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Derek Chauvin trial livestream and discussion

Next witness, Danial Isenschmit(sp), lab toxicologist at a private company. Going over his work and educational history.
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Masters in forensic pathology with a doctorate in toxicology.

Their lab tested the hospital blood and urine. He's listing and explaining the results.

Says the meth found was consistent with prescription dosage.

He's discussing opiates and opioids now. He is discussing possible drug tolerance to opioids. He says someone regularly using opioids would develop a tolerance to fentanyl.
 
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bomberfox said:
ok since Ashes wants to avoid this point altogether, why? The hell if i know. I remember in another argument i clarified with Ashes what he thinks was a fatal level of fentanyl and he showed me this.

Fentanyl: What Is a Lethal Dosage? | Oxford

Lethal doses will vary depending on who is taking the drug. Learn more about Fentanyl misuse and how to get treatment for Fentanyl addiction.
oxfordtreatment.com oxfordtreatment.com
And continued to conflate 11 with 2 and only he knows why he doesnt want to talk about the metrics involved but its the most laughably dishonest take ive seen on this subject. 2 mg in the fatal dose is not the same as the blood concentration. 11 is larger than 2 so it must be more than 3 times riiiiiiiight gais? Heheheh aint that cuuuute?

But its wroooong!

1. 11ng/mol is the blood concentration of a substance, not the dosage. I corrected Ashes before on this subject but he refuses to let up still!

2. no way in **** all is 11 nanograms 3x higher than 2 miligrams

3. in order to tell if Floyd had 3x the lethal level of fentanyl we would have to look at more than the vague ass passage in a preliminary autopsy which prompts me to ask what is the lethal level of fentanyl he is talking about?

i find all this dodging to be patently dishonest.
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I am curious about the reported level of fentanyl 11ng/mol, perhaps the unit is ng/ml?
 
Binary_Digit said:
Look man, I'm probably as convinced as anybody that Floyd died from a knee, not drugs or health problems, but come on. The autopsy report says what it says. ASHES is just being the messenger on that point and is overall doing a great service to the entire DP community here. Why you insist on taking HIM to court over what the autopsy report says makes no damn sense at all, and I think you should either back off from attacking him or take a break from this thread. Your outrage is aimed at the wrong person.
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Because he keeps quibbling and giving non answers when asked the most mundane of questions. I was really just legit trying to help at first but the constant dodging and over focusing tells me he isnt being objective.
 
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Callen said:
Homicide is the killing of one person by another but is not necessarily a crime. Criminal homicide is called murder or manslaughter. However, the fact the ME's all say it was a death caused by another human is damning. I expect the defence will say the homicide was caused by the guy in the car who supplied Floyd with the drugs.....which is why that person is claiming the 5th.
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Are you sure you're in the right thread? That was rational and reasonable and even probable! Such commentary seems to have less and less a place in this thread, sadly.
 
longview said:
I am curious about the reported level of fentanyl 11ng/mol, perhaps the unit is ng/ml?
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ng/ml i think i was confusing another article thank you for the correction. I will correct my post. See this was easy peasy.
 
bomberfox said:
Because he keeps quibbling and giving non answers when asked the most mundane of questions.
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You've been asking argumentative questions as if he's taken an opinionated position on the subject, which he hasn't. You've been calling him out by name as if he made bullshit statements, which he hasn't. He's just the messenger. If your questions are not being answered to your satisfaction, don't take it personally, it's most likely because that information hasn't yet been presented or clarified in the trial.
 
bomberfox said:
Because he keeps quibbling and giving non answers when asked the most mundane of questions. I was really just legit trying to help at first but the constant dodging and over focusing tells me he isnt being objective.
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Are you being objective?
 
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bomberfox said:
ok since Ashes wants to avoid this point altogether, why? The hell if i know. I remember in another argument i clarified with Ashes what he thinks was a fatal level of fentanyl and he showed me this.

Fentanyl: What Is a Lethal Dosage? | Oxford

Lethal doses will vary depending on who is taking the drug. Learn more about Fentanyl misuse and how to get treatment for Fentanyl addiction.
oxfordtreatment.com oxfordtreatment.com
And continued to conflate 11 with 2 and only he knows why he doesnt want to talk about the metrics involved but its the most laughably dishonest take ive seen on this subject. 2 mg in the fatal dose is not the same as the blood concentration. 11 is larger than 2 so it must be more than 3 times riiiiiiiight gais? Heheheh aint that cuuuute?

But its wroooong!

1. 11ng/mol is the blood concentration of a substance, not the dosage. I corrected Ashes before on this subject but he refuses to let up still!

2. no way in **** all is 11 nanograms 3x higher than 2 miligrams

3. in order to tell if Floyd had 3x the lethal level of fentanyl we would have to look at more than the vague ass passage in a preliminary autopsy which prompts me to ask what is the lethal level of fentanyl he is talking about?

i find all this dodging to be patently dishonest.
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Not dishonest, just doesn’t understand.

A lethal dose (which is highly variable in patients with an opiate habit/tolerance) depends upon the route of administration, which can be IV, buccal, transdermal, subcutanous, intramuscular, inhaled via snorting, or (massive doses) orally.

11mcg/Dl is the serum level, which is not outrageous and probably not enough to cause any respiratory depressionin a tolerant patient like Floyd
 
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State done, defense cross.
 
I looked about and found this,
Fentanyl drug profile
"The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml.
Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved."
So if he were going into surgery, with an attending anesthesiologist, and no other drugs in his system, then 11 ng/ml, might be safe.
 
Binary_Digit said:
You've been asking argumentative questions as if he's taken an opinionated position on the subject, which he hasn't. You've been calling him out by name as if he made bullshit statements, which he hasn't. He's just the messenger. If your questions are not being answered to your satisfaction, don't take it personally, it's most likely because that information hasn't yet been presented or clarified in the trial.
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He actually has been avoiding a lot and its what he is refusing to state that draws the ire and yeah i believe he is making opinionated statements.
 
Just getting caught up, is the defense arguing they didn't have the updated material?

(edit-- nevermind he just admitted he thought the updated material he received was just a copy of the old material he already had.)
 
About 10 min into a 20 minute recess.
 
SkyFox76 said:
Just getting caught up, is the defense arguing they didn't have the updated material?

(edit-- nevermind he just admitted he thought the updated material he received was just a copy of the old material he already had.)
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They are complaining on the record about one of the slide titles being misleading (that was a misunderstanding resulting from the outdated evidence). That line of questioning led to the break which led to the talk about updated materials.
 
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Back on the record, continuing cross examination, with the updated version of the slides in evidence.

Defense done, redirect. Re-cross. Still going on about the fentanyl and averages of the metabolites. Witness excused. One more witness, Dr. Bill Smock. Is in emergency and forensic medicine. Forensic medicine is applying medical situations to legal ones. Going through history and education.
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Dr. Tobin’s Irish accent didn’t hurt, IMO.
 
This guy looks so familiar to me but his name sure doesn't. Wonder if he has a doppleganger who also does forensic work. lol
 
ASHES said:
Back on the record, continuing cross examination, with the updated version of the slides in evidence.

Defense done, redirect. Re-cross. Still going on about the fentanyl and averages of the metabolites. Witness excused. One more witness, Dr. Bill Smock. Is in emergency and forensic medicine. Forensic medicine is applying medical situations to legal ones. Going through history and education.
View attachment 67327511
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Did the defense get any traction? Do any damage?
 
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Lursa said:
Did the defense get any traction? Do any damage?
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No not really. Just pointed out the slide about fentanyl levels at death doesn't mean they died of fentanyl, they could have died of anything. Really the only thing I took from cross.
 
ASHES said:
No not really. Just pointed out the slide about fentanyl levels at death doesn't mean they died of fentanyl, they could have died of anything. Really the only thing I took from cross.
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Excellent.

But I guess they'll have their own experts when it's their turn. 🤷
 
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