• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Curious alternative few of best home defense firearm [W:116]

joko104

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
60,997
Reaction score
21,560
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.
 

Guy Incognito

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
11,216
Reaction score
2,818
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.
The type of gun is irrelevant. All guns are a bad idea and not helpful, on balance, in increasing home safety.
The rare times a gun might help with self defense are outweighed by the tremendous danger of negligent discharge they present.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
66,660
Reaction score
37,853
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.
Several factors must be considered for a "good" home defense weapon. One of them is where all of those rapidly fired rounds that are not on target will go as well as "through and through" shots that do hit the target. For this reason most rifle rounds are not very good choices for home defense which is typically accomplished at very close range.

Edit: Here are some "expert" opinions on the matter:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/02/21/ga-basics-how-to-choose-your-first-home-defense-gun/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/guns_home_defense.htm

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/08/04/buyers-guide-the-best-home-defense-gun-for-you-your-family/
 
Last edited:

humbolt

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
25,731
Reaction score
17,430
Location
SW Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
If you're a reasonably good shot, it really doesn't matter all that much. What does matter is whether you are in control of yourself, or not.
 

SMTA

Ketsu no anna
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
32,661
Reaction score
7,746
Location
OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.
The guy is a moron.

Stopping power consists of excessive tissue damage, resulting blood loss, and corresponding shock to the body.

Tiny caliber rounds, a pellet gun, or a blank gun are not viable options.

Based upon this logic, just carry a slingshot and plenty of pebbles....and a Bible.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I am a manly man. I would never miss an intruder.

I probably wouldn't miss, but I probably wouldn't have my gun handy either, ergo the best defense I have is a few mean ass stranger hating dogs that will give me time to get the gun out, find my cape, and squeeze into my speedo
 

ChuckBerry

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
3,491
Reaction score
2,546
Location
Lafayette, Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
the best gun in any self defense scenario is the one at hand

that being said, the pump action shotgun rec is one made from a standpoint of stopping power balanced against the possibility of over-penetration and reliability of being able to make followup shots...according to those criteria, a shotgun would seem to be the best weapon

but as you point out, stopping an attack doesn't always necessitate physically damaging the attacker...making him fear damage in many cases is enough...and I don't care who you are, getting hit with a .22LR would be unpleasant at least...I would have to be seriously motivated to continue the attack in the face of fire from even a .22LR
 

SMTA

Ketsu no anna
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
32,661
Reaction score
7,746
Location
OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I am a manly man. I would never miss an intruder.

I probably wouldn't miss, but I probably wouldn't have my gun handy either, ergo the best defense I have is a few mean ass stranger hating dogs that will give me time to get the gun out, find my cape, and squeeze into my speedo
Agree with the mean dog - the rest is quite creepy! :mrgreen:
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Agree with the mean dog - the rest is quite creepy! :mrgreen:
Well, sometimes my underroos are dirty and I have to improvise :2razz:

Have had po-po tell me some funny stories about how scared pootless most people are of the dogs. They have on occasion faked people out of hiding by making them think they were releasing the k-9's on them by going through the motions and then barking like dogs and making a bunch of noise when the K-9's were not really on scene.
 

SMTA

Ketsu no anna
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
32,661
Reaction score
7,746
Location
OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, sometimes my underroos are dirty and I have to improvise :2razz:

Have had po-po tell me some funny stories about how scared pootless most people are of the dogs. They have on occasion faked people out of hiding by making them think they were releasing the k-9's on them by going through the motions and then barking like dogs and making a bunch of noise when the K-9's were not really on scene.
TMI! TMI! Stop!

Yea, a friend of mine is the local Sheriff, and he has told some hilarious stories about the K9s.

You are right!
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,090
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This fella claims he did a study of actual shootings and found that it was basically irrelevant what type firearm a person has in nearly any instance. With that, he points to how fast a person can fire an ordinary .22LR semi-auto rifle accurately compared to other firearms.

Best home defense weapon? Surprise, it's not a shotgun! - YouTube

His "study"
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association

I've always claimed it is a SEMI AUTO (not pump) 12 gauge for a large man and a 16 gauge semi-auto for a smaller person. But I think he makes a good point. I started thinking about this actually for a .22 pellet gun I bought - full auto. Only 600 feet per second and a pellet is much lighter than a typical bullet. But there is no recoil to speak of and someone getting at the blur of a full auto probably isn't going want to keep charging at it - and in 95% of the USA there is no permit of any kind necessary for a pellet gun, plus most places silencers on them are legal too.

So, then, what about a .22LR semi-auto rifle? Without the barrel lift recoil a person could accurately sling FAR more bullets on target than a pump 12 gauge or any revolver.

Every video I've seen of a robbery or home invasions - even if the robber/invader is armed - it seems if the would-be victim starts shooting at the criminal, the criminal runs. That is his contention. Merely shooting at the "bad guy" makes him run - and you are far more likely to have multiple hits with a .22 rifle than any other firearm.

I think he makes a good point. Do you think there is validity in his claim? That the size of the bullet isn't what matters - rather merely having a firearm and then chances of hitting the target? The more bullets, the more likelihood of a hit.


Yeah, well... that's lovely IF we're talking about a scenario where the BG is the sort to be scared off by gunfire, or where the BG retreating is even a viable option.

I'm not particularly fond of betting my life on such assumptions.


.22LR, regardless of the difficulty in treating wounds from that caliber in some cases, is a PISS POOR MAN STOPPER.

That says it all to me.


If the scumbag ISN'T scared off instantly by gunfire... if he keeps coming or SHOOTS BACK.... I want something I can rely on to put a big enough hole in him that he was STOP, DROP and CEASE his action with one or two well-placed shots.

That involves things like handguns of .40+ caliber or "magnum" on the rim, shotgun shells with "OO" on them, and so on.


Did the guy also mention just how often a fast-shooting rimfire may jam, FF or stovepipe? There's that too...


This just gets a big whopping NO from me, for too many life-risking assumptions and dubious conclusions,.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,090
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
"Why do you carry an eight-gauge, Everette?"


Everette: "Because I could not find a six-gauge."







 

Lutherf

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
38,114
Reaction score
45,065
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yeah, well... that's lovely IF we're talking about a scenario where the BG is the sort to be scared off by gunfire, or where the BG retreating is even a viable option.

I'm not particularly fond of betting my life on such assumptions.


.22LR, regardless of the difficulty in treating wounds from that caliber in some cases, is a PISS POOR MAN STOPPER.

That says it all to me.


If the scumbag ISN'T scared off instantly by gunfire... if he keeps coming or SHOOTS BACK.... I want something I can rely on to put a big enough hole in him that he was STOP, DROP and CEASE his action with one or two well-placed shots.

That involves things like handguns of .40+ caliber or "magnum" on the rim, shotgun shells with "OO" on them, and so on.


Did the guy also mention just how often a fast-shooting rimfire may jam, FF or stovepipe? There's that too...


This just gets a big whopping NO from me, for too many life-risking assumptions and dubious conclusions,.
Not thrilled by the idea of waiting for the perp to bleed out as he's stabbing you? Wuss!:lol:
 

tech30528

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,243
Reaction score
3,013
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I have to agree with the OP. I'm a target shooter mostly and have done a lot of research on 22lr and different ammunition, from 25 yards out to 150 yards, over 30 different types of ammo, chronograph, penetration, accuracy, production consistency, well you get the picture. Everybody has their thing, and mine is 22lr rifles.

Any defensive instructor will tell you shot placement is key. With a 22 that's easy, and follow up shots are just as easy. At 25 yards I can dump a 25 round magazine on an 8 inch target in under 4 seconds. You know what size that group is in your living room?

Ammo choices: for penetration the best is the Aguila Interceptor. At 1470 feet per second it is the fastest 40 grain 22lr round on the market and the hardest hitting. I chronoed them at 1448 fps out of a carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel. At 25 yards they consistently go thru 1 1/2 steel drums. The exit holes look the same as 9mm holes, as they should since the collected bullets average 38 grains and are sharp edged 10mm discs.

Perhaps more interesting is fragmentation. My favorites are the CCI SEGMENTED hollowpoints. The are lighter at 32 grains and faster at 1640 feet per second. The interesting thing about these rounds is they are prefractured in to 3 equal sized pieces and create 3 separate wound channels. You take a handful of those and it's not important what the exit wounds look like, those wound channels are not straight. Your internals have the consistency of course ground sausage. You are not going to survive it. It is not like plugging a thru and thru hole or even controlling bleeding from a mushroomed hollowpoints. The channels are random. You get shot in the chest with one and the pieces could end up anywhere. You may have one in your leg, one in you neck and one in your arm. It just depends what they bounce off of. BTW the speed of sound is roughly 1130 feet per second. You do the math. Tiny little supersonic random sharp edged objects. Any of you size queens want to step up for a demonstration? I've shot them in to hams at various distances and then cut them open. It's a mess and there is considerable bone fragmentation.

Not to say I don't have other choices. I have a 12 gauge pump, it has 00 buck in it. I have larger pistols too. But the shot to kill ratio on handgun rounds all the way up to .45cap is more than one and less than two. Even if the .45 is 1.1 (it is) and the 22lr is 1.6 ( it is) you are still pulling the trigger twice. With the 22 shot placement is near perfect, fast, and I can still hear.
 
Last edited:

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,090
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I have to agree with the OP. I'm a target shooter mostly and have done a lot of research on 22lr and different ammunition, from 25 yards out to 150 yards, over 30 different types of ammo, chronograph, penetration, accuracy, production consistency, well you get the picture. Everybody has their thing, and mine is 22lr rifles.

Any defensive instructor will tell you shot placement is key. With a 22 that's easy, and follow up shots are just as easy. At 25 yards I can dump a 25 round magazine on an 8 inch target in under 4 seconds. You know what size that group is in your living room?

Ammo choices: for penetration the best is the Aguila Interceptor. At 1470 feet per second it is the fastest 40 grain 22lr round on the market and the hardest hitting. I chronoed them at 1448 fps out of a carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel. At 25 yards they consistently go thru 1 1/2 steel drums. The exit holes look the same as 9mm holes, as they should since the collected bullets average 38 grains and are sharp edged 10mm discs.

Perhaps more interesting is fragmentation. My favorites are the CCI SEGMENTED hollowpoints. The are lighter at 32 grains and faster at 1640 feet per second. The interesting thing about these rounds is they are prefractured in to 3 equal sized pieces and create 3 separate wound channels. You take a handful of those and it's not important what the exit wounds look like, those wound channels are not straight. Your internals have the consistency of course ground sausage. You are not going to survive it. It is not like plugging a thru and thru hole or even controlling bleeding from a mushroomed hollowpoints. The channels are random. You get shot in the chest with one and the pieces could end up anywhere. You may have one in your leg, one in you neck and one in your arm. It just depends what they bounce off of. BTW the speed of sound is roughly 1130 feet per second. You do the math. Tiny little supersonic random sharp edged objects. Any of you size queens want to step up for a demonstration? I've shot them in to hams at various distances and then cut them open. It's a mess and there is considerable bone fragmentation.

Not to say I don't have other choices. I have a 12 gauge pump, it has 00 buck in it. I have larger pistols too. But the shot to kill ratio on handgun rounds all the way up to .45cap is more than one and less than two. Even if the .45 is 1.1 (it is) and the 22lr is 1.6 ( it is) you are still pulling the trigger twice. With the 22 shot placement is near perfect, fast, and I can still hear.


... and you can shoot a man center-of-mass ten times with a 22LR and he may well still be able to return fire.... that is reality, it happens in the real world.


Its far less likely that he will return fire if he takes TWO doses of 12ga buck or .45 jhp in his center of mass.



22LR may kill, but it sucks at stopping.



Once upon a time, my niece dated an Olympic shotgun competitor. We had a conversation about shotgun pellet size, and he opined that he didn't understand why cops used buck shot instead of #8 shot, since the latter gave you a better pattern.... I said "because we're trying to blow large holes in men who are trying to kill us, not break a clay pidgeon." That's the diff...
 

tech30528

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,243
Reaction score
3,013
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Like I said I have other choices. My 00 shells are short. They are made by Aguila and have 6 shots in them (there are 9 in a normal one) and they have less powder behind them to avoid over penetration. On the up side my 5 shot Mossy will hold 7 of them, or 9 of the shortly slugs. Assuming my wife remembers the racking thumb safety on the left side and doesn't stand there fumbling with trying to load a shell that's fine. But we're all intimately familiar with 10 22s. People don't fly back off their feet when they get shot like in the movies. If you've been shot you are not aware of whether it was a 22 or a 9mm. Did you see how fast the guy in the video was unloading those shots on target? That was about right. With the 22 you have just been shot and you are still being shot. Whatever was on your mind is gone and you are not on task.

I agree about the #8. A friend of mine on shotgun target rounds:

"A shot from a 12 gauge at close range carries about 3 times the energy of a .45. A shotgun target round has about 85% of what 00 does. So you are taking 15% off of 3 rounds of .45. By all means use the target rounds."
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

Si vis pacem, para bellum
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
6,914
Reaction score
3,671
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
The best weapon for home defense is the one each individual person can manage effectively with the most incapacitating force. A number of factors are involved like recoil, enough arm strength to hold the weapon properly, etc.

For an individual who can manage long arm weapons effectively, a shotgun or center fire rifle will suffice. A handgun one can manage effectively without being overly concerned about recoil would commonly be a .380 acp, .38 Special, .357 magnum, 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 acp. Over-penetration is of course a concern making projectile and load ballistics choices very important. The firearm you choose for home protection must be effective enough to produce "one shot" incapacitating stops, without over-penetrating a person's body or dwelling. Shooting someone accidentally due to over-penetration is a valid concern one must consider when choosing a weapon for this purpose.

Remember, incapacitating an assailant is paramount in choosing a defensive weapon. A .22 LR or .22 magnum round can kill an assailant but not likely very rapidly, even when multiple shots are placed in a vital area. On the other hand, one shot with adequate force and "stopping power" placed in a vital area can incapacitate an assailant with one shot.

The importance of an incapacitating shot is not allowing your attacker to be able to return fire after being shot. You may inflict a fatal wound with a .22 rimfire cartridge but most likely not until after the assailant has had time to return fire. That's why finding the best firearm and ammunition capable of producing incapacitating "one shot" stops is most important in choosing a firearm for home protection.

If for some reason you are not able to manage a firearm that produces "one shot" incapacitating shot, then find a firearm you are most comfortable with that delivers "two shot" incapacitating shots, and if not that then "three shot' incapacitating shots, etc.

In other words, find the firearm that delivers the most effective performance you can manage safely and effectively.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,090
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Like I said I have other choices. My 00 shells are short. They are made by Aguila and have 6 shots in them (there are 9 in a normal one) and they have less powder behind them to avoid over penetration. On the up side my 5 shot Mossy will hold 7 of them, or 9 of the shortly slugs. Assuming my wife remembers the racking thumb safety on the left side and doesn't stand there fumbling with trying to load a shell that's fine. But we're all intimately familiar with 10 22s. People don't fly back off their feet when they get shot like in the movies. If you've been shot you are not aware of whether it was a 22 or a 9mm. Did you see how fast the guy in the video was unloading those shots on target? That was about right. With the 22 you have just been shot and you are still being shot. Whatever was on your mind is gone and you are not on task.

I agree about the #8. A friend of mine on shotgun target rounds:

"A shot from a 12 gauge at close range carries about 3 times the energy of a .45. A shotgun target round has about 85% of what 00 does. So you are taking 15% off of 3 rounds of .45. By all means use the target rounds."

the Olympic guy tried that argument with me. My reply can be summed up in one word: penetration. Buck goes deep, number 8 not so much. Energy transfer is only one factor.
 

SMTA

Ketsu no anna
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
32,661
Reaction score
7,746
Location
OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Curious alternative few of best home defense firearm

... and you can shoot a man center-of-mass ten times with a 22LR and he may well still be able to return fire.... that is reality, it happens in the real world.


Its far less likely that he will return fire if he takes TWO doses of 12ga buck or .45 jhp in his center of mass.



22LR may kill, but it sucks at stopping.



Once upon a time, my niece dated an Olympic shotgun competitor. We had a conversation about shotgun pellet size, and he opined that he didn't understand why cops used buck shot instead of #8 shot, since the latter gave you a better pattern.... I said "because we're trying to blow large holes in men who are trying to kill us, not break a clay pidgeon." That's the diff...
The .45 rounds that I carry daily have a nice large HP cavity for a reason - large holes and lots of damage.

I do not take any stock in smaller rounds and more of them.

If you need to drive a large stake in the ground, you use a sledgehammer, not a ball peen.
 

tech30528

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,243
Reaction score
3,013
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
One of my 10 22s is like this. Magnified red dot. Nice, very manageable.zk22 - Bing Images

There is a wrong pic in that set. Third row, second from the left is a Sub2000. Got one of those too. Takes 9mm Glock mags.
 
Last edited:

tech30528

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,243
Reaction score
3,013
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
the Olympic guy tried that argument with me. My reply can be summed up in one word: penetration. Buck goes deep, number 8 not so much. Energy transfer is only one factor.
Another advantage would be that you could argue you were never Mirandized.

"I SAID YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT!"
 

Μολὼν λαβέ

Si vis pacem, para bellum
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
6,914
Reaction score
3,671
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
the Olympic guy tried that argument with me. My reply can be summed up in one word: penetration. Buck goes deep, number 8 not so much. Energy transfer is only one factor.
I agree. A friend and I went on a hog hunt several years back. IMO he was more likely loaded for bear, not because of his choice of rifle, a Kimber, but because of the ammo choice he used, the 30-06 round. The ammunition can be loaded for a number of applications making it a fairly flexible round, e. g. 150 grain soft points for deer, and heavier bullets used for larger game animals. He used Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 180 grain soft point ammo for shooting hogs that day with a muzzle velocity of about 2650 FPS.

I on the other hand brought my Ruger #1 single shot rifle that fires the 45/70 Government round. It also is a fairly flexible round, especially when reloading the cartridge. That day however, I was using Winchester 300 grain hollow point ammo with a muzzle velocity of about 1880 FPS.

We both shot hogs that day. His weighed about 100 pounds and mine was a little bigger but they both fell to one shot. Mine flipped completely over in the air after being hit in the vitals with the bullet penetrating to the off shoulder. He was dead upon impact with the ground or DRT (dead right there).

When it was his shot the hog moved slightly as he fired and instead of hitting a quartering shot, the bullet hit the hog in the testes, traveled through the length of the hog and exited the frontal cavity chest area. The bullet traveled from one end of the hog to the other and split him wide open, from front to back. The hog dragged his entire body cavity organs on the ground about 100 yards before going down.

The point is that the 30-06 bullet had more energy, gauged obviously by its performance. The 45/70 on the other hand had greater terminal ballistics because it transferred its entire energy inside the hog, dropping it in his tracks.

I apply this experience to my home defense and concealed carry firearms caliber and ammo choices.
 
Last edited:

Naptyme

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2012
Messages
206
Reaction score
119
Location
Mississippi
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
One reason I prefer a pump shotgun for self defense is that in the right situation just the sound of racking the gun is enough to deter a home invasion without ever needing to actually fire the weapon. I had someone break a window in my apartment trying to break in, when he heard that his hand flew out the window so fast I don't see how he didn't get cut on the broken glass. If he were to continue to try and come in I would have been confident that the 00 shot would have permanently prevented him from ever making that mistake again. I also keep a .40 beside the bed in the event I cant make it to the shotty.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,510
Reaction score
50,090
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
One reason I prefer a pump shotgun for self defense is that in the right situation just the sound of racking the gun is enough to deter a home invasion without ever needing to actually fire the weapon. I had someone break a window in my apartment trying to break in, when he heard that his hand flew out the window so fast I don't see how he didn't get cut on the broken glass. If he were to continue to try and come in I would have been confident that the 00 shot would have permanently prevented him from ever making that mistake again. I also keep a .40 beside the bed in the event I cant make it to the shotty.

Well... that's one theory. You've got good weapons anyway... but I just don't like the notion of not having a round under the hammer ready to go, or having to rack the slide first. To each his own.
 

BretJ

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
6,457
Reaction score
2,533
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Well... that's one theory. You've got good weapons anyway... but I just don't like the notion of not having a round under the hammer ready to go, or having to rack the slide first. To each his own.
Always preferred semi shotties myself. Unless you practice a lot under the clock to simulate stress, it is way too easy to short stroke it. Good for my wife as all she has to do is take the safety off, point and shoot. Repeat as necessary. Much reduced recoil over a pump as well. The semis today are just as reliable with a wide variety of rounds. Keep mine with a round in the chamber, safety on. 6 more #1 buck in the magazine. I always laugh when I see shows where the good guys are looking for the bad guys and only just before entering the firefight, charge their weapon....
 
Top Bottom