Curious alternative few of best home defense firearm [W:116]

[Goshin]

Always preferred semi shotties myself. Unless you practice a lot under the clock to simulate stress, it is way too easy to short stroke it. The semis today are just as reliable with a wide variety of rounds. Keep mine with a round in the chamber, safety on. 6 more #1 buck in the magazine. I always laugh when I see shows where the good guys are looking for the bad guys and only just before entering the firefight, charge their weapon....

Yup. I always have this irrational urge to shout at the TV, "Why the HELL didn't you do that five minutes ago!"

I'm just a weapons-should-be-ready-for-instant-use guy. Now if you got kids in the house and its a safety measure I understand...

 

[Naptyme]

Well... that's one theory. You've got good weapons anyway... but I just don't like the notion of not having a round under the hammer ready to go, or having to rack the slide first. To each his own.

True, I always keep one in the chamber on my .40 . It was several years ago when that happened on the shotgun and it was the first home invasion I had ever experienced. I had just got the shotgun and hadn't shot it before it just happened to be the closest gun to me at the time I heard the glass break. I keep it loaded now but if I was in the same situation where I felt safe enough to do it I would rerack it again in the attempt to scare off the intruder to prevent having to actually fire. If they make it inside the house though they won't get that benefit.

 

[Goshin]

True, I always keep one in the chamber on my .40 . It was several years ago when that happened on the shotgun and it was the first home invasion I had ever experienced. I had just got the shotgun and hadn't shot it before it just happened to be the closest gun to me at the time I heard the glass break. I keep it loaded now but if I was in the same situation where I felt safe enough to do it I would rerack it again in the attempt to scare off the intruder to prevent having to actually fire. If they make it inside the house though they won't get that benefit.

Yup, I got ya. Actually I can recall a couple times that were possibly a little short of imminent-life-and-death where I racked a weapon that already had a round in the chamber, just to make sure someone understood that my forbearance was nearing its end.

 

[BretJ]

Yup. I always have this irrational urge to shout at the TV, "Why the HELL didn't you do that five minutes ago!"

I'm just a weapons-should-be-ready-for-instant-use guy. Now if you got kids in the house and its a safety measure I understand...

I can see that as well. Not tactically sound though...I have seen people CCW a 1911 and carry with an empty chamber.... If they are that afraid of carrying a 1911 condition 1, perhaps they should find a different firearm. I love my 1911s but I carry a Glock 30. I have no issue carrying a 1911 in condition 1, but love the natural aim I have with the Glock. Chevies and Fords...gotta love choice.

 

[Goshin]

I can see that as well. Not tactically sound though...I have seen people CCW a 1911 and carry with an empty chamber.... If they are that afraid of carrying a 1911 condition 1, perhaps they should find a different firearm. I love my 1911s but I carry a Glock 30. I have no issue carrying a 1911 in condition 1, but love the natural aim I have with the Glock. Chevies and Fords...gotta love choice.

FORD- fix or repair daily

On a quiet day you can hear a Ford rusting...

mechanic: the problem is circled...

 

[ecofarm]

Small frame .357 revolver

1. No failures
2. No safeties
3. One hand free for phone, lights, etc
4. Indoor maneuverability
4a. No clunking it on stuff when moving around
4b. Does not present a grabable target, especially around corners
5. Cheap ammo for the range (.38)
5a. Some ranges don't like shotgns
6. Can also serve as concealed carry weapon
7. Fantastic versatility
7a. Glaser safety slugs for stopping power and low penetration (to prevent going through walls still cooking)
7b. 125HP is the best handgun stopping round in existence
7c. 158s will drop a bear or crack an engine block

All purpose versatility, cheap range ammo, best handgun stopping power. The Ruger (heavy enough to handle recoil easily) is under $500, a Smith (much lighter) can run $1200 with laser.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Goshin]

Small frame .357 revolver

1. No failures
2. No safeties
3. One hand free for phone, lights, etc
4. Maneuverability
4a. No clunking it on stuff when moving around
4b. Does not present a grabable target, especially around corners
5. Cheap ammo for the range (.38)
5a. Some ranges don't like shotgns
6. Can also serve as concealed carry weapon
7. Fantastic versatility
7a. Glaser safety slugs for stopping power and low penetration (to prevent going through walls still cooking)
7b. 125HP is the best handgun stopping round in existence
7c. 158s will drop a bear or crack an engine block

All purpose versatility, cheap range ammo, best handgun stopping power. Thr Ruger (heavy enough to handle recoil easily) is under $500, a Smith (much lighter) can run $1200 with laser.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


View attachment 67152199

Yup. I carried one of those for several years before deciding I wanted something a little lighter for every day.

One thing tho: glazer safety slugs will go through a couple layers of sheet rock and still potentially injure someone on the other side. Look up box-o-truth glazer, there's a vid.

 

[ecofarm]

One thing tho: glazer safety slugs will go through a couple layers of sheet rock and still potentially injure someone on the other side. Look up box-o-truth glazer, there's a vid.

You and I have been through this, you're right. However, I'd like to see that gelatin a couple and a few feet away from the wall and compared to a normal round. It penetrates far less than a normal round and surely has far less velocity after penetration of drywall. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement when wall penetration is a concern. And it's all but guaranteed to shut someone down quicklike. It's like putting a .410 an inch into the body and then firing.

Can load it like this:

3 Glasers for standard needs (maybe 2 blues then 1 silver)
1 125hp in case of PCP
1 158 to blow a big hole in anything

Yup. I carried one of those for several years before deciding I wanted something a little lighter for every day.

The Smith 340PD is much lighter but cost twice as much as the Ruger.

 

[ecofarm]

ps. @OP: ~"A pellet gun for home defense."

hahaha

That's a joke, right?

 

[SMTA]

Curious alternative few of best home defense firearm

ps. @OP: ~"A pellet gun for home defense."

hahaha

That's a joke, right?

It would work if home invasions were conducted by weakly gerbils.

 

[Goshin]

ps. @OP: ~"A pellet gun for home defense."

hahaha

That's a joke, right?

I've heard it before... and I always shake my head.

 

[TurtleDude]

This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.

I have some really good 22 rifles. A Jim Clark Chevy team challenge 10-22 and a "Tribal workshop" (Chief AJ) version of the same. unless you are using ELY match ammo, there is always a chance of a failure to fire and jams are common with 22 rifles.

so I tend to disagree with "this expert" and my disagreement comes from competing at the highest levels with such rifles against other guys with top of the line stuff and seeing those things jam or fail to fire

 

[TurtleDude]

The type of gun is irrelevant. All guns are a bad idea and not helpful, on balance, in increasing home safety.
The rare times a gun might help with self defense are outweighed by the tremendous danger of negligent discharge they present.

why are you cluttering up this thread with this anti gun idiocy. We know you don't understand defensive firearms use, we understand you are terrified about owning a gun. This is nothing more than your attempt to pick a fight and derail this thread

 

[TurtleDude]

"Why do you carry an eight-gauge, Everette?"


Everette: "Because I could not find a six-gauge."

the source of this wisdom came from a famous East African and Indian "white hunter" who was charged with slaying man eating lions, tigers, rogue elephants and the incredibly (I kid you not) hippos. It might have been colonel Corbett or Colonel Patterson(Man Eaters of Tsavo fame)

They asked him why he used a 600 NITRO and he said because a 700 was not available (a 700 was introduced in 1988)

 

[TurtleDude]

the Olympic guy tried that argument with me. My reply can be summed up in one word: penetration. Buck goes deep, number 8 not so much. Energy transfer is only one factor.

at home defense situations # 8 going 1400 FPS goes real deep

 

[Black Dog]

Like I said I have other choices. My 00 shells are short. They are made by Aguila and have 6 shots in them (there are 9 in a normal one) and they have less powder behind them to avoid over penetration. On the up side my 5 shot Mossy will hold 7 of them, or 9 of the shortly slugs. Assuming my wife remembers the racking thumb safety on the left side and doesn't stand there fumbling with trying to load a shell that's fine. But we're all intimately familiar with 10 22s. People don't fly back off their feet when they get shot like in the movies. If you've been shot you are not aware of whether it was a 22 or a 9mm. Did you see how fast the guy in the video was unloading those shots on target? That was about right. With the 22 you have just been shot and you are still being shot. Whatever was on your mind is gone and you are not on task.

I agree about the #8. A friend of mine on shotgun target rounds:

"A shot from a 12 gauge at close range carries about 3 times the energy of a .45. A shotgun target round has about 85% of what 00 does. So you are taking 15% off of 3 rounds of .45. By all means use the target rounds."

We carried deer slug or pumpkin ball's in our 12 gauges when I was an officer. Of course it was a different time back then almost 30 years ago. We had a saying...

Would you carry a .32 caliber pistol as your main weapon? Then why would you use 00 buck?

 

[Black Dog]

I've heard it before... and I always shake my head.

Hell a paintball gun would be better protection.

 

[Black Dog]

FORD- fix or repair daily

On a quiet day you can hear a Ford rusting...

mechanic: the problem is circled...

View attachment 67152198

Screw you Goshin! I will take a Mustang anyday!

 

[joko104]

The type of gun is irrelevant. All guns are a bad idea and not helpful, on balance, in increasing home safety.
The rare times a gun might help with self defense are outweighed by the tremendous danger of negligent discharge they present.

According to the DOJ, firearms prevent 500,000 home invasions and 1,000,000 non-drug felonies per year.

 

[joko104]

Yeah, well... that's lovely IF we're talking about a scenario where the BG is the sort to be scared off by gunfire, or where the BG retreating is even a viable option.

I'm not particularly fond of betting my life on such assumptions.


.22LR, regardless of the difficulty in treating wounds from that caliber in some cases, is a PISS POOR MAN STOPPER.

That says it all to me.


If the scumbag ISN'T scared off instantly by gunfire... if he keeps coming or SHOOTS BACK.... I want something I can rely on to put a big enough hole in him that he was STOP, DROP and CEASE his action with one or two well-placed shots.

That involves things like handguns of .40+ caliber or "magnum" on the rim, shotgun shells with "OO" on them, and so on.


Did the guy also mention just how often a fast-shooting rimfire may jam, FF or stovepipe? There's that too...


This just gets a big whopping NO from me, for too many life-risking assumptions and dubious conclusions,.

You make a very good point about jams.

He doesn't have me convinced, rather I think his view might be valid in come comparisons - particularly to handguns. Most people are incredibly BAD shots with a handgun. Most people are cops, ex cops, ex military and otherwise have virtually NO shooting experience. Even with experience, in stress situations people with handguns - including cops - miss. At the range of inside a house missing with a long gun is far less likely.

I don't think pump shotguns are ideal for home defense. The plus of a pump is it can be worked with a large variety of shells - something applicable to cops but not really for home defense.

I'm a big caliber guy and often have pointed out I carry a 1911 and either a side-by-side hammer lock coach shotgun or an M1/orMIA. Those aren't small bullets. Then again my real danger is a wildhog charging me out of the undergrowth and I get ONE chance to knock it down or divert it. Thus, the coach double barrel shotgun. The 45 in case that doesn't work and it's on me. You can't out wrestle a hog.

I seem to remember way back a company came up with a full auto .22LR that fired at an extreme rate of fire approaching a mini-gun with a spring loaded magazine you'd wind up real tight. They claimed it could cut thru almost anything and it was to only be available to law enforcement, starting with troopers (A trooper told me this story). However, the idea was abandoned for 2 reasons. First, it fired so damn fast they'd be defending an officer shooting someone 63 times - which was like a 2 second burst. Second, it would be inevitable one or more would get stolen and used in a crime - and everyone would know it came from the police. They worried organized crime and bad guys would get them if they went into large scale production.

 

[ecofarm]

Screw you Goshin! I will take a Mustang anyday!

That's a good point. The '68 GT500KR convertible is in my top-5 cars ever list, as is the '65 Shelby Cobra AC (that counts as Ford, right?).

 

[joko104]

The guy is a moron.

Stopping power consists of excessive tissue damage, resulting blood loss, and corresponding shock to the body.

Tiny caliber rounds, a pellet gun, or a blank gun are not viable options.

Based upon this logic, just carry a slingshot and plenty of pebbles....and a Bible.

He is arguing that stopping power has little relevancy to home defense, which is a different situation than what cops, military etc face. He is claiming the sound of the firearm, having one and someone hit will have the person fleeing. Not saying I agree or not, but that's his point. He also seems to be claiming the more bullets you put into someone, the more likely you are to hit a vital area (heart/brain). A 9mm doesn't really have "stopping power" either.

Which would more likely hit the brain or heart? 4 .22LRs from a rifle or 2 9mm from a handgun? That also seems his claim.

Setting aside military actions, I suspect "tiny caliber rounds" have killed more people in civilian conflicts than any other round. An old fella in a wheelchair - an avid hunter and he has a large collection of firearms - sleeps with a .25 and he shot 2 home intruders with it - killing one and wounding the other. Both were armed. I think they had 9mms if I remember correctly. He hit the one who died in the heart. The others ran, but not far. There was a lot of local press about it.

Why a .25 and not his 9mm? It's a small gun.

Most intruders aren't there for assassination at all costs. That's why I mentioned the full auto pellet gun. I think that would send almost anyone running. Would I pick it for home defense? No. Better than nothing? Absolutely.

Airguns are, of course, a different topic and their evolution is not in the USA, but in countries were firearm ownership is basically illegal. Thus there are now .22, .25, .30 and even .50 caliber airguns hitting 1500 feet per second (well over supersonic). Thus, in nearly all of the USA a person can have, if they can build one, a full auto, silenced 1500 ft/second full auto 50 caliber "bb gun."
Or alternatively, in some areas of the country, nothing at all. Eh, but that's a different topic.

What cops need and what people need for home defense aren't the same considerations, particularly given the low skills most people have.

 

[joko104]

That's a good point. The '68 GT500KR convertible is in my top-5 cars ever list, as is the '65 Shelby Cobra AC (that counts as Ford, right?).

Those are dinosaurs. In that era range for muscle cars? '63 split-window 427 Vette (only year of the split window) and the '70 Boss 429 because I think they looked cool. All those old Detroit cast iron muscle cars are turtles in terms of performance to today's standards. The AC Cobra with the side oiler 427 Ford is a fast little screamer I would imagine, but still outdated in performance.

 

[joko104]

I agree. A friend and I went on a hog hunt several years back. IMO he was more likely loaded for bear, not because of his choice of rifle, a Kimber, but because of the ammo choice he used, the 30-06 round. The ammunition can be loaded for a number of applications making it a fairly flexible round, e. g. 150 grain soft points for deer, and heavier bullets used for larger game animals. He used Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 180 grain soft point ammo for shooting hogs that day with a muzzle velocity of about 2650 FPS.

I on the other hand brought my Ruger #1 single shot rifle that fires the 45/70 Government round. It also is a fairly flexible round, especially when reloading the cartridge. That day however, I was using Winchester 300 grain hollow point ammo with a muzzle velocity of about 1880 FPS.

We both shot hogs that day. His weighed about 100 pounds and mine was a little bigger but they both fell to one shot. Mine flipped completely over in the air after being hit in the vitals with the bullet penetrating to the off shoulder. He was dead upon impact with the ground or DRT (dead right there).

When it was his shot the hog moved slightly as he fired and instead of hitting a quartering shot, the bullet hit the hog in the testes, traveled through the length of the hog and exited the frontal cavity chest area. The bullet traveled from one end of the hog to the other and split him wide open, from front to back. The hog dragged his entire body cavity organs on the ground about 100 yards before going down.

The point is that the 30-06 bullet had more energy, gauged obviously by its performance. The 45/70 on the other hand had greater terminal ballistics because it transferred its entire energy inside the hog, dropping it in his tracks.

I apply this experience to my home defense and concealed carry firearms caliber and ammo choices.

The 30.06 is still about the best possible heavy hunting round out there, particularly adding how inexpensive ammo is plus the huge diversity of ammo choices. I have quite a few of them, mostly M1s. The M1A .308 offers a 20 round magazine as it's plus, but I still prefer the M1 generally.

 

[ecofarm]

Those are dinosaurs. In that era range for muscle cars? '63 split-window 427 Vette (only year of the split window) and the '70 Boss 429 because I think they looked cool. All those old Detroit cast iron muscle cars are turtles in terms of performance to today's standards. The AC Cobra with the side oiler 427 Ford is a fast little screamer I would imagine, but still outdated in performance.

An AC Cobra Coupe was calculated to have done 186 mph (299 km/h) on the M1 motorway in 1964, driven by Jack Sears and Peter Bolton during shakedown tests prior to that year's Le Mans 24h race.[8]

AC Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1965 Shelby Cobra 427 S/C 0-60 mph 4.5 Quarter mile 12.5

Shelby 0-60 Times & Shelby Quarter Mile Times | Shelby GT500 Mustang, Classic 427 Cobra 0-60, 2013 GT350 Muscle Car and New Shelby Series One 0 to 60 stats!


Granted, the '68 GT500 is 0-60 5.5 and 13s 1/4, but a Cobra can run with modern cars. With upgrades, the GT500 can as well.

Put nitrous in the Cobra and it can run with modern supercars (under 4s 0-60, 11s 1/4).