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Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more on

Masterhawk

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People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.

More on what? Your title seems unfinished.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

U got 2 have gd grammar if U wnt a job.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.

Perhaps they did not learn grammar if it must later be taught (or corrected). ;)
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.

I think so. Grammar doesn't really need to be taught extensively, provided you are hearing it being used correctly, frequently, during your formative childhood years.

To be honest, my own explicit teaching on grammar was fairly limited. I know the parts of speech and bits here and there, but I don't know any of the more complex terminology. I don't see any reason anyone would need to know that unless they're going into linguistics, in which case it should be a high school elective or a college course.

Despite knowing almost none of the terminology for what exactly I'm doing, I still know how to convert a word even if I've never heard it before, I know what part of speech it belongs to, and I can often correctly guess the basic meaning of an unfamiliar word by looking at its structure. That's a product of hearing correct grammar, frequently, as a young child. I don't think that by-rote teaching can replace that.

If a child still does not understand how to fluidly employ correct grammar at 15, making them fill in blanks in their junior year of high school isn't going to solve the issue. That represents a failure of their early education which is very difficult to correct for. The first few years of life are the most important when it comes to understanding language.

Learning the terminology is something only useful to people who already have an extensive, intuitive grasp of grammar, and who are going into a field that requires them to be able to describe it in detail.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.

Grammar is hardly taught and SHOULD be taught more.

Grammar is core to adequate communication. It's astounding how few people have a decent grasp on basic sentence structure and punctuation.

Further, not everyone continues on to college. Putting any facet of basic education off on the perchance that they might is foolish and ignorant.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

Grammar is hardly taught and SHOULD be taught more.

Grammar is core to adequate communication. It's astounding how few people have a decent grasp on basic sentence structure and punctuation.

Further, not everyone continues on to college. Putting any facet of basic education off on the perchance that they might is foolish and ignorant.

It should be heavily focused on in grade school. In junior high, have them start writing papers and in high school, only focus on proper grammar and how to write papers
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

It should be heavily focused on in grade school. In junior high, have them start writing papers and in high school, only focus on proper grammar and how to write papers

If only they did so little, these days.

The only experience I had in public school with grammar was a 9-week period during the 5th grade. We went over the basics. Entirely useless for me once I did get to college.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

It should be heavily focused on in grade school. In junior high, have them start writing papers and in high school, only focus on proper grammar and how to write papers

This is why bonehead English is now part of freshman year at every US university.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

My son's 7th grade English teacher said that grammar and spelling were social constructs and all that was really important is your ideas. I spent a week writing sentences where because of spelling, punctuation, grammar, or using the wrong word the sentence was unclear or totally ridiculous. My son and I also discussed the fact that you can think about chairs, dogs, and anvils with pictures. To think about honesty, decency, responsibility, and other abstract topics requires language and if you can't use language well you can't think about the serious issues well.

At one point, I tested all of my employees for reading ability. Twenty-five percent were functionally illiterate. All were high school graduates, most had some college and a few had college degrees. I had two employees with master's degrees who couldn't write a simple paragraph. I asked one what a sentence was and after thought he said, "A bunch of words with a period at the end." So much for learning grammar.
 

_Sal

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I think so. Grammar doesn't really need to be taught extensively, provided you are hearing it being used correctly, frequently, during your formative childhood years.

To be honest, my own explicit teaching on grammar was fairly limited. I know the parts of speech and bits here and there, but I don't know any of the more complex terminology. I don't see any reason anyone would need to know that unless they're going into linguistics, in which case it should be a high school elective or a college course.

Despite knowing almost none of the terminology for what exactly I'm doing, I still know how to convert a word even if I've never heard it before, I know what part of speech it belongs to, and I can often correctly guess the basic meaning of an unfamiliar word by looking at its structure. That's a product of hearing correct grammar, frequently, as a young child. I don't think that by-rote teaching can replace that.

If a child still does not understand how to fluidly employ correct grammar at 15, making them fill in blanks in their junior year of high school isn't going to solve the issue. That represents a failure of their early education which is very difficult to correct for. The first few years of life are the most important when it comes to understanding language.

Learning the terminology is something only useful to people who already have an extensive, intuitive grasp of grammar, and who are going into a field that requires them to be able to describe it in detail.
I fully agree

even in grade school I found it relatively easy to fill in the blanks and to conjugate a verb, it was intuitive because my parents although not highly educated when first arriving in Canada none the less spoke well

communicating well and precisely is important

but

ability to think is also involved and grammar plays an important part
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I fully agree

even in grade school I found it relatively easy to fill in the blanks and to conjugate a verb, it was intuitive because my parents although not highly educated when first arriving in Canada none the less spoke well

communicating well and precisely is important

but

ability to think is also involved and grammar plays an important part

Yup, me too. I think the key to this is that we need to be reading/speaking "above" young children's level more often, and encouraging them to ask us questions. My poor dad reading LotR to me at 4 was stopping every third word for my questions, but that never stopped him. :lol:

This is how we're teaching second languages too, now-a-days, because we've finally realized that it's much harder to learn a language when you're trying to turn it into a math equation. Our brains are built to learn language by immersion. As long as you got lots of challenging language exposure in your first few years of life, those wires for language will always be there to help you learn.

When I was tutoring, I could tell which kids had that growing up, and which ones didn't.

I had many students who struggled with grammar. I got very creative trying to find ways to help them, but for some, it never became natural for them because their early language-building years were so deprived.

On the other hand, I once had a guy who was an absolute disaster with punctuation, but I could tell from the rest of his writing that he did understand language intuitively, broadly speaking. He had just somehow managed to get through mandatory education without a teacher ever taking the time to explain punctuation. I don't know how the **** that happens, but it does. He took plenty of fill-in-the-blank grammar tests, but that never helped him.

Because he already had the wires in place, it took only one session for me to teach him. We spent the entire lesson just talking, inserting punctuation where it goes in speech. Once he understood that rhythms of speech translate into punctuation, he had it within 20 minutes. When he brought me back his revised papers, they were near-perfect.

Years of fill-in-the-blank and by-rote teaching of language allowed him to graduate without ever learning where a simple period goes. But 20 minutes of guided conversation was all it took to get him there.
 

_Sal

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

Yup, me too. I think the key to this is that we need to be reading/speaking "above" young children's level more often, and encouraging them to ask us questions. My poor dad reading LotR to me at 4 was stopping every third word for my questions, but that never stopped him. :lol:

This is how we're teaching second languages too, now-a-days, because we've finally realized that it's much harder to learn a language when you're trying to turn it into a math equation. Our brains are built to learn language by immersion. As long as you got lots of challenging language exposure in your first few years of life, those wires for language will always be there to help you learn.

When I was tutoring, I could tell which kids had that growing up, and which ones didn't.

I had many students who struggled with grammar. I got very creative trying to find ways to help them, but for some, it never became natural for them because their early language-building years were so deprived.

On the other hand, I once had a guy who was an absolute disaster with punctuation, but I could tell from the rest of his writing that he did understand language intuitively, broadly speaking. He had just somehow managed to get through mandatory education without a teacher ever taking the time to explain punctuation. I don't know how the **** that happens, but it does. He took plenty of fill-in-the-blank grammar tests, but that never helped him.

Because he already had the wires in place, it took only one session for me to teach him. We spent the entire lesson just talking, inserting punctuation where it goes in speech. Once he understood that rhythms of speech translate into punctuation, he had it within 20 minutes. When he brought me back his revised papers, they were near-perfect.

Years of fill-in-the-blank and by-rote teaching of language allowed him to graduate without ever learning where a simple period goes. But 20 minutes of guided conversation was all it took to get him there.

that is brilliant teaching

intuitive teaching :mrgreen:

kudos to you

I am glad he ran into you, it literally changed his life

intuition is discarded too quickly by some in favour of facts...but intuition is based upon fact

I also believe language is inherent, at least to a degree, not completely of course but we are not all born equal

I am also frequently amazed at the depth and complexity of analysis some individual are capable of who possess learning challenges easily identified by their writing skills. Some truly brilliant people frequently drop-outs and later in life immensely successful.

That will become less though as we require evidence of higher levels of education just to be hired.

Our society will truly lose something as we move forward.

It's a double edged sword.
 

SmokeAndMirrors

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

that is brilliant teaching

intuitive teaching :mrgreen:

kudos to you

I am glad he ran into you, it literally changed his life

intuition is discarded too quickly by some in favour of facts...but intuition is based upon fact

I also believe language is inherent, at least to a degree, not completely of course but we are not all born equal

I am also frequently amazed at the depth and complexity of analysis some individual are capable of who possess learning challenges easily identified by their writing skills. Some truly brilliant people frequently drop-outs and later in life immensely successful.

That will become less though as we require evidence of higher levels of education just to be hired.

Our society will truly lose something as we move forward.

It's a double edged sword.

Aw, thanks. :3 But really, whoever taught him spoken language deserves as much of that credit as I do.

If he hadn't had an intuitive understanding of language, it would have been much harder for him to learn the technical skill of using punctuation. That intuitive, spoken understanding has to be there before someone will be able to truly understand conjugation, punctuation, and writing in general. Writing is a technical code we use to record speech, essentially. That's where basic lessons in grammar are useful: learning to write.

Language is definitely inherent. Babies who are totally deprived of language will actually grow up to be mentally retarded. That's how important it is to us, in terms of developing our minds. And the best way to learn it is to be immersed by it.

Technical teaching has its place, especially in writing. But we have to immerse the brain to train it for intuitive learning first and foremost. Intuitive language is just problem-solving.

I think our society is already starting to fight back against the piece-of-paper mindset of judging who is qualified. After all, I was teaching college students... and I have no degree. ;)
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

Aw, thanks. :3 But really, whoever taught him spoken language deserves as much of that credit as I do.

If he hadn't had an intuitive understanding of language, it would have been much harder for him to learn the technical skill of using punctuation. That intuitive, spoken understanding has to be there before someone will be able to truly understand conjugation, punctuation, and writing in general. Writing is a technical code we use to record speech, essentially. That's where basic lessons in grammar are useful: learning to write.

Language is definitely inherent. Babies who are totally deprived of language will actually grow up to be mentally retarded. That's how important it is to us, in terms of developing our minds. And the best way to learn it is to be immersed by it.

Technical teaching has its place, especially in writing. But we have to immerse the brain to train it for intuitive learning first and foremost. Intuitive language is just problem-solving.

I think our society is already starting to fight back against the piece-of-paper mindset of judging who is qualified. After all, I was teaching college students... and I have no degree. ;)

:thumbs: I hope you are right
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

People learn grammar when they're in grade school but now they have to keep learning it when they're at the higher levels.

Going by the grammar often used on this forum, I would say that they don't give it enough of a focus in High School.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I think we should do away with education altogether because it limits the minds of young people.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

Going by the grammar often used on this forum, I would say that they don't give it enough of a focus in High School.

who says teachers can't downgrade papers for improper grammar?
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

More on what? Your title seems unfinished.

Some people learn to recognize incomplete sentences in school and some
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

who says teachers can't downgrade papers for improper grammar?

Me. When my son showed me a paper he wrote in junior high I laughed and said, "You can do better than this. The spelling, punctuation, and grammar are horrible." He explained none of that mattered because it was for a history class. I said that they still count off for that. No they don't.

So, I went and asked the principal. He said my son was correct. He said the only class where spelling, punctuation, and grammar matter is English class. "The English teacher can't grade papers for all the teachers." Can't the history teacher to that. After a pause the principal said, "No." Aha!

Of course, my son's English teacher also told him that grammar, punctuation, and spelling were cultural constructs and didn't matter so I'm not sure she could grade the papers, either.

When I first became a police officer confessions were handwritten by the criminal. We had to stop that because we got too many, including college students, who couldn't write a confession.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I am a glaring example of why grammar needs to be pushed much harder by our educators, and early as possible. I am horrible with it sometimes and I know it. It never held me back as far making a very decent living, but I do wish that I had been a better student.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I don't think it needs to be taught less -- I think it needs to be taught differently.

No one learns a damn thing from diagramming sentences or knowing which part of a sentence is a subordinate clause or independent clause. People learn how to write properly when they know how to SPEAK properly.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

I don't think it needs to be taught less -- I think it needs to be taught differently.

No one learns a damn thing from diagramming sentences or knowing which part of a sentence is a subordinate clause or independent clause. People learn how to write properly when they know how to SPEAK properly.

That is correct, however circa @ 2016 demanding that there be any standards met, that there be any "proper", tends to get one into trouble, especially in the area of speech patterns.
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

It should be heavily focused on in grade school. In junior high, have them start writing papers and in high school, only focus on proper grammar and how to write papers

That is what happens already...
 

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Re: Do you think high school english classes should stop focusing on grammar and more

If you want to learn grammar, just read a crap ton. Then you'll be doing it without the instructions.
 
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