EDL choose Bolton

[Republic_Of_Public]

I could go onto offer the many services the Union offers its membership but that would take me on a tangent and a derailment too far.

Paul

I wasn't talking about the union as such, just the footsoldiers marching round looking for racists and fascists to pretend to be the victims of.

 

[gunner]

I wasn't talking about the union as such, just the footsoldiers marching round looking for racists and fascists to pretend to be the victims of.

Well, perhaps you need to contextualize your stance better.

Paul

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I thought I did. Unite is the union and Unite Against Fascism is its offshoot.

That's what I was always told anyway.

 

[gunner]

I thought I did. Unite is the union and Unite Against Fascism is its offshoot.

That's what I was always told anyway.

No, you never.

You presented it as if there was some kind of collusion. Like you often do 'make blanket' assertions.

By the way, are you 'for' or 'against' Fascism? a simple yes or no will suffice...

Paul

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Well there is collusion.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_Against_Fascism]Unite Against Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



And yes, I'm against fascism.

 

[Andalublue]

Stop playing the victim. If you're going to make absurd suggestions without the faintest whiff of hard fact, for example that I'm in conversation with the EDL or being in league with the BNP, you'll just have to suffer my usual pointing out where you're wrong.

I don't mind if you ignore me. Probably just as well if you think a follow-up question ruins the nice, tidy topic you present to the world. If it keeps your blood pressure down, please do so by all means, particularly if it stops you from launching into personal attacks in leiu of evidence.

The point is RoP, whether or not you have any involvement with far-right groups such as EDL or BNP, you can't blame anyone for drawing the conclusion that you too are way, way off to the right politically when you spend every post attacking the left or liberals or Moslems or immigrant workers. I suspect you are not connected to those groups of extremists, but possibly because you don't have the courage of your convictions rather than not agreeing with them.

I think Alexa pointing this out is not a personal attack, it's an opportunity for you to distance yourself from the extreme right.

In the interests of balance, let me tell you that I support the aims of UAF, to ensure that far-right attempts to intimidate and threaten minority groups should not go unopposed. I don't like some of their tactics and I would like to see them look at a slightly wider definition of fascism, which would certainly include Anjem Choudary's mob.

It appears to me that because they don't attack Sharia4UK, you think that gives you the permission to write them off and keep shtum about the far-right who are actively stirring up racial hatred. When you say you hate extremes on both the left and the right, anyone with eyes to read can see that this isn't true. If you want to be taken seriously, don't deny it, prove it.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

It's significant that the accusations of me aligning myself with street thugs become louder when I happen to ask uncomfortable questions. That smacks of my opponents not having the courage of their convictions instead, especially as they actually back one group of yobs! I had my points of view long before I knew of the EDL or BNP.

And Alexa clearly the has the balls she wasn't born with to get all uptight when she herself called me sick for example!

And why should I prostrate myself to 'prove' what I have already said, particularly when Weyman Bennett himself has been arrested for using his UAF stormtrooper group to commit violent disorder?

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/5074044.55_arrests_at_protests/?ref=rss - An inconvenient truth!


"We, the council and the communities of Bolton have worked hard over recent weeks in order to facilitate these protests in a safe and responsible manner.

"Today in Bolton we have seen some small evidence of this protest in the form of flag waving and vitriolic name calling - but we have also seen groups of people, predominantly associated with the UAF, engaging in violent confrontation.

"It is clear to me that a large number have attended today with the sole intention of committing disorder and their actions have been wholly unacceptable. Turning their anger onto police officers they acted with, at times, extreme violence and their actions led to injuries to police officers, protestors and members of the public.

"The police are not and should not be the target of such violence and anger and this protest and the actions of some of the protestors is roundly condemned by GMP and by Bolton Council. Were it not for the professionalism and bravery of police officers many others would have been seriously injured. I would also like to praise the efforts of the EDL stewards who worked with us in the face of some very ugly confrontations."


Says a lot about people who back the UAF on the grounds of being good and pure!

For the last time: Violence used to back up any political ideology or campaign is bad, regardless of whether it's from the 'boots and fists' far Right, 'peace-n-luv' far Left or the 'scimitars and sharia' radical Islamists.


___________________________

"You too are way, way off to the right politically" - Remind me who you vote for again? Even the Tories are far right to them!

 

[alexa]

In the interests of balance, let me tell you that I support the aims of UAF, to ensure that far-right attempts to intimidate and threaten minority groups should not go unopposed. I don't like some of their tactics and I would like to see them look at a slightly wider definition of fascism, which would certainly include Anjem Choudary's mob.

It appears to me that because they don't attack Sharia4UK, you think that gives you the permission to write them off and keep shtum about the far-right who are actively stirring up racial hatred. When you say you hate extremes on both the left and the right, anyone with eyes to read can see that this isn't true. If you want to be taken seriously, don't deny it, prove it.

These are the sort of thing I was hoping would come up in this thread.

Choudray began by getting an inordinate amount of publicity when he and 11 others protested at troops homecoming. He then got publicity from his apparent Marches/meetings/protests for Trafalgar Square 'Sharia 4 UK' which obviously did not meet with a great deal of appeal to anyone and then Woottam Bassett which was also cancelled.

My guess would be that his hope was to gradually get more and more publicity and hopefully more recruits, rather than necessarily intending either of these marches. Many Muslims are strongly against the Afghan and Iraq wars, so he would have thought that would have greater appeal, though at the same time the Iraq war never had a great deal of public support. Support for the war being a different issue to respecting those who serve and lose their lives.

So the question with him has always been is it a good idea to give him more publicity. As it happens Islam4UK was prosecuted on 14th January under the 2000 Terrorism Act making membership illegal.

From what I can gather UAF has not really worked out all it's ways and what it thinks about everything. This is hardly surprising as this is all very new.

One thing which I think has come from this thread is the possibility of redefining things. If people feel more comfortable with the UAF calling whatever fledgling little group Choudray comes up with next as fascist, then lets just do that. His kind of party is Radical Islamist fascist and the BNP/EDL is on the Nazi/white supremacist Fascist side but they are both Fascist.

Maybe as things move on, if they do develop much more rather than just fading out, we can all come together against the Fascists whoever they are.

In the mean time with some reservations I think UAF are doing a needed job. How they do that may change with experience and feedback.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

If people feel more comfortable with the UAF calling whatever fledgling little group Choudray comes up with next as fascist, then lets just do that.

How nice of you to concede that. Why didn't you say that earlier back on the first page, or did you need me to nag you into it?



Is this the 'much needed job' the UAF did this weekend:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/20/article-1259409-08CC388D000005DC-856_634x411.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...i-fascists-clash-violent-street-protests.html




Two sets of fascists I'm glad we agree:

Muslim youth clash with police as UAF 'defends' Mosque | Demotix.com

 

[alexa]

Couldn't help notice RoP little ego trip above. No, I was not replying to you. However as his organisation was dealt with by the law, the situation is really already dealt with. I was also projecting into the future. This all is very new and I believe that people need as yet to get a perspective on it. I still believe what Choudary needs more than anything is lack of publicity. In the future if things develop we may as I said see both the BNP/EDL and any fascist Radical Islamist groups as fascist and that is all.

I trust you are therfore also agreeing that the EDL/BNP are fascist but I see no indication of it.

I have no interest in discussing things with you. I just came on to save people time in letting them know that what you refer to me saying you were sick was my saying you were either a bit sick or completely uneducated if you believed that the Mark Humfreys link you presented which Infinite discusses in Post 8 is any kind of credible link.

You are on ignore and any further little attempts to get me to speak to you like egotistically pretending I am in any way replying or influenced by you will be ignored.

 

[Andalublue]

It's significant that the accusations of me aligning myself with street thugs become louder when I happen to ask uncomfortable questions. That smacks of my opponents not having the courage of their convictions instead, especially as they actually back one group of yobs! I had my points of view long before I knew of the EDL or BNP.

The question put was, are they the same views as those of the EDL/BNP? Not how long have you held them. I didn't accuse you of having connections with the thugs, I'd just like you to be a little more honest and open about what you do think.

And why should I prostrate myself to 'prove' what I have already said, particularly when Weyman Bennett himself has been arrested for using his UAF stormtrooper group to commit violent disorder?

Weyman Bennett isn't posting on DP, you are. Why is being clear and open about what you believe asking you to "prostrate" yourself?

Here's what the EDL say about themselves:
Who are the EDL? - Exposing the Myth

What part of that do you disagree with?

Says a lot about people who back the UAF on the grounds of being good and pure!

I haven't heard anyone from UAF claiming goodness and purity, just a determination to counter the influence of the far-right. Unfortunately, there seem to be elements of UAF supporters willing to give the anti-fascist movement the bad publicity for being violent. They do that for their own political reasons. I hope the UAF roots them out and sends them packing. I also hope the EDL root out the neo-Nazis in their ranks who commit acts of violence and vandalism, as they did in Stoke...
EDL violence in Stoke will hit them hard Counterpoint

For the last time: Violence used to back up any political ideology or campaign is bad, regardless of whether it's from the 'boots and fists' far Right, 'peace-n-luv' far Left or the 'scimitars and sharia' radical Islamists.

Glad to hear it, but the issue of violence isn't the only issue at hand.

"You too are way, way off to the right politically" - Remind me who you vote for again? Even the Tories are far right to them!

That's the point! Bravo. I'm clear and open about my political allegiance. You're not. You claim to hate both extremes but only attack one side. You claim to hate Tories and Labour but only attack Labour.

Who are you, RoP? Do you actually advocate anything, believe in anything? Do you believe in the EDL's stated mission or not?

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I was also projecting into the future. This all is very new and I believe that people need as yet to get a perspective on it.

Hmm, just what Nick Griffin said when he wanted to wipe the slate clean with a new, non-violent BNP!

Funny how liberals go all coy when their own thugs and extremists are brought out into the open! No wonder I get No Platformed when the truth can be hard to stomach, though it's interesting that I can't use the same trick back without being accused of ducking the argument!

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I'd just like you to be a little more honest and open about what you do think.

You know what I think and who I vote for. You know I've been a Tory voter but who voted BNP in the Euro election to give the Establishment a kick. And yes I have lambasted Labour more than the Tories, but the Tories are less PC and no Tory minister has held office since 1997, so it's pretty hard to give them similar treatment.


I think you know full well the EDL site would leave out any evidence of their own far-Right extremism, hence the extra links posted on them by the likes of Alexa. I don't want to see Islamic extremism as much as anyone, yet I wouldn't join an organisation with a record of violence, would you? I have posted evidence of my criticism, but it went unseen.

 

[Andalublue]

You know what I think and who I vote for. You know I've been a Tory voter but who voted BNP in the Euro election to give the Establishment a kick. And yes I have lambasted Labour more than the Tories, but the Tories are less PC and no Tory minister has held office since 1997, so it's pretty hard to give them similar treatment.

I did not know that. You may have written it in reply to someone else, not to me. Sorry, I don't read your every sentence. Well, I would be interested to know whether you plan to vote BNP again in May, given your stated aversion to their violence and racism. Should I assume not?

I think you know full well the EDL site would leave out any evidence of their own far-Right extremism, hence the extra links posted on them by the likes of Alexa. I don't want to see Islamic extremism as much as anyone, yet I wouldn't join an organisation with a record of violence, would you? I have posted evidence of my criticism, but it went unseen.

Of course they would leave that out. I still think there's plenty in there to scare the average voter though, no?

I abhor fascism of the Nazi kind or the Islamic kind but I don't subscribe to the idea that my enemy's enemy is my friend.

So, if the EDL complain: "We also don't agree with the stealthy introduction of Sharia into our legal system... It does not recognise marital rape, it does not recognise gay rights, it does not recognise many factors contained in the Universal Declaration Of Human Rights. We have had enough, why should anyone tolerate intolerance?" I don't disagree with them, how could I?, but I think that 9 out of 10 of their supporters would want nothing to do with the UDHR and its strong protection of minority communities.

I'd go further, I suspect a fair proportion of those marchers in Bolton or Stoke have actually taken part in "queer-bashing" and abusing women, hell, they were shouting obscenities at Asian women on the march.

So RoP, you really need to get some perspective. If you are just a traditional Tory disenchanted with the political elite and terrified by your perception of aggressive Islamism, then you need to engage in the debate but distance yourself quite clearly from the far-right who might articulate your fears but are not fighting to create a society you want to live in. You can see their claims to being a peaceful, pluralistic movement as a sham as well as I can.

Condemn them as you condemn Choudary's bunch, and not just for using violence, but for being against a democratic, pluralist, peaceful society.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

If you are just a traditional Tory disenchanted with the political elite and terrified by your perception of aggressive Islamism, then you need to engage in the debate but distance yourself quite clearly from the far-right who might articulate your fears but are not fighting to create a society you want to live in.

We read all the time how the likes of the EDL present things like sanitised mission statements to seem more reasonable and to move away from their heritage.

But to distance myself from people who move towards me would only mean having to move myself. And I'm not going somewhere I don't want to be just because other people I don't like echo many things I say.

 

[alexa]

Oh dear, I can't resist this. I have thought since you joined the forum that you were BNP, though I am unaware of you ever saying you were. Indeed I had thought you had denied it. My curiosity was simply why you were not, as my usual experience of BNP members has been, made this very clear. I had thought maybe you thought you could sneakily get us on board.

But to distance myself from people who move towards me

This indeed sounds like one of the strategies I have heard the BNP uses to get people on board. Find someone who maybe is a bit lonely and offer friendship.

would only mean having to move myself.

not quite sure what you mean by this. I hope you are not saying you are scared to leave.

And I'm not going somewhere I don't want to be just because other people I don't like echo many things I say.

Firstly these are not your views. The reason I thought you were BNP was because I have heard everything, right down to the style before. There is nothing new, nothing original.

Secondly from this

just because other people I don't like echo many things I say

they are not echoing what you say. I suspect you have all been brainwashed. No other party has people who all speak the same talk right down to the style and in addition the above lets me know I was not far wrong. You know the BNP is involved in the EDL and yet, you are going to stay with it. Then you are a part of that. If I know a philosophy involves having a violent wing and I decide to stay then I am responsible for that violence whether I am violent or not.

And people wonder how Nazi Germany started. Dead easy it seems.

I think RoR that you do have decency in you, even if it is just shown by your fury at the idea of you supporting violence so I would urge you to consider what you have made yourself a part of and what you yourself will need to take responsibility for.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Thank you for your patronising concern. If you think I'm some kind of BNP robot here to convert you all, be my guest. If you think I failed then be my guest. As that's not the case at all I don't really mind.

I am my own man you know, whether you think I'm conforming to a template or not. As even the likes of Richard Littlejohn, the Mail and Express have been accused of being recruiting sergeants for the far Right I think I can take your accusations in some kind of logical context.

One last dig, as it's something I can't resist myself:

"If I know a philosophy involves having a violent wing and I decide to stay then I am responsible for that violence whether I am violent or not." - Let's ask Weyman Bennett or the other 55 UAF-ers arrested yesterday if we can take that too literally. He should be out on bail by now.



PS - Don't you worry, I'm not going anywhere. I just meant I didn't want moving leftwards to centre if the EDL was coming to my position.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Intruiging footnote:

The battle of Bolton and the media | Expose the BNP


Anti-fascist protesters emerged victorious on Saturday after holding Bolton’s central Victoria Square against the racists from the English Defence League.

But mainstream national media reports are presenting it as a contest between two violent groups – and blaming the anti-fascists for the violence.

Anti-fascists faced brutality from police with dogs and on horseback. There were over 60 arrests – 55 Unite Against Fascism and 9 EDL, according to Sky news – including UAF leader Weyman Bennett “on suspicion of conspiracy to commit violent disorder”.




I seem to remember militant leftist pickets during the Miners' Strike complaining that they got arrested or robustly resisted when rioting against police.

Cops blocked the protesters from attacking the EDL, so some UAF members turned on the police instead.


Shafiq told Socialist Worker, ‘The police tried to stop us getting here by holding us in a side road for hours. Several times we tried to break through their lines, but they held us back. … Its disgusting that the police have allowed the EDL to do what ever they like here, but we’ve been stopped from defending our own town.’”



I don't see getting arrested or whining about being denied a monster punch-up as a victory.

Just how much more of a violent explosion would have occurred had the police allowed the mob to move on the EDL, whose more violent members would have had absolutely no qualms at all in giving as good as they get? They're not the police you know, they thrive on confrontation like that.

 

[gunner]

We read all the time how the likes of the EDL present things like sanitised mission statements to seem more reasonable and to move away from their heritage.

But to distance myself from people who move towards me would only mean having to move myself. And I'm not going somewhere I don't want to be just because other people I don't like echo many things I say.

So, if other people are 'echoing' what you say, and you dont like them, what does that say about YOU?

Paul

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

You tell me.

 

[Andalublue]

So, if other people are 'echoing' what you say, and you dont like them, what does that say about YOU?

Paul

We don't really need to spell it out, Paul. Find a thread anywhere on DP and a reactionary position on it, there you'll find RoP thanking the poster.

The idea that the EDL are approaching or encroaching on your position is as odd as it is solipsistic. You shall be judged by the company you keep in that position.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

You shall be judged by the company you (are perceived to) keep in that position.

Likewise I'm sure.

 

[Andalublue]

Likewise I'm sure.

Quite so. I am very proud to keep the company of gunner, Alexa, Red Dave, Infinite Chaos, degreez, marduc, Laila, Catz, Catawba, Liblady, Wiseone, MetalGear, SpudMeister, Fiddytreee and many more. I'm also quite proud to be associated with the Green movement, Izquierda Unida, International Lesbian and Gay Association, the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture, Open Way Zen, Index on Censorship and Mith Samlanh: Streetkid Support in Cambodia.

I'm very happy to be judged by the company I keep. I'm sure the EDL, mbig, Picaro and Grant will make you very happy.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

You missed out the UAF and the Communist Party on your friends list.


I'm not in the EDL. But if it helps your delusions, then feel free to think otherwise.

 

[Andalublue]

You missed out the UAF and the Communist Party on your friends list.


I'm not in the EDL. But if it helps your delusions, then feel free to think otherwise.

Nor am I in the UAF or the Communist Party, but not to worry. I don't know enough about the UAF, I think if you look at my posts on this thread I've criticised them as much as praised them.