankle or nudge in the ribs has the Cristiano wannabes throwing themselves to the floor and getting opponents sent off. This is worse in Spain and Italy than in England, but it's still a worrying trend in the EPL.

This attitude is ridiculous. There is nothing manly or brave about scissor tackling your opponent as he attempts to dribble the ball away from you, De Jong did not put HIS body on the line when he made that tackle.

Injuries are not really caused by going in 'hard' they are caused by poor technique and poor timing. Tackling techniques like the scissor tackle and the 'straight leg' tackle at an opponent running towards you (like the one which broke Eduardo's leg) place your opponent in far too much danger and are thus illegal. Wreckless tackles which involve you leaving your feet very early and thus make your impact with your opponent impossible to controll (like the recent Wilkinson one on Dembele) also place your opponent in too much danger. Neither of these tackles in any way make the perpetrator a 'hard man', quite the opposite in fact, it's a good thing that they are being stamped out.

De Jong is a player who has made several dangerous tackles in a short space of time, this is despite 2 of his previous tackles being in high profile matches with much discussion of them thereafter. It seems clear to me that De Jong does not care that he is making poor tackles which endanger his fellow proffesionals, that attitude is unacceptable.

Frankly, I think you have things backwards, the really tough players in the game are not the ones who lunge into cowardly tackles. They are the Messi's, Iniesta's, and even Ronaldo's of this world, who despite knowing full well they may be a victim of an x-rated tackle for daring to demonstrate their ball skills continue to demand the ball. They are the one's who are putting their bodies in the line.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Don't be melodramatic.

Nothing wrong with a bit of melodrama every now and then - de Jong has quite likely changed our season for the worse.

-- Bryan Kidd was right, there was no malice in it. That doesn't mean it wasn't a horribly mis-timed, over-stated tackle. De Jong isn't a beast, but he does have some work to do on judging his tackles --

The guy is dangerous, he has a clear history of badly timed tackles and scissor tackling is now rightly declared dangerous. Karate kicks into an oponent's chest should equally be declared so I have no idea how he got away with that.

I'm not arguing for softening football - my first sporting love is rugby and that's a hard contact based sport. Football has its share of hard men, some of them were dangerous too. De Jong is simply a danger to anyone he tackles - it may not be with the intent of malicious wounding but he seems out of place and his lack of skill and timing is an unthinking danger to his opponents.

 

[Andalublue]

This attitude is ridiculous. There is nothing manly or brave about scissor tackling your opponent as he attempts to dribble the ball away from you

Why are you introducing arguments I never made? Who mentioned manliness or bravery? I was referring to the gamesmanship of those like Ronaldo (not Messi, and not often Iniesta) who cheat by dissimulation, by pretending to be hurt in order to get their opponents sent off or booked. Tackling is the very core of the sport and should things continue as they are doing, there will be no tackling and the sport will become an unbalanced contest between over-protected, lightweight attackers and over-regulated, ineffective defenders.

Injuries are not really caused by going in 'hard' they are caused by poor technique and poor timing. Tackling techniques like the scissor tackle and the 'straight leg' tackle at an opponent running towards you (like the one which broke Eduardo's leg) place your opponent in far too much danger and are thus illegal. Wreckless tackles which involve you leaving your feet very early and thus make your impact with your opponent impossible to controll (like the recent Wilkinson one on Dembele) also place your opponent in too much danger. Neither of these tackles in any way make the perpetrator a 'hard man', quite the opposite in fact, it's a good thing that they are being stamped out.

In what way are they being stamped out? Have you got statistics that show there are fewer being committed, or that refs are making a particular example of those who commit them?

It seems clear to me that De Jong does not care that he is making poor tackles which endanger his fellow proffesionals, that attitude is unacceptable.

Well, let's see whether it is clear to the authorities. The refs in three incidents seem not to have shared your opinion.

IC...he seems out of place and his lack of skill and timing is an unthinking danger to his opponents.

De Jong was one of, if not THE outstanding player of the Dutch WC squad that reached the final. You may question his judgement and some of his tackles, but to claim he lacks skill is just silly.

 

[Slainte]

Why are you introducing arguments I never made? Who mentioned manliness or bravery?

Your argument in response to this horrific tackle is that football is becoming to 'namby pamby', this implied to me that this scissor tackles were a good way to 'man' the game up. If you didn't want to imply this why bring up 'namby pamby' players at all?

How do wreckless, techinically flawed tackles on players who are not in a position to defend themselves help make the game less 'namby pamby'?

I was referring to the gamesmanship of those like Ronaldo (not Messi, and not often Iniesta) who cheat by dissimulation, by pretending to be hurt in order to get their opponents sent off or booked.

This is irrelevant to the dangerous tackles like the ones which De Jong has commited recently. Both are issues in the game, but one is a much more serious issue than the other.

Tackling is the very core of the sport and should things continue as they are doing, there will be no tackling and the sport will become an unbalanced contest between over-protected, lightweight attackers and over-regulated, ineffective defenders.

I am all in favour of 'hard but fair' tackles, but scissor tackles and straight leg tackles do not fall under that category! The tackler has a responsibilty to time his tackle properly and allow his opponent to escape from the tackle without a serious injury, wreckless tackles which involve leaving your feet very early are impossible to time, and scissor tackles often make injury to your opponent unavoidable. That is why they are illegal.

Defending should be about skill and timing, not thuggery. How often do you see players like Pique or Ferdinand making these dangerous tackles? It is perfectly possible to defenfd in the modern game without putting the health of your opponent at risk.

In what way are they being stamped out? Have you got statistics that show there are fewer being committed, or that refs are making a particular example of those who commit them?

I don't know of any quantitative data, but I certainly thiknk there has been a drop in dangerous tackles from the high-point of about the late 80's, early 90's. This period also coincided with outlawing of the tackle from behind. Marco Van Basten was the last truly great player to have his career ended by poor tackles, hopefully he will be the last.

Well, let's see whether it is clear to the authorities. The refs in three incidents seem not to have shared your opinion.

Probably the saddest part of the whole affair

 

[Andalublue]

Your argument in response to this horrific tackle is that football is becoming to 'namby pamby', this implied to me that this scissor tackles were a good way to 'man' the game up. If you didn't want to imply this why bring up 'namby pamby' players at all?

Well, you're conflating two issues: bad tackles and dissimulation.

On the first point I think I made it clear that I thought Nigel De Jong's tackles need some work, but that he is neither malicious nor a beast and that the refs concur. I think that bad tackling has always occurred and that in a game that pushes human physical abilities to the limit, you'll always have injuries from accidental clashes. I think Nigel De Jong's challenges have always been just that, accidental, as are most of even the worst injuries sustained on the football field. There have been occasions when injuries are deliberately inflicted through malice, like this...

but they are a tiny minority. I really don't see what you would want the authorities to do.

The second point is quite separate but, for the good of the sport, more important. Whereas poor tackling can spoil games and lead to accidental injuries, the occasions when this happens is limited to a couple of times per season, per league. Dissimulation cheating is now evident in almost every game, in every league and is rewarded as often as it is punished. It destroys the game as a sport and is the result, not of recklessness, but of deliberate deceit on the part of cheats. Remember this?

That went unpunished at a World Cup too. Which do you think damages football more, incidents like those involving Rivaldo? Or those involving De Jong? I would argue the former, and that they are far, far, far more common and far less frequently penalised.

When I talk about namby-pamby, I mean that attempts to legislate out all physical elements of the game are likely to detract from its essential nature: a contact sport.

 

[Slainte]

Well, you're conflating two issues: bad tackles and dissimulation.

My main issue was that you were conflating them. It was you who brought up 'namby pamby' players in a post designed to defend De Jong. Although I am glad we are now seperating them.

On the first point I think I made it clear that I thought Nigel De Jong's tackles need some work

This statement is either very naive or dishonest. De Jong has been playing football a long time, he knows that scissor tackling and lunges are dangerous, and he knows when he makes them they are especially dangerous given his physique. When he scissor tackled Ben Arfa, Newcastle's most technically gifted player, in the opening 10 minutes of the match, do you really he think he wasn't trying to 'leave his mark' or 'stamp his authority' on Ben Arfa? I don't think he was trying to break his leg, but he absolutely was trying to hurt Ben Arfa.

but that he is neither malicious nor a beast and that the refs concur.

Howard Webb has already stated he should have sent De Jong off in the World Cup final! I take it that Kung Fu kick wasn't malicious either

I think that bad tackling has always occurred and that in a game that pushes human physical abilities to the limit, you'll always have injuries from accidental clashes.

Even the most hardcore Man Utd fans didn't display any malice towards Kirk Broadfoot after his tackle resulted in Antonio Valencia breaking his leg, why? Because that was a fluke injury resulting from an honest tackle. The Ben Arfa injury was an all to predictable one given the nature of the tackle from De Jong. There is a qualitiative difference between these two injuries and two tackles, a difference you seem unprepared to see.

I think Nigel De Jong's challenges have always been just that, accidental

You think he 'accidentally' scissored Newcastle's most skillfull player in the first 10 minutes of the game??? You certainly like to see the best in people!

Why does De Jong seem to have so many accidents when a great holding midfield player like, say, Makelele went through his entire career without one? I take it De Jong has just been unlucky.

The second point is quite separate but, for the good of the sport, more important.

I fundamentally disgaree, a player's health has to be the most important thing in football. Careers do not get ended by a little theatrics.

Whereas poor tackling can spoil games and lead to accidental injuries, the occasions when this happens is limited to a couple of times per season, per league. Dissimulation cheating is now evident in almost every game, in every league and is rewarded as often as it is punished. I

Poor tackles seem to be rewarded as much as they are punished these days too! Take the de Jong one from the weekend as exhibit A!
Not every poor tackle leads to an injury, thank god, but in the Premiserhsip, and in the SPL these tackles to occur week in, week out, and, they are a major reason why Britain is not producing techinicaly gifted players in the mold of Messi, Iniesta, Robinho, etc. In the UK those kind of players are kicked out of the game from a young age, and bruisers Shawcross and Cattermole come through in their stead.

That went unpunished at a World Cup too. Which do you think damages football more, incidents like those involving Rivaldo? Or those involving De Jong?

The de Jong incident, 100%. Ben Arfa's career could have been ended by that tackle! Rivaldo was a disgrace, no doubt about that, but I'm talking about the livliehood of an honest, extremely talented, young player. I guess it's all about priorities...

When I talk about namby-pamby, I mean that attempts to legislate out all physical elements of the game are likely to detract from its essential nature: a contact sport.

This is nonsense, no one is talking about doing that. The issue is that De Jong has repeatedly crossed the line from phyical to dangerous, hell I'm beginning to wonder if he even understands where that line is, given his reaction on Saturday.

 

[Andalublue]

This statement is either very naive or dishonest. De Jong has been playing football a long time, he knows that scissor tackling and lunges are dangerous, and he knows when he makes them they are especially dangerous given his physique. When he scissor tackled Ben Arfa, Newcastle's most technically gifted player, in the opening 10 minutes of the match, do you really he think he wasn't trying to 'leave his mark' or 'stamp his authority' on Ben Arfa? I don't think he was trying to break his leg, but he absolutely was trying to hurt Ben Arfa.

He was doing what every good defender and defensive midfielder is trained to do, he was indeed stamping his authority on the game. That's what the best defenders do, isn't it? That's their job. When doing that, sometimes things don't go according to plan.

Howard Webb has already stated he should have sent De Jong off in the World Cup final! I take it that Kung Fu kick wasn't malicious either

Given that Webb had the assistance of three other officials at that game, it's a bit pathetic and a frank admission of his incompetence to make such statements weeks after the fact. I suspect he made that statement under the coercion of the media. Had he really thought that, he would have said so the following day, after studying the game footage, but he didn't.

Even the most hardcore Man Utd fans didn't display any malice towards Kirk Broadfoot after his tackle resulted in Antonio Valencia breaking his leg, why? Because that was a fluke injury resulting from an honest tackle.

And this tells us what exactly? Man U fans made no display of distaste at Keane's career-ending challenge on Haaland. Was that a 'fluke injury'? There's a huge difference between the kind of injury inflicted by thugs like Keane and those mis-timed accidents from the likes of De Jong, but that seems to be a distinction you seem unwilling to recognise.

I fundamentally disgaree, a player's health has to be the most important thing in football. Careers do not get ended by a little theatrics.

Accidents will always happen and careers in hard physical pursuits will always be on the line. You seem unwilling or unable to distinguish between the natural and inevitable dangers of professional contact sports and the deliberate and cynical subversion of the rules and spirit of the sport. One needs to be limited as much as humanly possible whilst not destroying the qualities that make the spectators appreciate the physical skill and strength demanded of the players. The other is the concerted attempt to undermine and destroy the values and honesty of the sport we supposedly love. So yes, I believe that cynical cheating is a more serious issue than clamping down further on mistimed tackling. As you conceded, there was no suggestion of De Jong attempting to break Ben Arfa's leg; he was not doing a Roy Keane, he made a mistake. For some reason you wish to make it seem malicious. You're not a Newcastle or Man U fan by any chance, are you?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

He was doing what every good defender and defensive midfielder is trained to do, he was indeed stamping his authority on the game. That's what the best defenders do, isn't it? That's their job.

--snip--

You're not a Newcastle or Man U fan by any chance, are you?

PFA Cheif Executive Gordon taylor has called on Nigel de Jong to take more responsibility for his actions.

The Manchester City midfielder has found himself the centre of attention this week after his crunching tackle on Hatem Ben Arfa on Sunday left the Newcastle winger with a broken leg.

He faced no punishment for the challenge at the time, but has been widely condemned in the aftermath of the game - with this not the first time that he has been involved in a questionable challenge.

Dutch coach Bert van Marwijk was among those of the opinion that De Jong's actions were out of order and he has subsequently dropped him from Euro 2012 qualifying duty.

It is hoped that the midfield enforcer will learn from this experience and take greater care in future.

Taylor feels he needs to if he is to avoid similar criticism, as this episode has erupted shortly after a horror, chest-high tackle in the World Cup final on Spain's Xabi Alonso.

"There was a lot of criticism for the way Holland approached the final," said Taylor.

"Maybe it was a tactical approach and the only way they could come to terms with a very skilful Spanish side.
Intimidating

"There is nothing wrong with getting into people's faces, harassing them and intimidating them as long as it is within the rules.

"According to the referee on Sunday, the tackle that caused the broken leg was not a foul. Other people will have other opinions.

"Nigel is a very committed player. He goes in strongly in a physical contact sport. However, you also have a duty of care to your fellow professionals."

FIFPro general secretary Theo van Seggelen has also called on his fellow Dutchman to think before he acts in the future, and believes De Jong could actually benefit from an enforced break.

"It is a difficult time for Nigel," said Van Seggelen.

"I don't believe there is a player in the world - and we have 50,000 members - who would deliberately try to injure someone else. That would not be acceptable.

"But maybe it is good that for a couple of days he can think about the fact he is not playing.

"It is good for him to think about the way he plays and work out whether he should be a little bit more careful in future. I hope he learns something."Sky Sports

The fact that his National coach, the PFA cheif and the FIFPro general secretary have all come out differently on this should tell you it's not about simple football club rivalry.

I'm a Newcastle fan but my first love is rugby - a true contact sport and test of strength and physical prowess. (Particularly rugby 7's) but I don't think my views on de Jong's tackling and endangerment of his fellow professionals is as bad as your more partisan defence of a Man City player.

 

[Andalublue]

The fact that his National coach, the PFA cheif and the FIFPro general secretary have all come out differently on this should tell you it's not about simple football club rivalry.

I'm a Newcastle fan but my first love is rugby - a true contact sport and test of strength and physical prowess. (Particularly rugby 7's) but I don't think my views on de Jong's tackling and endangerment of his fellow professionals is as bad as your more partisan defence of a Man City player.

I'm not defending the tackle, I think I've made that clear several times. It was an awful tackle committed in error. It seems to me that the only point at issue here is that some people seem to be imputing malicious intention on Nigel De Jong that clearly wasn't there. I've given a clear example of a case where malicious intent ended a footballing career (Keane on Haaland) and shown that no one in authority is suggesting De Jong did the same. The article you quote makes things clear:

There is nothing wrong with getting into people's faces, harassing them and intimidating them as long as it is within the rules.

The ref and now the FA and FIFA have judged that he did not break the rules of the game. What happened was an accident.

I don't believe there is a player in the world - and we have 50,000 members - who would deliberately try to injure someone else. That would not be acceptable.

Quite. That would not be acceptable, but that isn't what took place here.

It is good for him to think about the way he plays and work out whether he should be a little bit more careful in future. I hope he learns something.

Exactly. I hope he does too. He's one of the best defensive midfielders in the game at the moment but, at 25, he still has things to learn and improvements to make.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I'm not defending the tackle, I think I've made that clear several times. It was an awful tackle committed in error. It seems to me that the only point at issue here is that some people seem to be imputing malicious intention on Nigel De Jong that clearly wasn't there --

Nevertheless many non Man City people have said he's a danger to his fellow professionals. Doubtless, Roy Keane was at times too.

Mind you - the karate kick on Xabi Alonso could never be an awful tackle commited in error - he raised his leg in a tackle, studs showing and clearly caught an oponent in the chest.

 

[Slainte]

He was doing what every good defender and defensive midfielder is trained to do, he was indeed stamping his authority on the game. That's what the best defenders do, isn't it? That's their job. When doing that, sometimes things don't go according to plan.

He 'stamped his authority' on the game in an illegal and wreckless way. The scissor tackle traps and opponents leg and prevents him from being able to move with the tackle, as a player can do in a conventional tackle, that is why it is illegal. The fact that referee did not recognise that it was illegal tackle only speaks for his amazing incompetence, it was certainly not the only decision he got wrong in the game.

I have nothing against a defender being aggressive and determined so long as in the process of doing so they do not regularly put their opponents health in danger. As I was trying to communicate earlier, serious injuries are rarely a result of players going in too hard, they are the result of tecnically poor challenges. In the grand scheme of things De Jong tackle on ben Arfa wan't particulary 'hard' or aggressive, it just trapped Ben Arfa's leg in an awkward position. That's the issue here, De Jong has to learn that those kind of tackles are an unacceptable way to 'stamp your authority' on the game. I would suggest Mancicn gives him some videos of a player like Makelele who exerted greater control over games that De Jong ever has and rarely if ever made such awful challenges.

There's a huge difference between the kind of injury inflicted by thugs like Keane and those mis-timed accidents from the likes of De Jong, but that seems to be a distinction you seem unwilling to recognise.

I agree that Keane's tackle on Haaland is a different issue altogether from De Jong's recent tackles. What Keane did was pre-meditated and vicious and deseving of very serious punishment.

As a basic analogy, if Keane and De Jong are both car drivers, Keane has deliberately driven his car into an innocent bystander in an attempt to maim that bystander. De Jong has instead driven in a dangerous way which has meant he is unable to control his car, as a result an innocent bystander has been maimed. Now, what Keane has done is undoubtedly a more serious offence, it had intent. But, De Jong is most certainly not an innocent, he has responsibilty to remain in control, a responsibility he has failed in.

Accidents will always happen and careers in hard physical pursuits will always be on the line. You seem unwilling or unable to distinguish between the natural and inevitable dangers of professional contact sports and the deliberate and cynical subversion of the rules and spirit of the sport.

An injury as a result of a wreckless tackle is not just an 'accident'. It could have been avoided had that player not made the wreckless tackle. This is a simple point you seem unwilling to concede. De Jong has a responsibility not to make scissor tackles, they are danerous and often result in serious injuries to other players.

So yes, I believe that cynical cheating is a more serious issue than clamping down further on mistimed tackling. As you conceded, there was no suggestion of De Jong attempting to break Ben Arfa's leg; he was not doing a Roy Keane, he made a mistake.

Going back to the car analogy, a court should absolutely consider intent when it makes its judgement, but that is not the only thing that must be considered. It is also important to consider whether serious injury was an inevitbale result of the activity in which De Jong was engaged. The 'sorry, I didn't mean to hurt anyone' line, even if true does not excuse his actions.

For some reason you wish to make it seem malicious. You're not a Newcastle or Man U fan by any chance, are you?

I don't think it was malicious, I think it was dangerous, and no, I'm not.

 

[Andalublue]

He 'stamped his authority' on the game in an illegal and wreckless way. The scissor tackle traps and opponents leg and prevents him from being able to move with the tackle, as a player can do in a conventional tackle, that is why it is illegal. The fact that referee did not recognise that it was illegal tackle only speaks for his amazing incompetence, it was certainly not the only decision he got wrong in the game.

I have nothing against a defender being aggressive and determined so long as in the process of doing so they do not regularly put their opponents health in danger. As I was trying to communicate earlier, serious injuries are rarely a result of players going in too hard, they are the result of tecnically poor challenges. In the grand scheme of things De Jong tackle on ben Arfa wan't particulary 'hard' or aggressive, it just trapped Ben Arfa's leg in an awkward position. That's the issue here, De Jong has to learn that those kind of tackles are an unacceptable way to 'stamp your authority' on the game. I would suggest Mancicn gives him some videos of a player like Makelele who exerted greater control over games that De Jong ever has and rarely if ever made such awful challenges.



I agree that Keane's tackle on Haaland is a different issue altogether from De Jong's recent tackles. What Keane did was pre-meditated and vicious and deseving of very serious punishment.

As a basic analogy, if Keane and De Jong are both car drivers, Keane has deliberately driven his car into an innocent bystander in an attempt to maim that bystander. De Jong has instead driven in a dangerous way which has meant he is unable to control his car, as a result an innocent bystander has been maimed. Now, what Keane has done is undoubtedly a more serious offence, it had intent. But, De Jong is most certainly not an innocent, he has responsibilty to remain in control, a responsibility he has failed in.



An injury as a result of a wreckless tackle is not just an 'accident'. It could have been avoided had that player not made the wreckless tackle. This is a simple point you seem unwilling to concede. De Jong has a responsibility not to make scissor tackles, they are danerous and often result in serious injuries to other players.



Going back to the car analogy, a court should absolutely consider intent when it makes its judgement, but that is not the only thing that must be considered. It is also important to consider whether serious injury was an inevitbale result of the activity in which De Jong was engaged. The 'sorry, I didn't mean to hurt anyone' line, even if true does not excuse his actions.



I don't think it was malicious, I think it was dangerous, and no, I'm not.

Okay, all fair comment.

It's reckless, btw, not wreckless. Sorry to be pedantic.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Newcaste now in 9th place... still too early to say we stay up but it's looking good (and we're WAYYYY above Liverpool snicker)

And as for those nearer the top... Man City 0 - 3 Arsenal (hehe!) we play Arsenal in the Carling Cup - and hopefully are not sending out our best team, we need to focus on staying in the Premier League and building for the future.

Watch this space if we win though...

 

[PeteEU]

Newcaste now in 9th place... still too early to say we stay up but it's looking good (and we're WAYYYY above Liverpool snicker)

And as for those nearer the top... Man City 0 - 3 Arsenal (hehe!) we play Arsenal in the Carling Cup - and hopefully are not sending out our best team, we need to focus on staying in the Premier League and building for the future.

Watch this space if we win though...

Well to be fair, the Man City vs Arsenal result is a skewed result since Man City played with 10 men for 85 minutes.

As for Liverpool.. saw their last game and they showed far more grit and determination and good play.. hell even Torres smiled!... not seen that in a while.

Oh and Newcastle will stay up np np. Too good a team imo to go down again.

 

[Andalublue]

Well to be fair, the Man City vs Arsenal result is a skewed result since Man City played with 10 men for 85 minutes.

As for Liverpool.. saw their last game and they showed far more grit and determination and good play.. hell even Torres smiled!... not seen that in a while.

Oh and Newcastle will stay up np np. Too good a team imo to go down again.

Kind of agree with you, Newcastle will stay up, there are too many poorer sides blocking their way to the exit. My predictions for going down are West Ham, Wigan and Wolves.

Arsenal game was a bummer. Not unfair, just unfortunate. Had it been 11 v 11, I think we'd have won again and made it 5 victories in a row against them. With 10 men for 85 mins, and them so fired up, it was a hard task; 3-0 really flattered them. I've never really felt less upset at a 3-0 defeat tbh. Bring on Wolves, West Brom and then THEM on the 10th! Still joint 2nd and yet still not really gelled as a unit. When we do...

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Bring on Wolves

ooops!

-- still not really gelled as a unit

This sounds worrying. What's your gut reaction Andalublue? It's always a worry when a manager says things like this - it's a bit like "the manager recieved the support of the chairman.." - you always know someone's on the way out when you read that particular statement..

 

[Andalublue]

ooops!



This sounds worrying. What's your gut reaction Andalublue? It's always a worry when a manager says things like this - it's a bit like "the manager recieved the support of the chairman.." - you always know someone's on the way out when you read that particular statement..

My gut reaction is that it's our turn for the media merry-go-round. United have had it already this season with the Rooney nonsense. Liverpool have had it and will continue to get it until they improve further. The voracious appetite of the 24-hour sports media ensures that any molehill will be made to look like Everest. We've lost 3 games so far and lie 4th in the EPL. This evening, potentially, we could advance to the next stage of the Europa league at the first possible opportunity. If you are to throw a fit of anxiety at this current position, then you could and would do so at anything. Sure, if we fail to improve further and by Xmas are mid-table, out of Europa and having lost to United badly, then yes, we'll have a minor 'crisis' to deal with. If the owners have learned anything about running a top-flight football club however, they'll realise that the knee-jerk reaction of sacking the manager after a couple of defeats, a manager you appointed not a year ago, is not the route to success. Ask Real Madrid in recent years, or AC Milan. Stability and consistency, it'll be nice to see whether we get any.

 

[PeteEU]

My gut reaction is that it's our turn for the media merry-go-round. United have had it already this season with the Rooney nonsense. Liverpool have had it and will continue to get it until they improve further. The voracious appetite of the 24-hour sports media ensures that any molehill will be made to look like Everest. We've lost 3 games so far and lie 4th in the EPL. This evening, potentially, we could advance to the next stage of the Europa league at the first possible opportunity.

Nope Granted Man City was bloody unlucky (second goal especially), they did not play well at all.

If you are to throw a fit of anxiety at this current position, then you could and would do so at anything. Sure, if we fail to improve further and by Xmas are mid-table, out of Europa and having lost to United badly, then yes, we'll have a minor 'crisis' to deal with. If the owners have learned anything about running a top-flight football club however, they'll realise that the knee-jerk reaction of sacking the manager after a couple of defeats, a manager you appointed not a year ago, is not the route to success. Ask Real Madrid in recent years, or AC Milan. Stability and consistency, it'll be nice to see whether we get any.

I agree. However I doubt that a manager change will fix City's problem. You need to get rid of a few disruptive players.. Adabayor does not fit into the team, that is bloody obvious. He is a typical Arsenal player.. huge ego, and inconsistent and a negative influence on team harmony. Even Tevez might have to go since he is not happy in the UK (well wife is not happy), and that does not help the team. You were wise to get rid of Robinho as well, since he clearly signed for the wrong Manchester team (still remember the first press conference heh). And Bellamy should stay in Cardiff. Also Kompany should be taken a second look at, as he has been semi disruptive in previous clubs.

It is clear that the whole team is not happy. Yaya get plenty of play time, and plays well but he is turning slowly into the same sulking attitude he had in his last year at Barca and when it reaches a certain limit then his good play will poof. Silva is still struggling imo, and that is again mostly because of the bad atmosphere in the dressing room. He had the same problem in Spain when there was trouble in Valencia.

So in short, the owners have to do something soon and getting rid of the manager wont help.

 

[Andalublue]

Nope Granted Man City was bloody unlucky (second goal especially), they did not play well at all.



I agree. However I doubt that a manager change will fix City's problem. You need to get rid of a few disruptive players.. Adabayor does not fit into the team, that is bloody obvious. He is a typical Arsenal player.. huge ego, and inconsistent and a negative influence on team harmony. Even Tevez might have to go since he is not happy in the UK (well wife is not happy), and that does not help the team. You were wise to get rid of Robinho as well, since he clearly signed for the wrong Manchester team (still remember the first press conference heh). And Bellamy should stay in Cardiff. Also Kompany should be taken a second look at, as he has been semi disruptive in previous clubs.

It is clear that the whole team is not happy. Yaya get plenty of play time, and plays well but he is turning slowly into the same sulking attitude he had in his last year at Barca and when it reaches a certain limit then his good play will poof. Silva is still struggling imo, and that is again mostly because of the bad atmosphere in the dressing room. He had the same problem in Spain when there was trouble in Valencia.

So in short, the owners have to do something soon and getting rid of the manager wont help.

Quite fair, but I would repeat that these reports of disharmony are denied by everyone at the club. Everyone. Not a single person at the club has given credence to the reports, 90%+ is pure invention by sports journos with nothing constructive to say about the sport. They are maggots. I'd suggest that any niggles between players are perfectly normal and exist at every club. Three losses isn't good, but it's hardly losing-your-job-time just yet.