Donald is pro-sexism...

[ocean515]

The OP specifically concerns sexual harassment in the workplace. That is a lawsuit-worthy offense, and I support any targeted woman or man's right to file such a suit. Do you?

But you would have trouble supporting them if they decided to move on rather than file suit and stay?

 

[Celebrity]

I don't know what the professional workforce scene in Denmark is like but out here, if you want to keep putting food on your table, you have to work. Now, while no sane employer is going to fire you while you're suing him for sexual harassment your chances at a long and profitable career are definitely going down the tubes. What happens with such claims in this country is that your attorney sits down with the attorney for the insurance company that covers the employer. Those attorneys use a mediator and come up with a settlement that mitigates the potential cost of litigation. After that you had better walk the straight and narrow because unless the "harassment" was egregious you'll pay a distinct price any time you cross the line.

And no one can hold a candle to those who are prudent... :fueltofir

 

[Phys251]

Why waste your time? What's the point? I support their right to sue anyone for anything. I just don't understand why anyone would stay at such a company that does not support them and not leave and put up with continual crap and be miserable.

There can be a lot of reasons. Maybe they need the money. Maybe they are forced to stay, ex., Kesha.

This is a society where the employer and the customer are infinitely more important than the worker. And until that dynamic changes, this problem isn't going anywhere any time soon.

 

[RetiredUSN]

That is not what he said.. he said she should leave the company and find something else to do... which means not even fight the sexual harassment.

He had to have his son come out later to "clarify" what his father said... which was of course too late and most likely bull**** considering Trumps history.

Geeees......you really are something....................dunno what............but something.

Why stay at any company that put you in that situation?

You leave, and then sue the azzholes if you have your ducks in a row.

 

[Phys251]

If this is true, then, like the case of Roger Ailes, multiple women might be able to substantiate a stronger case. I endured sexual harassment from a homosexual man at my last job. I did not speak up until he harassed another employee at that workplace. The problem with this strategy is that it quickly begins to look like a "witch hunt" if multiple accusations are made without evidence. I think the proper way to do it is to make a single accusation, and then substantiate that particular case with testimony from multiple witnesses. Hence, I did not report the incidents I personally experienced to my boss. The incident with a third party was enough to get him to leave his job voluntarily.

The first one to break the ice and expose the harasser/abuser always has the hardest job. You mentioned the example of Roger Ailes; I cannot imagine the disgusting backlash Gretchen Carlson took from internet trolls for exposing Ailes, despite the fact that several other women immediately came forward right after that.

 

[Phys251]

But you would have trouble supporting them if they decided to move on rather than file suit and stay?

No, I never said that. I would sympathize with such a person, you know why? Because it is never the victim's fault. Ever.

 

[PirateMk1]

There can be a lot of reasons. Maybe they need the money. Maybe they are forced to stay, ex., Kesha.

This is a society where the employer and the customer are infinitely more important than the worker. And until that dynamic changes, this problem isn't going anywhere any time soon.

You write as though the people are stuck there. If they are currently employed that is the easiest time to find another better job. Why waste their time fighting? Why not spend it getting something better?

 

[Phys251]

You write as though the people are stuck there. If they are currently employed that is the easiest time to find another better job. Why waste their time fighting? Why not spend it getting something better?

Dude, I already answered this. You talk as if a harassed person can just walk away and get a new job like it's nobody's business. Truth is, it isn't always that simple. Sometimes, it's nearly impossible.

Plus, this just maintains an environment where the innocent suffer and the guilty get away with it.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Dude, I already answered this. You talk as if a harassed person can just walk away and get a new job like it's nobody's business. Truth is, it isn't always that simple. Sometimes, it's nearly impossible.

Plus, this just maintains an environment where the innocent suffer and the guilty get away with it.

This (and all the other folks who said similar).

Look, no one is more supportive and insistent that I am that there is ALWAYS a way to change your life.

But for many people, that will not be a short or easy transition. For some, it may take years of work. For some, it will require significant sacrifice, and you simply have to decide how poor you're willing to be. The way may not be acceptable in its sacrifice for some people, at some points in time (which is perfectly valid).

I am always a proponent of the idea that we own ourselves absolutely and have only the obligations we accept. But changing your course in a major way is not always easy. I have had it lead to me getting fired for whistle blowing, which culminated in me leaving the state entirely because the economy was just so horrible that I couldn't even find a burger flipping job. I have friends who were looking for a job for over a year, and every opening they went for, there were 100 other people there too, just that day alone. It was bad.

Worth it to me? Yes. I'm proud of what I did.

But it's a different set of circumstances for someone who has kids, or who's in debt, or doesn't have a place to go back to with a great economy, family, and comparatively decent in-state tuition. I could afford to look for months, find nothing, and move across the country with enough money for first couple month's rent. Not everyone can.

There's ways out of that exact same awful job even for people with those considerations. My manager, who was a single mother, found a way. But it took her longer, and her sacrifices were very different from mine. She probably wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been also impacting her daughter (who was employed there as well).

It certainly isn't as simple as "just leave." If we want people to be SUCCESSFUL in re-claiming their lives (and I don't know about PirateMk1, but personally, I do), then we have to be realistic about how we advise or help them to achieve that, rather than just saying it's all rainbows and unicorn farts. It's not. It's really ****ing hard work a lot of the time. And for some people, it's harder than for others.

 

[Gina]

Neither do you have a problem with finding another job, especially if you have one. Why would ANYONE with any self respect at all, work for assholes who look at them as a literal commodity. This of course presumes that you spoke up and told the SOB off and reported them and the company said FU to you. If they did something then, they aren't assholes by definition. If they are assholes, then what's the point of staying?

I used to think like you. Then I realized an important fact of life. My time is very valuable and I don't have much of it and it gets less everyday. Wasting it fighting morons is pointless and wasteful. I don't know about you but I have other better, things to do, like converse with you for instance.

I think fighting is worthwhile. I think it's wrong to walk away from a job, without fighting. It sends a message that piggish behavior does have consequences. And even then, it's still scary because until one puts up a fight, one doesn't know if the higher ups will be jerks, leaving a person in the position of trying to find a job while putting up with maybe worse behavior or harassment from others in the mean time.

But to suggest changing careers is the answer, out of hand, is wrong.

 

[Mycroft]

Donald Trump: I'd hope Ivanka would find new career if she were harassed - CBS News



Whhhhhhhhattt? How out of touch can one man be?

I think the proper course would be to leave the company...and then sue the **** out of the harassing company. But that's just me. You would probably counsel her to say in an untenable situation and beat her head against the wall, right?

 

[PirateMk1]

This (and all the other folks who said similar).

Look, no one is more supportive and insistent that I am that there is ALWAYS a way to change your life.

But for many people, that will not be a short or easy transition. For some, it may take years of work. For some, it will require significant sacrifice, and you simply have to decide how poor you're willing to be. The way may not be acceptable in its sacrifice for some people, at some points in time (which is perfectly valid).

I am always a proponent of the idea that we own ourselves absolutely and have only the obligations we accept. But changing your course in a major way is not always easy. I have had it lead to me getting fired for whistle blowing, which culminated in me leaving the state entirely because the economy was just so horrible that I couldn't even find a burger flipping job. I have friends who were looking for a job for over a year, and every opening they went for, there were 100 other people there too, just that day alone. It was bad.

Worth it to me? Yes. I'm proud of what I did.

But it's a different set of circumstances for someone who has kids, or who's in debt, or doesn't have a place to go back to with a great economy, family, and comparatively decent in-state tuition. I could afford to look for months, find nothing, and move across the country with enough money for first couple month's rent. Not everyone can.

There's ways out of that exact same awful job even for people with those considerations. My manager, who was a single mother, found a way. But it took her longer, and her sacrifices were very different from mine. She probably wouldn't have done it if it hadn't been also impacting her daughter (who was employed there as well).

It certainly isn't as simple as "just leave." If we want people to be SUCCESSFUL in re-claiming their lives (and I don't know about PirateMk1, but personally, I do), then we have to be realistic about how we advise or help them to achieve that, rather than just saying it's all rainbows and unicorn farts. It's not. It's really ****ing hard work a lot of the time. And for some people, it's harder than for others.

Its not all rainbows and unicorn farts. Never has been never will be. No its not easy. But the thing is change starts with you. If there was one thing I learned in this life that was it. I have been so poor I gave plasma for extra money and I am deathly afraid of needles. Now I own and run my own business and getting ready to move to a different state and go into a completely different line of business. (Restaurant business in a small town, talk about risky.) My point is that change is part of life and people should be looking to move up or out or both. I worked for Halliburton for three years. It was my best pay periods as an employee. I was netting low six digits. But I hated working for the douchebags. They were scum. That's being nice. I loved my job, I loved my crews. But I hated the people I worked for. Despised him. After three years I had transformed into a complete and utter asshole and dick with a nasty mean streak. I went on vacation came back and quit 2 weeks later. I didn't know what I was going to do at the time I just knew I didn't like who I had become. So I made a change. That was January 2006. I became my own boss. Best damn thing I ever did. I admit I had money when I quit. But that's not the first time I quit on the fly. First time I was in debt up to my ears and poor as a church mouse. That's when I had to give plasma for money. I ended up convincing my brother to cosign a loan to allow me to get driver training to drive truck. I went to school and took odd jobs and scrimped by while I learned to drive truck. I was very very poor. Damn near homeless. I ended up sleeping on my brothers couch. I nearly lost everything because I quit a crappy employer. But If I had not I don't think I would have been so poor as convince me to not ever be that poor again, and to convince myself that I could get by and not only that, thrive. I would have been content were I was. Adversity is the catalyst for improvement. I quit in September of 98. I went to work driving truck in January 99. It turned out to be a good thing.

 

[PirateMk1]

I think fighting is worthwhile. I think it's wrong to walk away from a job, without fighting. It sends a message that piggish behavior does have consequences. And even then, it's still scary because until one puts up a fight, one doesn't know if the higher ups will be jerks, leaving a person in the position of trying to find a job while putting up with maybe worse behavior or harassment from others in the mean time.

But to suggest changing careers is the answer, out of hand, is wrong.

Depends on the battle. Some battles just aren't worth the effort.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Its not all rainbows and unicorn farts. Never has been never will be. No its not easy. But the thing is change starts with you. If there was one thing I learned in this life that was it. I have been so poor I gave plasma for extra money and I am deathly afraid of needles. Now I own and run my own business and getting ready to move to a different state and go into a completely different line of business. (Restaurant business in a small town, talk about risky.) My point is that change is part of life and people should be looking to move up or out or both. I worked for Halliburton for three years. It was my best pay periods as an employee. I was netting low six digits. But I hated working for the douchebags. They were scum. That's being nice. I loved my job, I loved my crews. But I hated the people I worked for. Despised him. After three years I had transformed into a complete and utter asshole and dick with a nasty mean streak. I went on vacation came back and quit 2 weeks later. I didn't know what I was going to do at the time I just knew I didn't like who I had become. So I made a change. That was January 2006. I became my own boss. Best damn thing I ever did. I admit I had money when I quit. But that's not the first time I quit on the fly. First time I was in debt up to my ears and poor as a church mouse. That's when I had to give plasma for money. I ended up convincing my brother to cosign a loan to allow me to get driver training to drive truck. I went to school and took odd jobs and scrimped by while I learned to drive truck. I was very very poor. Damn near homeless. I ended up sleeping on my brothers couch. I nearly lost everything because I quit a crappy employer. But If I had not I don't think I would have been so poor as convince me to not ever be that poor again, and to convince myself that I could get by and not only that, thrive. I would have been content were I was. Adversity is the catalyst for improvement. I quit in September of 98. I went to work driving truck in January 99. It turned out to be a good thing.

I've done stuff like that too.

But I had no kids, no partner, no health problems, no pets, no mortgage, no obligations. I didn't have the things to deal with that a lot of other people do. Sounds like you didn't either, back then.

A woman might be a lot more afraid -- and justifiably so -- of being homeless than you were, or so poor that they're at the mercy of people they perhaps don't completely know.

I agree with you that there is no such thing as "I can't make a change to my life." But sometimes, there is "the sacrifice required, at this point in time, is not worth it to me." There is also "I lack the tools to do this myself, and I currently do not know where the tools are." And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you never convince yourself there is no way, and you keep looking for a path to making it happen with sacrifices you can accept.

Insulting people who have more or different sacrifices than you did for deciding what they can accept just shows a lack of empathy.

 

[Celebrity]

A woman might be a lot more afraid -- and justifiably so -- of being homeless than you were, or so poor that they're at the mercy of people they perhaps don't completely know.

Is that how we should solve homelessness, by being afraid of it? Allowing men to bravely wander into the grip of abject poverty does not exactly give you the high ground. Poor women don't deserve that, but we can't speak of men. After all we don't know, we can't be too sure, we always have plausible deniability.

Why is it justifiable for women to be more afraid of being homeless than men?

I'm assuming that by "justifiable" you mean there are delicate "reasons" for why women "should" be afraid and not an actual explanation for why men are homeless at a much higher rate than are women. Because I'm getting tired of the victim culture. Are people who are afraid of being victims of homelessness more victims than people who are actually homeless?

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Is that how we should solve homelessness, by being afraid of it? Allowing men to bravely wander into the grip of abject poverty does not exactly give you the high ground. Poor women don't deserve that, but we can't speak of men. After all we don't know, we can't be too sure, we always have plausible deniability.

Why is it justifiable for women to be more afraid of being homeless than men?

I'm assuming that by "justifiable" you mean there are delicate "reasons" for why women "should" be afraid and not an actual explanation for why men are homeless at a much higher rate than are women. Because I'm getting tired of the victim culture. Are people who are afraid of being victims of homelessness more victims than people who are actually homeless?

What in the hell are you even talking about?

What is wrong with someone being afraid of something where they believe there is a high risk they will be serious potential for harm? Isn't that just called "common sense" by everyone smart enough to live to adulthood?

And as it just so happens, while womens' fear of that is understandable and justifiable, men are actually at a lot more risk than most of them know.

But at any rate, being afraid of something that will probably hurt you is just called having a brain.

 

[Celebrity]

What in the hell are you even talking about?

What is wrong with someone being afraid of something where they believe there is a high risk they will be serious potential for harm? Isn't that just called "common sense" by everyone smart enough to live to adulthood?

And as it just so happens, while womens' fear of that is understandable and justifiable, men are actually at a lot more risk than most of them know.

But at any rate, being afraid of something that will probably hurt you is just called having a brain.

Ah, I see, so women have more brains than men. Isn't that ironic within the context of this thread?

 

[beerftw]

Its called voting with your feet. Business that suck to work at, have high turnover which is really expensive. Business that treat people well have lines to go to work at them. Walmart private fleet has a turnover rate of less than 1%. They have 3 openings in a fleet of 6,000. If a truck is not moving for them it is almost always down for maintenance or repair. The typical large trucking fleet this year has a turnover rate of 105% which is down from previous years. They typically have a hard time filling seats. Most of the trucks they have not operating are because they cant get a driver for it. They pay about 60,000 a year on the high end and you are never home. Walmart pays to start 82,000 and you are home at least once a week on the weekends and typically through out the week.

The trucking shortage is simply an exploitation of unsuspecting labor, through contracts. Going through companies like stevens is not bad, they pay for your school, get newish trucks, and get your foot in the door. Problem is that 60k a year seems tiny after you realize you will spend almost every day of your life on the road, with little time back home.

Pretty much everyone I have known who has worked for said companies has done the minimum two year contract, and walked away to better jobs with better pay, and even long haul truckers got way more time off to go home by switching from those companies. One guy I knew left the army and went through stevens, finished his contract, then went to another company running long haul, the pay was about the same, but he got six weeks on and two weeks off, and was reliably home on time unlike the major we have a shortage companies that promise x but have you running nonstop as far as the law will let them.

 

[PirateMk1]

I've done stuff like that too.

But I had no kids, no partner, no health problems, no pets, no mortgage, no obligations. I didn't have the things to deal with that a lot of other people do. Sounds like you didn't either, back then.

A woman might be a lot more afraid -- and justifiably so -- of being homeless than you were, or so poor that they're at the mercy of people they perhaps don't completely know.

I agree with you that there is no such thing as "I can't make a change to my life." But sometimes, there is "the sacrifice required, at this point in time, is not worth it to me." There is also "I lack the tools to do this myself, and I currently do not know where the tools are." And there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you never convince yourself there is no way, and you keep looking for a path to making it happen with sacrifices you can accept.

Insulting people who have more or different sacrifices than you did for deciding what they can accept just shows a lack of empathy.

IF and that's a big if people are offended at what I say, then I say this, too bad. The truth hurts get used to it. That said if your not willing to take the chance to make the sacrifice then you are doomed to your lot in life. How bad do things have to be to make a change? And that I believe is some of the truism that Trump is speaking of and I am speaking of. Life happens whether you are ready or not. The real question is do you have the intestinal fortitude to change with it. You speak to me of empathy. If I lacked it I wouldn't give rats ass about anyone and not respond at all or offer my opinion. That's lack of empathy.

 

[PirateMk1]

The trucking shortage is simply an exploitation of unsuspecting labor, through contracts. Going through companies like stevens is not bad, they pay for your school, get newish trucks, and get your foot in the door. Problem is that 60k a year seems tiny after you realize you will spend almost every day of your life on the road, with little time back home.

Pretty much everyone I have known who has worked for said companies has done the minimum two year contract, and walked away to better jobs with better pay, and even long haul truckers got way more time off to go home by switching from those companies. One guy I knew left the army and went through stevens, finished his contract, then went to another company running long haul, the pay was about the same, but he got six weeks on and two weeks off, and was reliably home on time unlike the major we have a shortage companies that promise x but have you running nonstop as far as the law will let them.

A lot of what you say is true. There are companies whose business model is based on the turnover. I put most of it to crappy management though. Take a look at Walmart. They have one of the largest private fleets in the US yet they have a turnover rate of less than a percent. There is something to be said about good management and good policy.

 

[beerftw]

A lot of what you say is true. There are companies whose business model is based on the turnover. I put most of it to crappy management though. Take a look at Walmart. They have one of the largest private fleets in the US yet they have a turnover rate of less than a percent. There is something to be said about good management and good policy.

Problem is companies like walmart demand experience, pretty much every local delivery does. Other problem is that experience usually requires long haul, and most long haul companies will not hire without experience. So this leaves companies like stevens, who exploits the fact they need experience, and locks them in a contract so they can not bolt after leaving school or a few months on the road.

The better companies require experience because experienced drivers run away asap from other companies. If companies like stevens had never existed, people would be starting out with better companies.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Ah, I see, so women have more brains than men. Isn't that ironic within the context of this thread?

What? Are you saying men aren't afraid of anything?

Seriously, what on earth goes on in your head?

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

IF and that's a big if people are offended at what I say, then I say this, too bad. The truth hurts get used to it. That said if your not willing to take the chance to make the sacrifice then you are doomed to your lot in life. How bad do things have to be to make a change? And that I believe is some of the truism that Trump is speaking of and I am speaking of. Life happens whether you are ready or not. The real question is do you have the intestinal fortitude to change with it. You speak to me of empathy. If I lacked it I wouldn't give rats ass about anyone and not respond at all or offer my opinion. That's lack of empathy.

But it's not "the truth," and I said nothing about being "offended." It just shows a lack of ability to relate to people, or understand that some people weigh their lives differently than you do, and not understanding that you have no right to tell them that's invalid. That's just being childish, not "offensive."

Empathy and self-righteousness are not the same thing.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Donald Trump: I'd hope Ivanka would find new career if she were harassed - CBS News



Whhhhhhhhattt? How out of touch can one man be?

As opposed to sit and take it - which is what a lot of women DO. Why ever would you disagree?

I don't think your'e disagreeing - I think you're jsut looking at sexual harassment as something that can be FIXED, when often it CANNOT.

A lot of women who are sexually harassed by their employer or other coworkers just tolerate it. Many women are trapped based on a lack of job availability and have little recourse when this happens. Report it - to whom? When it's your higher-up doing the harassing what is your recourse? If you pursue any sort of legal counter action you might very quickly find yourself OUT OF A JOB - FIRED.

And only if you have MONEY can you really take anyone to court over such a situation.

AND you have to build a case against someone.

Though we have legal support to protect women from such things, it doesn't mean that a woman being sexually harassed at her career workplace have the freedom to address these things, legally.

So - damn straight he better want her to flip the bird and hit the road. Fortunately for HER, she can AFFORD that. Many women CANNOT.

So good for rich Ivonka, she has a husband who can support her. Her having a career is an option, not a requirement . . . doesn't matter.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

Who has greater resources and therefore greater ability to just leave a job than the average woman.

Which is why the example would work for her specifically. If I'm talking about what I would want any given family member to do, I'm certainly going to expect most people's situations to be considerably different from the person being discussed.