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Do you support marriage for gay and transgender people?

Do you support gay and transgender marriage?

  • Gay marriage ok, transgender not

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    183

it's just me

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Some of these churches that take donations have pastors that live in million dollar homes and fly private jets

It's one hell of a scam and it's a business.
Most churches get by on pennies and can barely keep the lights on.

Our tithes that don't pay the light bill go to Africa. Do you have a problem with us supporting Africa?
 

it's just me

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Here's the fact that makes your entire point nonsense. Churches have zero rights to be a 501(c). They are legally allowed to because of the secular US tax code. All of your claims stand on that one fallacy. The only religious rights in America are protection from an established religion and a general right to worship as one pleases. Neither of these rights are absolute.

Then your right to remain silent is not absolute. As a matter of fact, if no rights are absolute then you have no rights.
 

roguenuke

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Some of these churches that take donations have pastors that live in million dollar homes and fly private jets

It's one hell of a scam and it's a business
I'm not arguing at all about that part. I'm saying that whether they perform any sort of weddings, what ceremonies they do or don't perform for what people, what groups should have no bearing whatsoever on whether they are tax exempt.

And most likely, the only people that those million dollar preachers are performing weddings for (if any at all) are really famous people. I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't agree to perform a wedding for anyone below the poverty line or even the millionaire line unless there was some publicity in it for them.
 

roguenuke

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Prove it.

There have been no requirements or petition signings or fines forced on me.

Now, there could be some jackass who'd get triggered and try to demolish my personal and professional life so there'd be some motivating factors that could FEEL like requirements.

Of course, one might say it'd be so much easier to do whatever the Left tells you to do and life would be easier. Sure, compliance is always an easy way out, but it wipes out our freedoms, and I'm not going to put up with that.

No, I'm just going to stick to what I think is right and be a lot happier.
If Adam and Eve existed, they would have to be from the same DNA according to the story of the Bible. We don't have to prove this is likely, since there is plenty of evidence against it.

Prove Harry Potter doesn't exist. Prove the Wizarding World or the world of "Toys" doesn't exist.
 

roguenuke

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Most churches get by on pennies and can barely keep the lights on.

Our tithes that don't pay the light bill go to Africa. Do you have a problem with us supporting Africa?
I have an issue with missionary work in Africa basically being used as "here have some food and medicine while we basically bribe you to learn about and believe in our God, our religion". It takes advantage of people who don't know any better, are desperate and starving to promote and spread a certain religion.
 

it's just me

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I'm not arguing at all about that part. I'm saying that whether they perform any sort of weddings, what ceremonies they do or don't perform for what people, what groups should have no bearing whatsoever on whether they are tax exempt.

And most likely, the only people that those million dollar preachers are performing weddings for (if any at all) are really famous people. I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't agree to perform a wedding for anyone below the poverty line or even the millionaire line unless there was some publicity in it for them.

Here's the thing: we have a book of rituals (church services, prayer meetings, Holy days, etc.) They are written to conform to Church doctrine, and they are authorized for our use by the Archbishop. There is no "gay marriage" rite in there, so I couldn't perform one if I wanted to because if I changed an authorized rite it wouldn't be valid, so if you want something that I can't provide I'll send you to the courthouse. So that's that.

At least in my Church we had food and necessities pantries where we had cleaning supplies and paper goods and whatever food we could bring in for distribution to whoever needs it. If we get a tax break it's because we are a charity, NOT A BUSINESS.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Just restating it for the Church haters.
 

vegas giants

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I'm not arguing at all about that part. I'm saying that whether they perform any sort of weddings, what ceremonies they do or don't perform for what people, what groups should have no bearing whatsoever on whether they are tax exempt.

And most likely, the only people that those million dollar preachers are performing weddings for (if any at all) are really famous people. I'm willing to bet that they wouldn't agree to perform a wedding for anyone below the poverty line or even the millionaire line unless there was some publicity in it for them.
I'm just making the case that this is a business and laws that apply to businesses should apply to them
 

vegas giants

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Most churches get by on pennies and can barely keep the lights on.

Our tithes that don't pay the light bill go to Africa. Do you have a problem with us supporting Africa?
The pope seems to live in a nice place. Lol
 

roguenuke

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Here's the thing: we have a book of rituals (church services, prayer meetings, Holy days, etc.) They are written to conform to Church doctrine, and they are authorized for our use by the Archbishop. There is no "gay marriage" rite in there, so I couldn't perform one if I wanted to because if I changed an authorized rite it wouldn't be valid, so if you want something that I can't provide I'll send you to the courthouse. So that's that.

At least in my Church we had food and necessities pantries where we had cleaning supplies and paper goods and whatever food we could bring in for distribution to whoever needs it. If we get a tax break it's because we are a charity, NOT A BUSINESS.

One thing has nothing to do with the other. Just restating it for the Church haters.
This is not about your church. This is not about any specific church or religion at all. It is about religions being able to choose who and which rites they perform for anyone, without the government interfering.

My officiant had a book of wedding ceremonies to help couples decide what they wanted. She was a Navy wife who did weddings for extra money for her family. I've seen several people get ordained online just to be able to perform weddings for friends. The only part any of them play in an official marriage is acting as a voluntary signatory to the document, which benefits the state on its own. There is no reason to use the ability to refuse any weddings, for any reason as some sort of justification for removing taxes from churches or individuals.

Now, if it is a government employee they should always have to perform weddings for anyone who legally can marry because that is part of their job, at least a reason the government is paying them, or a business specifically for weddings, as in a wedding chapel, should have to conform to the same laws as any other business does, including public accommodation laws.
 

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I'm just making the case that this is a business and laws that apply to businesses should apply to them
They're not a business, they are a church. If you want to make the case that specific churches act like businesses (the "megachurches" or Scientology or a few others come to mind), then that is a completely separate issue than churches refusing service for any marriages or other rites.
 

vegas giants

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They're not a business, they are a church. If you want to make the case that specific churches act like businesses (the "megachurches" or Scientology or a few others come to mind), then that is a completely separate issue than churches refusing service for any marriages or other rites.
Dude you keep getting stuck. This is like saying they are not a person....they are a slave.

A church takes in revenue for the services they provide.


That's a business. Freedom of religion is not absolute. They can pay taxes and follow business laws
 

roguenuke

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Dude you keep getting stuck. This is like saying they are not a person....they are a slave.

A church takes in revenue for the services they provide.


That's a business. Freedom of religion is not absolute. They can pay taxes and follow business laws
All nonprofits take in revenue. They get donations. The girl scouts get tax exemption but they sell cookies. The boy scouts get tax exemption and take in revenue from several sources. Like churches though, their revenue is supposed to go to a certain degree to their "cause".

Churches should not have to follow business laws, as they are not a business. Most of their "profit" comes from donations. Unlike a business, a church could not sue someone for not donating to them.
 

vegas giants

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All nonprofits take in revenue. They get donations. The girl scouts get tax exemption but they sell cookies. The boy scouts get tax exemption and take in revenue from several sources. Like churches though, their revenue is supposed to go to a certain degree to their "cause".

Churches should not have to follow business laws, as they are not a business. Most of their "profit" comes from donations. Unlike a business, a church could not sue someone for not donating to them.
They serve the public so public accommodation laws should apply. Their cause is often making church leadership live lavish lifestyles. If a US cardinal can afford to live in a mansion then they can afford to pay taxes
 

roguenuke

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They serve the public so public accommodation laws should apply. Their cause is often making church leadership live lavish lifestyles. If a US cardinal can afford to live in a mansion then they can afford to pay taxes
No, public accommodation laws should not apply to churches. It doesn't matter what you believe their cause is. They are a church, not a business.

I don't care what the Pope or Cardinal have, this is about the right to freedom of religion. There is just far too much freedom taken away to allow the government to interfere with churches, including through taxation. Just as I believe that churches should stay out of government, stay out of politicking and laws, so too should government stay out of churches and religion.
 

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No, public accommodation laws should not apply to churches. It doesn't matter what you believe their cause is. They are a church, not a business.

I don't care what the Pope or Cardinal have, this is about the right to freedom of religion. There is just far too much freedom taken away to allow the government to interfere with churches, including through taxation. Just as I believe that churches should stay out of government, stay out of politicking and laws, so too should government stay out of churches and religion.
They are a business. You can freely practice religion and pay taxes and accommodate the public fairly. Your freedom of religion has limits. You can not do whatever you want with your church and simply claim freedom of religion
 

roguenuke

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They are a business. You can freely practice religion and pay taxes and accommodate the public fairly. Your freedom of religion has limits. You can not do whatever you want with your church and simply claim freedom of religion
No, they are not. Churches, most churches, are not businesses. Nor should they ever have to accommodate the public "fairly".

You can do almost anything within the law, as in pretty much anything you could do within your own home as a church.
 

vegas giants

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No, they are not. Churches, most churches, are not businesses. Nor should they ever have to accommodate the public "fairly".

You can do almost anything within the law, as in pretty much anything you could do within your own home as a church.
If they take in revenue for services provided they are a business

Business laws should apply
 

dixon01767

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Dude you keep getting stuck. This is like saying they are not a person....they are a slave.

A church takes in revenue for the services they provide.


That's a business. Freedom of religion is not absolute. They can pay taxes and follow business laws

Non profit businesses dont have to pay taxes in the US.
 

Aunt Antifa

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Heights of absurdity to argue that marriage never had anything to do with any of these things and is instead for couples who rub genitals and want to shack up together can form a legal, family relationship.

Has marriage ceased being about those things now that people who just like to rub genitals together can also get married? I don’t understand why others having sex with a marriage license keeps you from living a married life as you see fit.
 

roguenuke

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If they take in revenue for services provided they are a business

Business laws should apply
They are not making a legitimate profit. They are not a business.

There are some obvious exceptions when it comes to this, such as some of the practices that Scientology does/utilizes and perhaps a few other religions, but again that has nothing to do with weddings, ceremonies where they customarily take a donation. That is no different than a family member that you agree to perform a wedding for giving you a gift for your time, paying for your expenses for performing their ceremony.
 

vegas giants

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They are not making a legitimate profit. They are not a business.

There are some obvious exceptions when it comes to this, such as some of the practices that Scientology does/utilizes and perhaps a few other religions, but again that has nothing to do with weddings, ceremonies where they customarily take a donation. That is no different than a family member that you agree to perform a wedding for giving you a gift for your time, paying for your expenses for performing their ceremony.
The catholic church has billions. Priceless art works and jewels. Their cardinals live like kings.


Profit by any other name is profit.
 

roguenuke

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The catholic church has billions. Priceless art works and jewels. Their cardinals live like kings.


Profit by any other name is profit.
That they've had for a very long time for the most part, from when they were actually part of the government. You are basically proposing punishing them for past wealth. But in reality, so long as they have no say in government, they should also not be taxed. I will easily take that tradeoff.
 
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