Do entitlements help the poor get out of poverty?

[OscarB63]

Okay if you hate society so much go out in the wilderness.

thank you for that oh so relevent reply, Mr. Strawman

 

[U.S. Socialist.]

thank you for that oh so relevent reply, Mr. Strawman

"society enables those who would normally perish if left to their own devices due to stupidity, laziness, etc to survive and pass on their stupid, lazy, etc genes to the detriment of the more capable." Those are your words, it doesn't sound like you view society as anything but a hindrance to you so in the words of your hero "Go Galt."

 

[Simon W. Moon]

society enables those who would normally perish if left to their own devices due to stupidity, laziness, etc to survive and pass on their stupid, lazy, etc genes to the detriment of the more capable.

First, it's not at all clear that there are any stupidity or laziness genes.
Second, without social groups we would never've amounted to much of anything as a species. We're outclassed in most every department by some other critter. What we have going for us is our ability to communicate and work together, (and importantly to pass down what we have learned).
It's what we are.

 

[Neomalthusian]

The goal of these programs is NOT to make the poor and suffering not poor and not suffering. It is to provide some level of help so these unfortunate citizens can survive and live.... even if living in relative poverty is still their lot.

Thanks for the subtle restatement. Feel free to insert your semantic revision into my post. My point remains.

 

[VanceMack]

Don't worry about MY sensibility Vance, I am not the one passing out the nastygrams.

I have a bad habit of responding in kind. Then again..I seldom feel the need to jump into someone elses business.

 

[VanceMack]

Okay if you hate society so much go out in the wilderness.

Careful...you tell too many of the productive members of society to go wander off into the wilderness who will be left to take care of all the crippled and dependent pets your way of thinking has created? The college students? Please...first they have to figure out what to do when mommy and daddy arent supporting them anymore.

 

[VanceMack]

"society enables those who would normally perish if left to their own devices due to stupidity, laziness, etc to survive and pass on their stupid, lazy, etc genes to the detriment of the more capable." Those are your words, it doesn't sound like you view society as anything but a hindrance to you so in the words of your hero "Go Galt."

"society"? No...just the crippled and dependent pets...the lazy parasites that wait for others to provide for them. Theres a world of difference between those that cant and those that are too lazy...have never had to...and wont deign themselve to do hard work. The welfare society creates them. The liberal politicians feed off them. You and people like you pretend to care about them.

 

[OscarB63]

First, it's not at all clear that there are any stupidity or laziness genes.
Second, without social groups we would never've amounted to much of anything as a species. We're outclassed in most every department by some other critter. What we have going for us is our ability to communicate and work together, (and importantly to pass down what we have learned).
It's what we are.

and yet, until relatively recently, in geological terms, societies sent the old, weak, lame, etc out to die. I am not making a value judgement on society (contrary to the tardations of U.S. socialist) simply stating the FACT that modern society has circumvented the process of natural selection

 

[AdamT]

I don't care, because that's not my goal.

Your goal: Make the poor and suffering not poor and not suffering, by any means necessary.
My goal: Get the corrupt government out of the charity business.

I don't share your goal, so I don't care if my goal accomplishes yours. I care that my goal is accomplished, regardless of the conjecture about its outcome.

Surprisingly, you seem to have overstated my goal, which is simply to provide temporary assistance to individuals who have fallen on hard times. These programs make up about 15% of the budget.

 

[OscarB63]

Surprisingly, you seem to have overstated my goal, which is simply to provide temporary assistance to individuals who have fallen on hard times. These programs make up about 15% of the budget.

yet all too often the assistance is anything but temporary.

 

[AdamT]

yet all too often the assistance is anything but temporary.

Agreed, and that's something we can continue to address. But I would not throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[TurtleDude]

Which demographic groups are most likely to vote?
It would seem sensible to focus on those who're most likely to actually show up and vote.

that point had more merit until 2008

 

[Simon W. Moon]

that point had more merit until 2008

Did you see the numbers from 2008 that I posted? They are the only ones I posted in re income vs voting.
Even in 2008 it seems the more income the more likely one is to vote.
If, as you seem to imply, in 2008 the lower income brackets were more heavily represented than other times, that means that previously it was even more of a losing bet to pander to the "poor" who don't have the money to contribute and who're less likely to vote.

and yet, until relatively recently, in geological terms, societies sent the old, weak, lame, etc out to die.

And you're trying to present this as being fairly representative of human cultures? Or are you just pointing out an anomaly?

I am not making a value judgement on society (contrary to the tardations of U.S. socialist) simply stating the FACT that modern society has circumvented the process of natural selection

Modern society is the result of natural selection.

 

[VanceMack]

Modern society is the result of natural selection.

Hogwash. Modern society is counter evolutionary. Modern society spends hundreds of billions annually saving lives and enabling those that would be eliminated by the natural selection process. Irrelevant of whether or not it should be done, it doesnt change the fact that it IS being done.

 

[winston53660]

Hogwash. Modern society is counter evolutionary. Modern society spends hundreds of billions annually saving lives and enabling those that would be eliminated by the natural selection process. Irrelevant of whether or not it should be done, it doesnt change the fact that it IS being done.

People like Steven Hawking raise the collective IQ of the world population. W/O intervention he would be dead.

 

[OscarB63]

People like Steven Hawking raise the collective IQ of the world population. W/O intervention he would be dead.

not nearly as much as all the tards that intervention saves brings it down. for every Steven Hawking that raises the collective IQ, there are thousands of Billy Bobs and Shaniquas that bring it down.

 

[PzKfW IVe]

Hogwash. Modern society is counter evolutionary. Modern society spends hundreds of billions annually saving lives and enabling those that would be eliminated by the natural selection process. Irrelevant of whether or not it should be done, it doesnt change the fact that it IS being done.

Yes. This weakens the species by diverting limited resources away from thos who are best suited to use them in a manner that better ensures the continued survival of said species.

 

[AdamT]

You mean the human race hasn't become the dominant species on earth because we can run faster than cheetahs?

 

[PzKfW IVe]

People like Steven Hawking raise the collective IQ of the world population. W/O intervention he would be dead.

Hawking is wonderful for things like discovering the deep secredts of the universe.
As far as perpetuating the species, directly or otherwise - not so much.

 

[OscarB63]

You mean the human race hasn't become the dominant species on earth because we can run faster than cheetahs?

just think how much better we'd be if we weren't artifically preserving the weak and stupid

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Hogwash. Modern society is counter evolutionary. Modern society spends hundreds of billions annually saving lives and enabling those that would be eliminated by the natural selection process. Irrelevant of whether or not it should be done, it doesnt change the fact that it IS being done.

I see. And where did society come from if it's not the result of natural processes? Was there some outside force that created it?
I think your definition of what is and is not "evolutionary" is not very well formed.

 

[pdog]

I'm really surprised to the amount of narrow minded thinking being applied here by those that think poverty is a simple choice or natural selection. NOTHING social or economical is simple. It's complex, it's chaos theory even. Is pay a measure of work? Can somebody really work 400 times harder than other person? What about upbringing? Geography? Timing? Sex? Age? Race? What about luck? Fate? Sure, everybody makes mistakes, and some deserve what they get. But the variables that can let one person recover from such mistakes can crush another. It seems to me we're artificially solving the problem by rewriting it to something our feable brains can wrap our head around . Choice is "chicken or fish", but lumping widowed mother, war ravaged vet, and lazy surf bum together and asking them all "rich or poor" seems like a silly question to ask in the first place.

Is there a better way to ask the question? "What is a reasonable level of poverty?" perhaps?

 

[VanceMack]

People like Steven Hawking raise the collective IQ of the world population. W/O intervention he would be dead.

"Irrelevant of whether or not it should be done, it doesnt change the fact that it IS being done"

 

[VanceMack]

I see. And where did society come from if it's not the result of natural processes? Was there some outside force that created it?
I think your definition of what is and is not "evolutionary" is not very well formed.

Natural Selection says what? :lamo

 

[PzKfW IVe]

I'm really surprised to the amount of narrow minded thinking being applied here by those that think poverty is a simple choice or natural selection.

Not sure who here made that argument. I know I didn't.