Completely and Totally Abolish the Military or Institute a Full Military Draft?

[TimmyBoy]

It's interesting to see your remarks on the "ruling class." See folks even with Gunny, we see class comes through when we talk of military service. And we all know who the "ruling class" is. It is the rich.

 

[TurtleDude]

It's interesting to see your remarks on the "ruling class." See folks even with Gunny, we see class comes through when we talk of military service. And we all know who the "ruling class" is. It is the rich.

Yep and to quote Robert Plant

WE ARE YOUR OVERLORDS :mrgreen:

 

[TimmyBoy]

Here is another good thing to the draft Gunny. Before I went to Bosnia, myself and many Americans opposed the involvement of US troops in this country. When I got their, I changed my mind and decided that we needed US troops in this country and that we did not get their soon enough. So, I would like to think with a drafted citizen army, the american people as a whole will understand the politics of their nation much better, the rest of the world and be able to make more intelligent decisions when voting at the polls. I would like to think that the draft would teach Americans the value of service and having to sacrafice and be responsible for the freedoms they enjoy.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Yep and to quote Robert Plant

WE ARE YOUR OVERLORDS :mrgreen:

Well, at the rate I am going, I am hoping to join the ruling class sometime soon. I am one of the few that was able to break out of Middle Class to ruling class, thanks to the GI Bill. You know what they say, if you can't beat em, join em.

 

[TurtleDude]

Well, at the rate I am going, I am hoping to join the ruling class sometime soon. I am one of the few that was able to break out of Middle Class to ruling class, thanks to the GI Bill. You know what they say, if you can't beat em, join em.

good for you and when you start paying 6 figures in taxes and hearing idiots like most of the DNC whining you aren't paying enough I suspect your sense of reality will get a bit sharper

 

[TimmyBoy]

good for you and when you start paying 6 figures in taxes and hearing idiots like most of the DNC whining you aren't paying enough I suspect your sense of reality will get a bit sharper

I pay quite a bit right now. I was the one who started the Excessive Taxation thread. I just hold true to my opinion, everybody should do some time in the military. Some argue it's best to do away with the military altogether, but I think some things are worth fighting for.

 

[Kandahar]

Funny you should mention Einstein. I believe he had a quote on military service:

"The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service." -Albert Einstien

That quote completely undermines your entire argument.

Actually here is two quotes from two of my favorite thinkers on education:

"Education is a system of imposed ignorance." -Noam Chomsky

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school" -Albert Einstien

Or his is a better one:

"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." -Albert Einstien

Gee, I need to work on keeping my mouth shut.

None of these other quotes are in any way relevant to the subject at hand.

 

[TimmyBoy]

good for you and when you start paying 6 figures in taxes and hearing idiots like most of the DNC whining you aren't paying enough I suspect your sense of reality will get a bit sharper

Actually, I have heard that the super rich pay little if any taxes. By super rich I mean people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.

 

[Kandahar]

Me personally, I would rather live in the America where people accepted being drafted into the military and it was just something everybody did with little complaint. I think America has changed alot and it is not as great as it used to be. Americans do not deserve the freedom their forefathers gave them. To me, the America of history is more worthy of fighting for than today's current America and it has alot to do with people's attitudes today. It's no surprise given that many Americans never had to serve or lay their life on the line for a solid principle. Americans today just want to kick back and take the easy way out of everything.

Just once I'd like to see you make two posts in a row without a single self-contradiction. You're correct that Americans today have never had to fight for their freedom. But isn't that a GOOD thing?

You seem very much against America's current foreign policy...but then suggest that the solution is to stir up more conflict so we can fight for our freedom. You advocate mandatory military service...but then say that you would never fight for America and anyone who would is a fool.

You're a hypocrite.

 

[MSgt]

Here is another good thing to the draft Gunny. Before I went to Bosnia, myself and many Americans opposed the involvement of US troops in this country. When I got their, I changed my mind and decided that we needed US troops in this country and that we did not get their soon enough. So, I would like to think with a drafted citizen army, the american people as a whole will understand the politics of their nation much better, the rest of the world and be able to make more intelligent decisions when voting at the polls. I would like to think that the draft would teach Americans the value of service and having to sacrafice and be responsible for the freedoms they enjoy.

This is a very good point. At least as far as giving the civilian populous a better understanding of deployed military events.

 

[TurtleDude]

I pay quite a bit right now. I was the one who started the Excessive Taxation thread. I just hold true to my opinion, everybody should do some time in the military. Some argue it's best to do away with the military altogether, but I think some things are worth fighting for.

once again the only reason to have a draft is not to engage in some sort of unconstitutional social(ist) engineering but to increase military forces and right now, with the way the military is and the skills required NONE of the major experts want a draft

those who call for a draft ALWAYS couch it in terms of socialist nonsense not what is good for the country's military and our ability to fight off enemies.

I think everyone who votes should have to pay taxes and every time people through their congress votes to increase taxes, everyone who votes should have to pay more. Not this nonsense where only one group pays the death confiscation taxes or has to pay more when the top bracket is jacked up.

if you can make an argument that a draft helps the military then I will listen. Until then, I reject your premise, your solution and your argument since it has nothing to do with the only proper argument for a draft

 

[oldreliable67]

this country was founded on a citizen army not a volunteer, professional army

Thats true. But the times, they have changed. What worked then may not work any more, as strongly suggested by our experience in Viet Nam. If and when a national crises occurs that requires massive manpower, conscription will be the only solution. (Whether we will ever have another crisis of that proportion is another thread). If it is indeed a national crisis and widely perceived as such, it his highly likely that resistance to a national conscription will be minimal.

Until the occurence of a national crisis of a severity that would require conscription, our military should be all-volunteer. For our military 'first-responders', we require dedication and professionalism. In anything other than a national emergency of the type described above, we won't get it with a conscripted force.

 

[MrFungus420]

I don't see how Israel's model of a military draft is an untenable postion. I think it would be a good alternative that is fair for everybody.

No, I said that advocating not having a military was untenable.

And, a draft is a form of involuntary servitude. As such, it is unconsitutional.

 

[MrFungus420]

Funny you should mention Einstein. I believe he had a quote on military service:

"The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service." -Albert Einstien

Actually here is two quotes from two of my favorite thinkers on education:

Maybe, instead of being concerned about quotes about education, you should improve your own. I'd reccomend concentrating on conjugating verbs. It should be "...here are two...", not "...here is two..."

"Education is a system of imposed ignorance." -Noam Chomsky

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school" -Albert Einstien

Or his is a better one:

Did you mean to say something like "Here is his better one"?

"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." -Albert Einstien

Gee, I need to work on keeping my mouth shut.

Yes, you do...

 

[TimmyBoy]

No, I said that advocating not having a military was untenable.

And, a draft is a form of involuntary servitude. As such, it is unconsitutional.

Then I guess we have been practicing something unconstitutional for a long time in our history.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I have no reason to disbelieve your claim about your uncle-just do the research-the backgrounds of those in the elite branches of the service-the one's who are most likely to be on the cutting edge of military ops are GENERALLY well educated with well above average intelligence. People who grow up in poverty and broken homes rarely have the skills and tools needed to make the rigorous selection tests that the elite units use to pick their elite

I don't know what sort of family life my Uncle had in his adopted home, but I do know that the family life he and my mother left was not so good. Yet, my uncle was able to make the SEALs and serve his full time honorably, even though his original home life was not good. Honestly speaking, he says he sort of wished he never did it. I think he got caught up in some crap while doing his time in the SEALs or in other words, a mission he had serious disagreements with. He identified with my views of how the government is crooks. I explained to him how Clinton lied and covered up the genocide in Bosnia then sent diplomats (Charles Redman, who was a diplomatic hitman carrying out a contract on Bosnia) to force agreements on Bosnia's Muslims which essientially made the US accomplices to the crime of genocide. I think some of the missions he went on long ago are still classifed today, so he doesn't say much about it. He told me a few war stories and generally, he agrees with my views that the government is crooks.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I mean, me personally, I would have no desire to be a Ranger or Navy SEAL or Special Forces or Marine Recon. Joining these type units is like asking for severe punishment and torture. I am a happy camper just being an average joe. I do like a challenge like writing video games for computer software or writing software that uses engineering concepts to build planes or military equipment. I also enjoy military history. But, I don't think I would really want to be part of a special forces unit, not so much because I would hate the challenge, but because I am such a free thinker, that they could only tolerate so much of it. You do have to be brainwashed to a large degree when you are in the military or special forces type unit and I simply ask too many questions. Heck, my average joe combat unit had enough problems dealing with me and sometimes thinking for myself too much, asking too many questions, why would a special forces unit want me?

 

[jamesrage]

Yes, it does...

So anyway...

What do you think would happen if we abolished our military? What would happen?

If you know what the word "target" means then you know that if we abolished our military we will be the target of every scumbag nation that hates us.

 

[TurtleDude]

Then I guess we have been practicing something unconstitutional for a long time in our history.

we have been practicing plenty of unconstitutional stuff going back to

1) Lincoln suspending the writ of habeas corpus

2) the death confiscation tax imposed by TR for social engineering purposes

and the grandaddy of them all

3) FDR's intimidation of the federal courts to uphold his commerce clause expansion used to justify the 1934 NFA and the socialist NEW DEAL not to mention the internment of thousand US CITIZENS based on ethnicity

 

[TimmyBoy]

we have been practicing plenty of unconstitutional stuff going back to

1) Lincoln suspending the writ of habeas corpus

2) the death confiscation tax imposed by TR for social engineering purposes

and the grandaddy of them all

3) FDR's intimidation of the federal courts to uphold his commerce clause expansion used to justify the 1934 NFA and the socialist NEW DEAL not to mention the internment of thousand US CITIZENS based on ethnicity

And the Income Tax that was started during the Civil War, declared unconstitutional and suspended then was later re-instituted once again at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

[TimmyBoy]

3) FDR's intimidation of the federal courts to uphold his commerce clause expansion used to justify the 1934 NFA and the socialist NEW DEAL not to mention the internment of thousand US CITIZENS based on ethnicity

I am aware of this incident. Here is a question I have. How is it that he was able to get away with it? What does this say about our government of yesterday and today? And what for that matter, does it say about the American people?

 

[jamesrage]

I am aware of this incident. Here is a question I have. How is it that he was able to get away with it? What does this say about our government of yesterday and today? And what for that matter, does it say about the American people?

Look up the "EX PARTE QUIRIN",Sedition Act of 1918 and the Espionage Act of 1917.

If history has taught us anything it is that when the constitution is interpreted a certian way then anything can be legal.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Due to the fact that inevitably the risk of death and loss of life will fall onto the nation's more poorer segments of society and society doesn't want to accept a citizen army that we used to have in the past while on the same token we still need a military then the only solution to assure some sort of justice to those who see combat action is this:

1) Those veterans who saw combat will have their votes counted as three votes instead of one.

2) They will have preference to a running for a political office over any candidate that might have been able to raise millions and millions of dollars to do the same.

3) They will have a choice of any school in the nation they wish to attend and will have all expenses paid by the US government, to include tuition and living expenses.

4) If a soldier is killed in action, all of their children will have their college education paid in total full, to also include living expenses. The widow shall recieve a monthly pension and in sort of life insurance proceeds such as SGLI.

These are some of the ideas I have had to assure justice to those who must risk their lives in combat and assure that they are givenn stronger voices and grand opportunties in recognition of their willingness to sacrafice society's most valuable asset: human life. Rules will only apply to those soldiers who saw direct combat in a war zone. Since no amount of tax dollars can replace a life, this is the least society can do to assure that combat veterans have a strong voice in society since their lives are at stake when society makes decisions to send them to war. It is also to assure they have a grand opportunity for veterans who have seen direct combat to be able to move up more easily in soceity in recognition that their lives and the sacrafices they made on behalf of society's decision are the most valuable of anything that society has to offer. No amount of money can pay for the loss of life or the danger that comes with risking one's life in war. Since their lives were placed on the line, they deserve to have a stronger voice in politics and they deserve to have just as much opportunity, if not more, than anyone else in soceity.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Since society cannot accept a draft, then society must be willing to give more political power to those who saw direct combat and had their lives directly threatenned in this combat.

 

[Kandahar]

1) Those veterans who saw combat will have their votes counted as three votes instead of one.

That isn't justice, that's an oligarchy of soldiers...a junta if you will. We'll put aside for a moment the obvious sexism in this policy. What makes veterans more worthy of a vote than anyone else? There are other issues besides war in every election cycle.

2) They will have preference to a running for a political office over any candidate that might have been able to raise millions and millions of dollars to do the same.

"Preference" in what way? Are you saying that the will of the voters should be ignored if there's a veteran on the ballot?

3) They will have a choice of any school in the nation they wish to attend and will have all expenses paid by the US government, to include tuition and living expenses.

4) If a soldier is killed in action, all of their children will have their college education paid in total full, to also include living expenses. The widow shall recieve a monthly pension and in sort of life insurance proceeds such as SGLI.

The current system of pay and benefits seems to be working fine, as there are plenty of soldiers who obviously disagree with you that their conditions are "unjust." If they felt that way, they wouldn't be serving in the first place.