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Congress: Iraq Pullout Vote Tonight

danarhea

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The GOP has abandoned the spending bill they are working on to play a little political brinkmanship, and actually, I agree with it. I want to personally see where legislators stand on the issue. Although the bill dramatically changes the way we would pull out of Iraq from what Jack Murtha had stated, that is still OK. Although I still believe it was wrong to go into Iraq in the first place, I am still on the fence when it comes to immediate disengagement. I am playing a gig tonight, so wont get to see it firsthand on CSPAN, but I do plan to tape it, and will watch it when I get back.

Sure, the vote is being done for political purposes, but this still gives us the opportunity to see the arguments for and against pullout, whether it is immediate, in the near future, in the distant future, or the establishment of a permanent presence in Iraq. This will be a great debate. Who else is going to watch it?

Article is here.
 

cnredd

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"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.
scottyz said:
Maybe that comment would be a little more credible if you showed the forum members that do not read the article whom "he" is referring to...That was pretty sneaky...

The fiery, emotional debate climaxed when Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.
A Marine colonel said that...The Rep. is just repeading what the colonel's position was.

Now I'd like to see how those who ploclaim Murtha's military infallibilty will respond to what the Marine colonels believes...

Will you side with the one who has a political arena to worry about or one who either does(which makes him even with Murtha) or doesn't(which would make him more credible)...
 

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How sneaky of me to provide the source so they could read the full article. :roll:
 

26 X World Champs

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cnredd said:
Maybe that comment would be a little more credible if you showed the forum members that do not read the article whom "he" is referring to...That was pretty sneaky...



A Marine colonel said that...The Rep. is just repeading what the colonel's position was.

Now I'd like to see how those who ploclaim Murtha's military infallibilty will respond to what the Marine colonels believes...

Will you side with the one who has a political arena to worry about or one who either does(which makes him even with Murtha) or doesn't(which would make him more credible)...
Yeah, great going by Congress' newest member. Her remarks were booed louder than anyone can ever remember. So loudly that microphones were shut off for 10 minutes while the Republican leadership pulled her aside.

Jean Schmidt then went back in front of the Congress and asked that her remarks be stricken from the record. She was totally and thoroughly humiliated, justifiably so. She viciously attacked another member of Congress who also happens to be an extremely decorated war hero from Korea & Vietnam.

The debate is on C-Span right now, and it's invigorating to see the Dems fighting back.

For anyone here to now defend Jean Schmidt's remark means, IMHO, that you are defending the vicious attack on a war hero and are OK with the acrimony that it's caused today in Washington.

Republicans are really feeling the heat these days, what a pleasure to see their come upance.
 

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It is an excellent, excellent political manuever. The Republicans whatever you may think of them, are about to pull off an amazing political stunt and manuver. I'll break it down.

By calling this vote it forces people to take a stance, the Republicans will most likely vote to stay in Iraq, and the Democrats have 3 options. To vote to stay and then become crushed by hypocracy of the war they are arguing against .(Regardless of the fact that is makes an untrue statement.) They can vote to leave and then be exposed to attacks of having no faith in the troops, not supporting the troops, and beiong cowardly etc. Or they can abstain which opens them up to what I like to call Charlie Brown Syndrome. They look wishy washy, after a few years and constant debating to abstain shows a terrible conclusion that they have either no real opinion, or are afraid to post an opinion, or have no idea.

This is going to be a sledgehammer blow against the Democrats.

Regardless of what you beleive in or whom you support, you have to recognize the political genius behind calling this vote.

I personally think the Republicans are sinking very low to further this point. (Though I support their position on the war.) I cannot deny that what they are doing is pure and simple. Political Genius.

The best absoloute crushingly best outcome for the Republicans is this. The Democrats fracture their votes all across the board IE, some vote to stay, some vote to leave, some abstain. In doing this the Republicans will be able to smell blood and hit a fractured party that for the first time will not ahve voted down party lines on this issue.

The most likely outcome is that the Democrats have met and decided to pick a particular line to follow, but in any case it is bad news for them, if they all vote in one direction then the whole party can be attacked for that particular beleif. While the Republicans remain safe having stood by their "Brave" convictions throughout the conflict.


I dont think I'm exaggerating when I say tonight may shape the next few elections and the political balance in the Senate.

The Republicans may very well want to withdraw as pressure has mounted on America to bring the troops home, but I think it is something more, something planned.

But make no mistake this is a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant political move by the Republicans. Even if it is a terribly, terribly low blow however not a generic political dirty trick. Just unexpected. In fact I'm impressed this is a piece of Genius Political Craftsmenship something very, very rarely seen in American Politics as of late which has dengrated to chastising and assaults on party lines. I'm impressed.

This is bad news for the Democrats. The Republicans are writing a script and have set it so the Democrats have no choice but to follow it. This kind of thing is always bad for the party being targeted.

If an ultimate victory is scored, than we will see the Democrats scattering their votes some yes some no some abstain. By doing this the party is fractured even further and the Republicans only need drive home what could be a mortal nail. But I dont forsee this happening. But anyway this turns out the Democrats suffer a defeat.

Of course I may be wrong, I've been wrong before, but I think I'm right on this point.
 

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superskippy said:
It is an excellent, excellent political manuever. The Republicans whatever you may think of them, are about to pull off an amazing political stunt and manuver. I'll break it down.

By calling this vote it forces people to take a stance, the Republicans will most likely vote to stay in Iraq, and the Democrats have 3 options. To vote to stay and then become crushed by hypocracy of the war they are arguing against .(Regardless of the fact that is makes an untrue statement.) They can vote to leave and then be exposed to attacks of having no faith in the troops, not supporting the troops, and beiong cowardly etc. Or they can abstain which opens them up to what I like to call Charlie Brown Syndrome. They look wishy washy, after a few years and constant debating to abstain shows a terrible conclusion that they have either no real opinion, or are afraid to post an opinion, or have no idea.
I've read that dems are likely to vote against this pullout because it's not what Murtha proposed.
 

cnredd

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26 X World Champs said:
Yeah, great going by Congress' newest member. Her remarks were booed louder than anyone can ever remember. So loudly that microphones were shut off for 10 minutes while the Republican leadership pulled her aside.

Jean Schmidt then went back in front of the Congress and asked that her remarks be stricken from the record. She was totally and thoroughly humiliated, justifiably so. She viciously attacked another member of Congress who also happens to be an extremely decorated war hero from Korea & Vietnam.

The debate is on C-Span right now, and it's invigorating to see the Dems fighting back.

For anyone here to now defend Jean Schmidt's remark means, IMHO, that you are defending the vicious attack on a war hero and are OK with the acrimony that it's caused today in Washington.

Republicans are really feeling the heat these days, what a pleasure to see their come upance.
I did not not condone nor try to defend the personal comments made by Scmidt's "source" pertaining to Murtha himself...I was pointing out that the original poster did not refer to the source when using the [quotes]...Who was the "he" in the article?...That's what was answered...

The second part still stands...

I'd like to know why Murtha has become the infallible voice due to his past history?...I'm sure I could pull up many Representatives, Senators, and current and veteran military personnel that say the opposite...Anybody here can pull up stuff that says the same from the same line of people...

Why does Murtha hold more water than everyone else?...

PS - And I've been watching since before Murtha gave his speech(Starting with the story about Pres. Carter and his trip to an Orioles baseball game in the helicopter and the armored truck)...up until now...The current vote is 358-3 against...
 
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Paladin

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cnredd said:
...A Marine colonel said that...The Rep. is just repeading what the colonel's position was....
It would seem to be more credible to name the colonel who allegedly called. Let that man make his comments in the flesh.
From what I know of marines (my dad served in Korea) they don't need nor would they use a go-between. They face their opponents face to face.
ted
 

scottyz

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3 Dems voted for a immediate pull out. It appeared in the preliminary results on CSPAN that 2 Repubs voted for pullout too, but changed their vote?
 

cnredd

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scottyz said:
3 Dems voted for a immediate pull out. It appeared in the preliminary results on CSPAN that 2 Repubs voted for pullout too, but changed their vote?
I saw that too...Right before I hit the showers, I saw there were 5 "for" votes... 2(R) & 3(D)...

When I came back down, It had a full total of 3(didn't say how it was split)...I was wondering about that, too...:confused:
 

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I think it would be a much more telling vote if they polled troops who were on their second or third deployment if they think they should stay.

Its easy to say "cut and run", but deployments have been stretched out to 2008. Six years is not cutting or running. All the Marine Colonels and all the Kings men can spout their rhetoric all they like, but if they cant put Iraq back together again, then its not defeat. Its going up against several hundred years of ingrained mentality.
 

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Republicans made the Democrates put up or shut up tonight. Very slick. The Texas congressman who spoke last turned it around on Murtha. The Democrates only card was Murtha being a war hero. That just slipped away...

I have no idea what the hell champs was watching.
 

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Well, lawmakers rejected calls for an Iraq pullout, which I agree with, just disagreed with going in their to begin with. I personally think it would have been better to have gone in during Desert Storm when we had about 500,000+ troops.
 

cnredd

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TimmyBoy said:
Well, lawmakers rejected calls for an Iraq pullout, which I agree with, just disagreed with going in their to begin with. I personally think it would have been better to have gone in during Desert Storm when we had about 500,000+ troops.
*sigh*...

Must we go through this AGAIN?!?...

From an earlier post...

Bush41 was told BY THE UNITED NATIONS to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, but NOT to enter Iraq and remove him....That is exactly what was done....

And people accuse him of not doing enough...Doing more would have gone against the United Nation's wishes.

Now Bush43 is told BY THE UNITED NATIONS to wait for the completion of inspections and NOT to enter Iraq and remove him....The exact OPPOSITE was done...

And people accuse him of doing too much...He is already going against the United Nation's wishes.

Let me get this straight....

The right thing to do for Bush41 was to NOT listen to the UN and invade Iraq.

The right thing to do for Bush43 was to listen to the UN and NOT invade Iraq.

There is only one logical reasoning for this, and it is plainly obvious....

The United Nations suck...
 

TimmyBoy

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cnredd said:
*sigh*...

Must we go through this AGAIN?!?...

From an earlier post...

Bush41 was told BY THE UNITED NATIONS to kick Saddam out of Kuwait, but NOT to enter Iraq and remove him....That is exactly what was done....

And people accuse him of not doing enough...Doing more would have gone against the United Nation's wishes.

Now Bush43 is told BY THE UNITED NATIONS to wait for the completion of inspections and NOT to enter Iraq and remove him....The exact OPPOSITE was done...

And people accuse him of doing too much...He is already going against the United Nation's wishes.

Let me get this straight....

The right thing to do for Bush41 was to NOT listen to the UN and invade Iraq.

The right thing to do for Bush43 was to listen to the UN and NOT invade Iraq.

There is only one logical reasoning for this, and it is plainly obvious....

The United Nations suck...
I don't know why you are going through it again. It still doesn't change the fact that the only reason why the US liberated Kuwait was for oil and it doesn't change the fact that the US is in Iraq for oil as well. But figuire if you are going to fight a war, fight it right and go for complete and total victory and fight it right the first time. That means during Desert Storm when we had 500,000+ troops on the ground, we should have went all the way to Baghdad rather than do a half ass job and only liberated Kuwait. But aagain, it still doesn't change the fact that we were over their for oil.
 

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danarhea said:
The GOP has abandoned the spending bill they are working on to play a little political brinkmanship, and actually, I agree with it. I want to personally see where legislators stand on the issue. Although the bill dramatically changes the way we would pull out of Iraq from what Jack Murtha had stated, that is still OK.
Actaully it didn't. The Dems were trying to spin it that way and most of the leftest media was going along with the bogus claim. But it basically did what he proposed, begin the immediate withdrawal of our troops. Yes at a pace that insured their safety but beginning NOW.


Sure, the vote is being done for political purposes, but this still gives us the opportunity to see the arguments for and against pullout, whether it is immediate, in the near future, in the distant future, or the establishment of a permanent presence in Iraq. This will be a great debate. Who else is going to watch it?
It's a put up or shut bill. EVERYONE wants to get out, can we all agree on that EVERYONE would prefer we not be there. The Democrats have been screaming for a withdrawal where her is their chance to go on record. And now the complain about it.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/GOP_pulls_tax_bill_and_calls_1118.html
 

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Quote:
"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.

Yes someone needed to remind the Senator of that and the Marine Colonel who said was the perfect person to do so. Murtha was trying to use his standing as a former Marine to bolster his position, it backfired.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
Yeah, great going by Congress' newest member. Her remarks were booed louder than anyone can ever remember. So loudly that microphones were shut off for 10 minutes while the Republican leadership pulled her aside.
The Dems should be embarrased for booing the words of an active duty Marine Colonel who was properly reminding Murtha of the heritage he improperly using.

Jean Schmidt then went back in front of the Congress and asked that her remarks be stricken from the record.
Which she should not have done.

She was totally and thoroughly humiliated, justifiably so.
That was certainly not evident.

She viciously attacked another member of Congress who also happens to be an extremely decorated war hero from Korea & Vietnam.
"vicious" as in the attacks on the president and vice-president by the Democrats?

The debate is on C-Span right now, and it's invigorating to see the Dems fighting back.
More of acting like little children and now trying to spin their way out of the position they took.

For anyone here to now defend Jean Schmidt's remark means, IMHO, that you are defending the vicious attack on a war hero and are OK with the acrimony that it's caused today in Washington.
Why was it vicious? Are you accusing the ative duty Marine Colonel of a vicious attack? Why have you not voiced such an IMHO about the vicious attacks on Bush and Cheney?

Republicans are really feeling the heat these days, what a pleasure to see their come upance.
:spin::rofl the Dems just got a put up or shut up thrown in thier face and they backed down. The Republican position just moved up a notch.
 

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Stinger said:
Quote:
"He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.

Yes someone needed to remind the Senator of that and the Marine Colonel who said was the perfect person to do so. Murtha was trying to use his standing as a former Marine to bolster his position, it backfired.
What a bunch of BS! Take your blinders off!

1. Schmidt was universally condemned for her personal attack and was FORCED to make an apology and have her remarks stricken from the record. Did you miss that or is it inconvenient for you to include this FACT in the debate?

2. The only people naive (aka ignorant) enough to believe that Hunter's non-binding resolution was a Democratic effort are the very same Bushie's that have been blinded all along. The 66% of America who disagree with Bush and his policies are on to Hunter's grandstanding gesture.

3. Murtha's resolution was never brought up for a vote. For anyone to suggest that an altered version introduced by a Republican means $hit then you really would be in LA LA land.

Murtha spoke from his heart this week. Hunter, Schmidt et al spoke from their bag of political tricks. The American public knows the difference.

This last week has been yet another bummer week for Republicans. The dyke is leaking and as each day passes it's every Republican for themselves as evident by the withdrawl of the ANWAR drilling funds and Tax Cuts from the latest spending bill.

I'm enjoying watching the Republicans squirm and the Dems on the offensive. Each day now the country inches towards the Democratic party. Republicans living in denial are GOOD for Democrats because denial also means lack of action, lack of cohesiveness, and lack of a rebuttal.

It's too soon to see the actual results of Hunter's bullshit referendum, but the pictures of the House members yelling at each other, with Republicans getting booed and Dems getting cheered are powerful images. The video of Schmidt calling Murtha a ***** and McLelland comparing Murtha to Moore is free publicity that Dem strategists could not have planned, and the next round of polls should be quite interesting.

Murtha said something really intelligent yesterday, he said that this war cannot be won on the battlefield, that the only way to win is through diplomacy at the negotiating table. So true.

Murtha also reiterated that the Iraq war from day one had NOTHING to do with terrorism or Al Quaeda, and this vital fact is at the core of why America is not buying Bush's bullshit anymore.
 

26 X World Champs

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Stinger said:
Why have you not voiced such an IMHO about the vicious attacks on Bush and Cheney?
Hmmm...maybe because they started a useless war that's killed tens of thousands of people and maimed tens of thousands of others? Maybe because spending more than $200 billion so far? Maybe because America has become the most hated nation in the world under Bush / Cheney?

Now, compare that to Murtha who simply came out and said that he thinks the war is wrong and that we cannot win. He didn't say to cut and run, that is Republican bullshit. He DID say that we should get out as soon as "practical". You don't agree with that? If we shouldn't leave as soon as "practical" then when in God's name should we leave?

Murtha goes to Bethesda Naval Hospital to visit our injured soldiers more than any other Congressperson. He's speaking from his heart and has deduced from multiple visits to Iraq and after speaking with our Generals and our soldiers, our wounded soldiers and the families of our soldiers what he said this week.

Don't spin this into Murtha being some sort of dove when in fact he's been a hawk his entire career.

Intelligent people are humble enough to recognize when they are wrong. They try to do something to right the wrong.

Raging addicts like Bush live in denial, only hear what they want to hear, surround themselves with YES men and women who stroke his massive ego. The few people in his administration who questioned (not disagreed with) his policies have all been dismissed leaving Bush only with ass kissers.

Bush has earned his criticism, Murtha has not, and that Mr. Stinger is the vital and clear difference. Bush is the decision maker, and with poor decisions that cost thousands of lives comes harsh critics, thank God!
 

danarhea

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I just got done watching the videotape of the debate. I couldnt see it live, but my wife did tape it for me.

I think that this whole sorry episode can be summed up by the points of order that were raised during the debate by the Congressman from California. After several GOP speakers had referred to the bill as Murtha's bill, 2 points of order were raised. The first point of order was to ask the chair if this was Murtha's bill which was being debated. The chair dishonestly said that was open to debate, after which the hall was filled with boos and catcalling, and the chairman had trouble bring the house in order. At that point, the second point of order was raised, which was to ask the following procedural question - "Is this the Murtha Amendment we are debating or is it the Hunter Amendment?". Pinned down, the chairman was forced to admit that this was not the Murtha Amendment, but the amendment put forth by Hunter, in which the wording had been significantly changed from what Murtha was calling for.

I know that, in recent days, the Republican Party has been an ethically challenged one, but yesterday's actions by them not only crossed the lines of ethics and morality, but completely obliterated those lines. I mean, to sponsor a bill that is worded in a way to show a cut and run strategy, then to attempt to attribute the bill to Murtha, and pin it all on him, is one of the sleaziest, most reprehensible, and dishonest maneuvers I have ever seen in my entire 56 years of life.

Murtha never suggested cut and run. He suggested first of all a staged redeployment of troops, with a fast reaction force to be stationed just over the horizon, and mentioned Kuwait as a base for those troops. In any event, if needed, those troops could go into where any fires are, kick ass, then come back to Kuwait. Seems like a workable plan. You give control back to the Iraqis, and keep the threat of massive force available, while taking our troops out of harms way, and forcing the Iraqis to take responsibility, all at the same time. No longer would we be seen as occupiers, the reason for the insurgency would be gone, and the Iraqis could continue the political process.

That the Republicans would take the plan outlined in the above paragraph, change it to immediate complete withdrawal, and then to claim that this was Murtha's bill, is nothing short of disgusting. You know, I have never been crazy about the Democrats, and am still not impressed with them, but at this point in time, I have nothing but utter contempt now for the House Republcans who tried to pull of this sleazy sham on the American people.

As for the vote itself, when my tape ran out, it looked like all the votes had been counted, and I only saw 2 Democrats and 1 Republican in favor, and this is appropriate. This was not a bill. This was a sham, a lie, and a slander.
 
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Republicans tell dems to put up or shut up about cutting and running in Iraq.

The republicans in the house of representatives told the democrats to put up or shut up in cutting and running in Iraq last night.....And by the votes the democrats shut up........


http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsA...Z_01_MCC915802_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-VOTE.xml

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a maneuver designed to discredit Iraq war critics, the Republican-led House of Representatives overwhelmingly defeated a resolution on Friday to pull U.S. troops immediately from Iraq.

Republicans, who introduced the surprise resolution hours before lawmakers were to start a Thanksgiving holiday recess, said the vote was intended to show backing for U.S. forces.

Democrats denounced it as a political stunt and an attack on Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a leading Democratic military hawk who stunned his colleagues on Thursday by calling for troops to be withdrawn as quickly as possible.
 
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Re: Republicans tell dems to put up or shut up about cutting and running in Iraq.

The vote wasn't even close. Turns out that not so many Americans (congressmen included) are interested in surrendering. The Kurds have already been screwed enough. There's no way we're going to let that happen again. The war in Iraq will be over when it's over. Cheers.
 
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