Do they hate women?[W:571]

[Gina]

Re: Do they hate women?

Hi Gina. :2wave: Can I ask you, can you understand why abortion bothers us? Do you feel there's any point during the pregnancy that abortion rights should be restricted?

Hi X!

Of course you can ask. I just replied with a portion of the answer to your question. First, yes, I do understand why it bothers you. And I respect that.

As I posted below, viability, as stated in Roe v. Wade. Below that the fetus cannot survive without the mother and is not completely developed. Beyond that, if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has severe health issues that will cause death in utero, during or shortly after birth. Extreme conditions. I cannot accept abortion on demand past viability.

88% of abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

That's substantial and well before viability. 3.8% are done in 16-20 week range.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: Do they hate women?

Where is your money, bro?

My money is where my mouth is. Had I caused an unplanned pregnancy, I would have been willing to pay the medical bills and take full custody.

 

[Henrin]

Re: Do they hate women?

My money is where my mouth is. Had I caused an unplanned pregnancy, I would have been willing to pay the medical bills and take full custody.

That is not what I meant. :2razz: I just think it's funny it's "shut the hell up" and then "pay up"

 

[Gina]

Re: Do they hate women?

If you agree with that then you also need to acknowledge that viability is regularly pushed earlier and earlier in pregnancy due to medical advances.

I do recognize that and having experienced a 26 week birth in my extended family, which is considered a super-preemie and just past the line where profound health issues do occur and greatly reduce the chance of survival, I know what recent medical advances are capable of. Viability, in the references I can find, is generally recognized at 24 weeks, having been reduced from 28 weeks at the time of the ruling. I could be wrong about that statement as to the ruling, but it was put to my family, that every day past 25 weeks, drastically improved survivability without major health issues.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Do they hate women?

Hi X!

Of course you can ask. I just replied with a portion of the answer to your question. First, yes, I do understand why it bothers you. And I respect that.

As I posted below, viability, as stated in Roe v. Wade. Below that the fetus cannot survive without the mother and is not completely developed. Beyond that, if the mother's life is in danger or the fetus has severe health issues that will cause death in utero, during or shortly after birth. Extreme conditions. I cannot accept abortion on demand past viability.

88% of abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks.

Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States

That's substantial and well before viability. 3.8% are done in 16-20 week range.

At about 6 weeks, the heartbeat can be detected.

When is the earliest you can see a heartbeat on ultrasound?
At about six weeks into pregnancy (four weeks from conception), you should be able to see your baby's heartbeat on ultrasound. The typical heart rate at this age is about 100 beats per minute. As your pregnancy progresses, your baby's average heartbeat will be between 120 and 160 beats per minute.

When Should I See My Baby's Heartbeat on Ultrasound?

I'm not trying to change your beliefs, Gina, just explain mine.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Do they hate women?

I do recognize that and having experienced a 26 week birth in my extended family, which is considered a super-preemie and just past the line where profound health issues do occur and greatly reduce the chance of survival, I know what recent medical advances are capable of. Viability, in the references I can find, is generally recognized at 24 weeks, having been reduced from 28 weeks at the time of the ruling. I could be wrong about that statement as to the ruling, but it was put to my family, that every day past 25 weeks, drastically improved survivability without major health issues.

Right. and that's why so many of us are pushing for restrictions at an earlier point in pregnancy. If, at 18 weeks, that baby has a less than 10% chance at survival and waiting 2-4 weeks means that the chances go up to 50-60% then the arbitrary termination of that pregnancy is unwarranted. If, for example, you were ill and administering an antibiotic could save you as long as you got it for 4 more weeks then would we be warranted in just cutting you off now because we didn't feel like waiting?

 

[Gina]

Re: Do they hate women?

Ok, does your agreement with laws restricting the woman's right to chose after a certain point mean that you hate women and women's rights?

I think you know the answer to that question X, especially since I didn't ascribe hatred to those seeking to limit abortion.

 

[Gina]

Re: Do they hate women?

Right. and that's why so many of us are pushing for restrictions at an earlier point in pregnancy. If, at 18 weeks, that baby has a less than 10% chance at survival and waiting 2-4 weeks means that the chances go up to 50-60% then the arbitrary termination of that pregnancy is unwarranted. If, for example, you were ill and administering an antibiotic could save you as long as you got it for 4 more weeks then would we be warranted in just cutting you off now because we didn't feel like waiting?

Why is it arbitrary? The fetus is not viable and cannot survive outside the womb at 18 weeks. In order survive, we are talking about artificial uteri. There are only "incubators" now and there are limits to what can be achieved by medical intervention when the fetus is so undeveloped as to be incapable of existing without the support of the mother's body.

What are you suggesting by using the word "waiting"? I'm not getting that.

 

[X Factor]

Re: Do they hate women?

I think you know the answer to that question X, especially since I didn't ascribe hatred to those seeking to limit abortion.

I do know, of course. You did indicate it was probably a lack of respect for women's reproductive rights. Can you see how that's not neccesarily the case? You certainly respect reproductive rights, I know. Even so, you still feel, at some point, that the fetus's right to live trumps the woman's right to choose. This most often is true, also, for those who seek to tougher restrictions on abortion. If the law was changed tomorrow, making abortion on demand legal right up through the 40th week, wouldn't you be one of those advocating more restrictive abortion laws?

You totally do not have to reply. Just something to think about.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

People who are actively working to get stricter abortion laws ---- do you think they hate women?

well thats not a yes no question
many pro-life people dont "HATE" women, i doubt many do
many pro-life people dont care about women or value them less
many pro-life people dont even think about the woman and only focus on the ZEF

and many pro-life people probably dont fit anywhere in those groups, its an individual thing, not a blanket

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

More value? Hell, we're simply trying to get equal value.

1.) equal value for either is imossible
2.) the vast majority of views i see here are factually not trying to be close to equal

but i dont know you or your views so im curious if you were in charge what would you do, what would the laws be

 

[X Factor]

Re: Do they hate women?

well thats no a yes no question
many pro-life people dont "HATE" women, i doubt many do
many pro-life people dont care about women or value them less
many pro-life people dont even think about the woman and only focus on the ZEF

and many pro-life people probably dont fit anywhere, its an individual thing, not a blanket

Thanks, AJ. We don't hate women, we just don't care about women and value them less. :roll:

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

From you quote above: We do not put more value on the baby. We just believe the baby has a right to live. The baby can't speak for itself, somebody must. It's not more value, it is simply giving value.

which in turn values the ZEF more

one will always be valued more and GIVING it value takes value away from the woman and vice versa, just how reality it, be nice if it wasnt but it is

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

That is correct.

except its false
its factually impossible to value you them equal in law and rights

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

To desire or seek the death of an innocent person is the ultimate act of hate.

Abortion is an act of hate. You cannot willingly have any part in it without hate. You cannot defend this evil practice without hate.

false
millions of people disagree with your opinion

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Do they hate women?

Why is it arbitrary? The fetus is not viable and cannot survive outside the womb at 18 weeks. In order survive, we are talking about artificial uteri. There are only "incubators" now and there are limits to what can be achieved by medical intervention when the fetus is so undeveloped as to be incapable of existing without the support of the mother's body.

What are you suggesting by using the word "waiting"? I'm not getting that.

By "waiting" I'm suggesting that if I could increase your chance of survival from 10% to 50% by providing you necessary medication for 4 weeks it would be unwarranted for me to withhold that medication simply because I didn't feel like providing it during that period. Taking it one step farther, if I was the one who who cause you to become ill and I was the only one who could provide that medication I would need to have a damned good reason for not continuing to hand it over, right?

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Do they hate women?

I do recognize that and having experienced a 26 week birth in my extended family, which is considered a super-preemie and just past the line where profound health issues do occur and greatly reduce the chance of survival, I know what recent medical advances are capable of. Viability, in the references I can find, is generally recognized at 24 weeks, having been reduced from 28 weeks at the time of the ruling. I could be wrong about that statement as to the ruling, but it was put to my family, that every day past 25 weeks, drastically improved survivability without major health issues.

In my extended family it went totally the opposite direction. In fact, it was just about as bad as it could have been. The doctors already knew there was going to be impossible disability if the child were to live. The prospective mother and father at first decided to abort the fetus. The family and extended family supported whatever decision the parents made. Their church talked them into not aborting. There's no other way around saying that. It is what changed their mind.

The baby was born just before 26 weeks. We all already knew it was going to be very, very, very bad if the child lived. It did, for 3 weeks. Saying that the child was severely disabled would be a terribly positive statement. It was heart breaking. It was devastating. It was also astronomically expensive even after insurance. The parents lost their house and later filed bankruptcy. The church said it was God's will and brought canned food. :roll: In less than a year the couple divorced.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

Thanks, AJ. We don't hate women, we just don't care about women and value them less. :roll:

guess you skipped the last line that says also many dont fit anywhere in there and its an individual thing, not a blanket?
you certainly get emotional on this topic and are very unlike yourself on it, no biggie though

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Re: Do they hate women?

The idea that there is even a shred of humanity in any of the monotheistic cults requires hallucinogens to believe.

I have never, in my entire half-century of life, taken any hallucinogenic drug, nor is it likely that I ever will. I think the same can safely be said of the vast majority of others who have monotheistic faiths.

I remark such as this does nothing more than expose an amazing degree of ignorance and bigotry on your part. Not surprising, really. Most of you on the far wrong certainly harbor exactly this sort of ignorance and bigotry, though most are not quite so outrageous and open about it.

 

[SgtRock]

Re: Do they hate women?

Texas passed new abortion law which restricts abortions to 20 weeks. 12 other states also restrict to 20 weeks. Most liberal/socialist countries in Europe limit abortions to 12 or 14 weeks. This is not about taking away the ability to have abortions. It's about money.

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Do they hate women?

1.) equal value for either is imossible
2.) the vast majority of views i see here are factually not trying to be close to equal

but i dont know you or your views so im curious if you were in charge what would you do, what would the laws be

My position, politically, is that the issue of abortion is not a federal one and should neither be supported nor opposed at that level. It definitely shouldn't be funded at that level. On a social level I believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is the intentional taking of that life. I won't go so far as to say that it is never warranted but would suggest that allowing it to be a simply arbitrary decision of one person who was at least partly responsible for the creation of that life is inhumane.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

Texas passed new abortion law which restricts abortions to 20 weeks. 12 other states also restrict to 20 weeks. Most liberal/socialist countries in Europe limit abortions to 12 or 14 weeks. This is not about taking away the ability to have abortions. It's about money.

if it was up to me personally my restriction would start at 21 weeks and i wish that was national

 

[Lutherf]

Re: Do they hate women?

In my extended family it went totally the opposite direction. In fact, it was just about as bad as it could have been. The doctors already knew there was going to be impossible disability if the child were to live. The prospective mother and father at first decided to abort the fetus. The family and extended family supported whatever decision the parents made. Their church talked them into not aborting. There's no other way around saying that. It is what changed their mind.

The baby was born just before 26 weeks. We all already knew it was going to be very, very, very bad if the child lived. It did, for 3 weeks. Saying that the child was severely disabled would be a terribly positive statement. It was heart breaking. It was devastating. It was also astronomically expensive even after insurance. The parents lost their house and later filed bankruptcy. The church said it was God's will and brought canned food. :roll: In less than a year the couple divorced.

Hmm....one of the big reasons that I'm not a big fan of the "God's will" position. I'm of the opinion that God granted us all free will and that we have a responsibility to him to exercise that will in the most productive way possible. God may well be my co-pilot but it's my hands that are on the wheel.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Re: Do they hate women?

People who are actively working to get stricter abortion laws ---- do you think they hate women?

No, I think most honestly believe they are doing something good, i.e. saving a human life. What constitutes human life and when it occurs in a developing fetus are my bones of contention with them. Others go further and simply adhere to a woman's right to choice throughout the entire pregancy.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Do they hate women?

1.)My position, politically, is that the issue of abortion is not a federal one and should neither be supported nor opposed at that level.
2.) It definitely shouldn't be funded at that level.
3.) On a social level I believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is the intentional taking of that life.
4.) I won't go so far as to say that it is never warranted but would suggest that allowing it to be a simply arbitrary decision of one person who was at least partly responsible for the creation of that life is inhumane.

1.) since its clearly a rights issue i couldnt disagree more
2.) not sure what you mean by funding but isnt thier laws preventing funding right now? also if you just me funding to medical faclities/medicines than i have no issues with it, it shouldnt be excluded
3.) I have no problem with this opinion
4.) i dont have a problem with this opinion either

where 3 and 4 get tricky is that millions of people disagree and feel obligated by their responsibilities and morals to abort, the believe it is the human thing and i cant value or devalue their opinion based on yours.

IM pro-choice with limits, 21wks (viability) and then it should be restricted but not banned.

thank you for simply answering questions, stating points and belifs