Donald Trump: Don't change abortion laws

[EnigmaO01]

Believing that sort of total hogwash is what is likely to open the door for yet another Kent State. Those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it.

And electing Trump is the best way to see to it that history does repeat itself. He said so himself, "protesters carried out on a stretcher" is exactly what happened on that sad, sad day that must never be forgotten.

Trump is an ignorant Ahole for sure!

 

[cpwill]

Pretty sure there was fire hosing and billy clubbing before the shooting started.

Wiki (which has some interesting background on the picture) seems to indicate that it was a lot of marching around, followed by shooting.

Why are hippy lives worth less than an unborn child's?

[tongue in cheek]Because children are people, whereas hippies aren't[/tongue in cheek]

More seriously, each has equal, inherent human rights and worth. I have more sympathy for children than for the Vietnam protest movement, because the latter chose to support mass evil.

Anyway, lets get back to bashing trump. Enemy of my enemy and all that. We can return to our disagreements after we avert THIS catastrophe.

Fair nuff.

 

[minnie616]

:shrug: which part is total hogwash? That bodies that are shot tend to bleed? That headshots tend to bleed (and spatter)? Or that, if the man laying down is staged instead of a killed victim, that it reduces the drama of the picture.
...

Head shots? Do you really think the guards aimed to kill?
I don't think the Guards shot to kill nor that they were going after individuals.
I believe one of the guardsmen got nervous, pulled the trigger, others heard the gunfire and fired into the crowd.
4 were killed many more were injured.

 

[iguanaman]

It is found in the inherent rights of others. For example, the state has the right to tell my wife that she cannot use her body to operate a vehicle while intoxicated, or murder the neighbors in their sleep. The state has the right to protect others' Rights from our exercise of our own.

We even go a step further when we do things like criminalize methamphetamine and heroin; telling people what they can and cannot put into their bodies.

Spoken like a true authoritarian. Why is it that Conservatives say they like small Govt. but want the State to control all aspects of our lives? It is plain crazy to want he State out of all humanitarian causes but double down on jackbooted thuggery.

 

[MrT]

Trump is pro-choice. I don't know why anyone is getting their feelings in a bunch about him on this topic. He's just throwing out random stuff in what he believes will play to a certain group of people.

I think it is specifically the fact that he is "just throwing out random stuff in what he believes will play to a certain group of people," and particularly in light of the fact that he is running for President where your statements actually results in policies - that is why people are "getting their feelings in a bunch about him on this topic."

 

[cpwill]

Head shots? Do you really think the guards aimed to kill?

From a gut-guess, I doubt they were aiming at all. Stopping and carefully actually achieving sight alignment / sight picture in a high stress dynamic environment like that isn't instinctive, which is why you have to train for it.

I listed a series of data points, which he declared to be Total Hogwash. I wanted to know which one(s) he was referring to.

I don't think the Guards shot to kill nor that they were going after individuals.
I believe one of the guardsmen got nervous, pulled the trigger, others heard the gunfire and fired into the crowd.
4 were killed many more were injured.

That seems generally to match the data.

 

[cpwill]

Spoken like a true authoritarian.

Not at all. Recognizing that the State exists to protect our Rights is a fundamental Libertarian truth (and one of our key founding claims).

 

[Top Cat]

If you have 2 1/2 minutes you might want to listen to what he really did say.
Transcripts are fine, but the original has more depth. In this case it is pretty clear he doesn't want to rile people like you more than necessary. You see, actually he obviously was saying that the majorities were probably not there to ditch this type of murder at this time and the law would have to stay on the books for the moment.

Right on cue. The religious nut job right has arrived.

 

[Top Cat]

Just to point out - those were hippies, not people.


And, while this may be "iconic" or something, from a position of someone who hasn't seen it before, that photo looks rather staged. Everyone is just standing around, looking kinda "whatever" with the one female kneeling dramatically in the "Why God Why" pose. No blood around the victim, nor obvious exit wounds anywhere in the torso, head, or legs.

Wow. Here we have a Kent State denier?

 

[Top Cat]

Lest we forget: Here are some of the "non human hippies" killed at Kent State:

and here is another picture of the event:

Lest we forget. Kent State must never again happen in the US. The Vietnam War must never be repeated... oh wait. It already has, in Iraq.

No more unnecessary and limited wars! If we're going to war, it has to be for a clear an present danger to the nation, not for military adventurism or to fight some ideology we find offensive, or simply for power. If we do go to war, it must be the whole nation that is behind the war and victory the only option.

All, or nothing. The so called "hippies" were right.

 

[minnie616]

I don't see anyone running, certainly not running away. Everyone in the kill zone is just kinda standing there, while the people in the background have defilade.

If this is well after the shooting, and so there is no perceived danger, people are just milling about, etc., then I have to ask how someone can be shot in the vitals, in the head, or in critical arteries enough to drop them in their tracks, but not enough to cause them to bleed.

And again - I'm not saying it's a fake. I'm just saying it sorta looks like it is.

There were 67 bullets fired in 13 seconds. 13 seconds that seemed like forever to those who were there.
4 were killed. Others were wounded.
Then the shooting was over and the shock and horror set in.

 

[cpwill]

There were 67 bullets fired in 13 seconds. 13 seconds that seemed like forever to those who were there.

Time tends to slow down when you're getting shot at, but I don't recall it quite lasting forever. More like every single thing and decision comes into focus, and you end up with clearer memories as a result of making focused and impactful decisions. Churchill once declared that there was nothing quite so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.

4 were killed. Others were wounded.
Then the shooting was over and the shock and horror set in.

Okedoke. :shrug:

 

[minnie616]

Time tends to slow down when you're getting shot at, but I don't recall it quite lasting forever. More like every single thing and decision comes into focus, and you end up with clearer memories as a result of making focused and impactful decisions. Churchill once declared that there was nothing quite so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.

Perhaps I should said felt like minutes ...still it was only 13 seconds.
Even if the picture was taken a minute or two after the shooting the initial danger was over which is why the students then stopped running away and turned around to see why the girl behind them was screaming.

 

[JasperL]

Just to point out - those were hippies, not people.


And, while this may be "iconic" or something, from a position of someone who hasn't seen it before, that photo looks rather staged. Everyone is just standing around, looking kinda "whatever" with the one female kneeling dramatically in the "Why God Why" pose. No blood around the victim, nor obvious exit wounds anywhere in the torso, head, or legs.

Just FWIW, that liquid clearly visible behind his head and running all the way to the curb? Blood... And it won a Pulitzer prize.

Another angle of the same dead guy, Jeffrey Miller.

 

[cpwill]

Perhaps I should said felt like minutes ...still it was only 13 seconds.

That's fairly likely.

Just FWIW, that liquid clearly visible behind his head and running all the way to the curb? Blood...

Yup. In that shot it's fairly evident.

 

[Dittohead not!]

And I am not condoning the shooting, but in the case of the Kent State shooting (no idea if this particular photo is staged or not) the NG was pelted with rocks and bottles and thought they heard an order to shoot. The students certainly weren't just walking to class.

Was a military dependent at the time and one of my dad's duties was to creat a barrier between protesters and the main gate of the post ( Ft. Devens, Mass.)

The war was wrong, and even my father who was Green Beret in Vietnam and Cambodia now admits it was a colossal waste of treasure and lives. It took him decades to admit that as many lives of his fellow soldiers were sacrificed there and I think a piece of his soul. He still has nightmares. Was put under a while back for a colonscopy and was sure the Dr. was VC.

Pelting cops or National Guard with rocks and bottles is never a good idea, of course. It still doesn't justify opening fire.

I don't think we have even today a full accounting of the costs of the war in Vietnam, or how many brave and patriotic men and women have been missing a part of their soul since.

 

[Dittohead not!]

:shrug: which part is total hogwash? That bodies that are shot tend to bleed? That headshots tend to bleed (and spatter)? Or that, if the man laying down is staged instead of a killed victim, that it reduces the drama of the picture.




No, we are all generally doomed to repeat it, because human nature is a fairly solid, fallible thing.



Anti-War protesters learned that their actions had consequences, and that when you assault armed men, sometimes those armed men will assault you right back.


On my list of things to remember, that ranks pretty low. I'm fairly certain, in fact, that that lesson was somewhat obvious without having to learn it from history. I feel bad for the students who wanted no part of it, and who were just trying to walk to class, but if you want to start setting fires and attacking first responders and security personnel... :shrug: That's a fight you chose. I don't really feel any sympathy for BLM rioters who get put down while attacking civilians and police, and I don't really feel any sympathy for violent anti-war protesters.

War protests and BLM are two different issues.

And one of the consequences of young people standing up for what was right, besides having been derided as "hippies" (see pictures above and then decide), harassed, and sometimes jailed, was that we finally and belatedly allowed the Vietnamese to have their independence that they had won from the French so many years before.

Unfortunately, the only lesson that the nation seemed to have learned was that, next time we go off on military adventures that might not be so popular at home, do it with professional soldiers. Unwilling conscripts are more likely to protest.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Trump is pro-choice. I don't know why anyone is getting their feelings in a bunch about him on this topic. He's just throwing out random stuff in what he believes will play to a certain group of people.

Exactly. He's just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. He has no real ideology. Who knows what he'd really do if, heaven forbid, we actually elected him.

 

[Thrilla]

Now Donald Trump says , "don't change abortion laws."

It seems to me like Trump has not thought the abortion issue out.



From CBS news



Read more:

Donald Trump: Don't change abortion laws - Election 2016 - CBS News


From CNN:



Donald Trump says federal laws should not be changed to outlaw abortion - CNNPolitics.com

abortions shouldn't be a presidential campaign issue anyways.....and i'm not understanding why they are tryign to force it to be an issue when it comes to Trump.

 

[Thrilla]

Exactly. He's just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. He has no real ideology. Who knows what he'd really do if, heaven forbid, we actually elected him.

well, the problem with that opinion is that Trump is raiing abortion as an issue... folks interviewing him are.

I think if he was left to his own devices, he wouldn't even mention abortion as an issue.... i believe that because he hasn't raised the issue himself even once.

 

[Dittohead not!]

well, the problem with that opinion is that Trump is raiing abortion as an issue... folks interviewing him are.

I think if he was left to his own devices, he wouldn't even mention abortion as an issue.... i believe that because he hasn't raised the issue himself even once.

Since he has taken more positions on the issue than are found in the Kamasutra, it seems likely that he would not have brought it up himself.

 

[Fishking]

Exactly. He's just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. He has no real ideology. Who knows what he'd really do if, heaven forbid, we actually elected him.

Well...he has been consistent on a few things and abortion has been one of them, with nothing to contradict it, probably up until about 5 seconds before he answered the question. I honestly think he hasn't actually changed but, again you're correct, you never know with him. Seems to be maybe based on his mood at that moment in time.

The other thing is his anti-free trade position.

 

[cpwill]

War protests and BLM are two different issues.

And one of the consequences of young people standing up for what was right, besides having been derided as "hippies" (see pictures above and then decide), harassed, and sometimes jailed, was that we finally and belatedly allowed the Vietnamese to have their independence that they had won from the French so many years before.

Unfortunately, the only lesson that the nation seemed to have learned was that, next time we go off on military adventures that might not be so popular at home, do it with professional soldiers. Unwilling conscripts are more likely to protest.

The Vietnamese didn't get freedom and they didn't get independence- they got conquered. They got murderous tyrany and ethnic cleansing. The hippies weren't right - they were siding with Communists. I don't see any difference between them and BLM rioters, other than you're quicker to excuse the actions of those in a cause you identify with. Those who set fire to buildings and attack security/first responders deserve it if they get shot for it.

 

[Dittohead not!]

The Vietnamese didn't get freedom and they didn't get independence- they got conquered. They got murderous tyrany and ethnic cleansing. The hippies weren't right - they were siding with Communists. I don't see any difference between them and BLM rioters, other than you're quicker to excuse the actions of those in a cause you identify with. Those who set fire to buildings and attack security/first responders deserve it if they get shot for it.

Just who is it you think "conquered" Vietnam? What foreign power went there and took over after the French, then the Americans finally left? Vietnam is now a peaceful nation, no thanks to the foreign soldiers who killed millions for the cause of ideology.

And, is that what the students at Kent State were doing, attacking security and first responders? Really?

 

[JasperL]

The Vietnamese didn't get freedom and they didn't get independence- they got conquered. They got murderous tyrany and ethnic cleansing. The hippies weren't right - they were siding with Communists. I don't see any difference between them and BLM rioters, other than you're quicker to excuse the actions of those in a cause you identify with. Those who set fire to buildings and attack security/first responders deserve it if they get shot for it.

You've got an opinion not shared by everyone and it' doesn't f'ing matter who was right or wrong. The "hippies" (and people like Cheney who avoided the draft and are IMO worse than the "hippies") had a right to protest and not get killed either way.

And the protesters weren't necessarily siding with the communists any more than people protesting the Iraq war were "siding" with Saddam and his brutal regime.