Completely and Totally Abolish the Military or Institute a Full Military Draft?

[TurtleDude]

The point I am trying to make, is that capitalism is the only practical economic system, but that the risk of death in combat needs to spread more fairly. I think this is one of the injustices of capitalism. At least in Israel, if you are a citizen, no matter how rich or poor you are, you pull your fair share of the weight or you get the hell out. Nobody is going to carry your weight for you. That's not how it works here in the US.

who is carry the weight in terms of taxes when 5% pay more than 50% of the taxes and the top 60% pay 94% of the total FIT burden? if 40% of my income goes to taxes that means if I work 2000 hours a year 800 hours are spent in servitude to the state.

Trust me, I don't get near back what I pay

 

[Duke]

What kind of full-fledged dumbass made this poll?
Both of the options are incredibly stupid.


Duke

 

[TimmyBoy]

who is carry the weight in terms of taxes when 5% pay more than 50% of the taxes and the top 60% pay 94% of the total FIT burden? if 40% of my income goes to taxes that means if I work 2000 hours a year 800 hours are spent in servitude to the state.

Trust me, I don't get near back what I pay

I thought we had this discussion before. I don't think you have any regard or value for life. No amount of taxes that you or I pay is enough to compensate for somebody losing their life. No amount of tax dollars can replace that life. Just because you or I pay more in taxes does not entitle you to an exemption from military service. You also mentioned having a fair tax system where everybody pays a same fixed rate for government. Me personally, I have no problems with it. It forces government to be more efficient. Everybody pays the same price for government. I think it is fair. Just because you are more productive working or offer a rare skill set doesn't mean you should pay a higher price for the service of government as somebody who is less productive.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Hmmm, I wonder what sort of legal challenges I could mount in a matter like this? What kind of strategy I could pursue.

 

[TimmyBoy]

who is carry the weight in terms of taxes when 5% pay more than 50% of the taxes and the top 60% pay 94% of the total FIT burden? if 40% of my income goes to taxes that means if I work 2000 hours a year 800 hours are spent in servitude to the state.

Trust me, I don't get near back what I pay

Heck, if I had it my way, I would abolish the current tax system. I pay alot in taxes too. I make good money at what I do. I am not part of the poor any longer. So please, do me a favor and do not talk to me as if I do not understand your complaint, beacuse I do. But just because you pay more in taxes, doesn't mean you should be exempt from putting your life on the line as somebody who is poorer and pays less. That's an excuse that you are offerring. Not to mention, their are people who are richer than you and pay no taxes at all, legally.

 

[Kandahar]

The point I am trying to make, is that capitalism is the only practical economic system, but that the risk of death in combat needs to spread more fairly.

No it doesn't, that's stupid. What exactly is more "fair" about a system where people are forced to risk their life, as opposed to a system where people risk their life because they've weighed the risks/benefits and decided they want to? What exactly is more "fair" about a system where someone who COULD be contributing much more to society is instead forced to pick up a gun?

I think this is one of the injustices of capitalism. At least in Israel, if you are a citizen, no matter how rich or poor you are, you pull your fair share of the weight or you get the hell out. Nobody is going to carry your weight for you. That's not how it works here in the US.

You keep citing Israel as if it was some kind of perfect model to work from, when in actuality there isn't a first-world country in the world with more military/economic problems than Israel. Your argument that people will "demand accountability" if everyone has to be in the military is undermined by your citation of Israel, which has both conscription and a hard-line foreign policy. Your argument that everyone regardless of wealth or ability should be conscripted is undermined by your citation of Israel, which has one of the weakest and most socialistic economies of any first-world nation partly as a result of overqualified people being forced to waste their time with military service.

 

[TimmyBoy]

No it doesn't, that's stupid. What exactly is more "fair" about a system where people are forced to risk their life, as opposed to a system where people risk their life because they want to? What exactly is more "fair" about a system where someone who COULD be contributing much more to society is instead forced to pick up a gun?

It's not stupid, in my unit people were forced to pick up a gun because their parents didn't have enough money to send them to a decent school. This is a form of involuntariy servitude when you think about it. It's perfectly fair to ask rich people to put their lives on the line just as much as any poor people. The lives of rich people are not more valuable than the lives of poor people.

 

[Kandahar]

But just because you pay more in taxes, doesn't mean you should be exempt from putting your life on the line as somebody who is poorer and pays less. That's an excuse that you are offerring.

There is no law that mandates that every poor person must serve in the military (most don't). If there was, your complaint might be more legitimate. There is also no law that prohibits wealthy people from serving in the military.

 

[TimmyBoy]

There is no law that mandates that every poor person must serve in the military (most don't). If there was, your complaint might be more legitimate. There is also no law that prohibits wealthy people from serving in the military.

We are not talking about the law. We are talking about what is just and right.

 

[Kandahar]

It's not stupid, in my unit people were forced to pick up a gun because their parents didn't have enough money to send them to a decent school. This is a form of involuntariy servitude when you think about it.

No it isn't. There are other jobs available besides the military, and many poor people choose NOT to serve in the military. Those who do chose that job because they liked the attractive wages/benefits, and/or because they felt pride in what they were doing. No one forced them to join.

It's perfectly fair to ask rich people to put their lives on the line just as much as any poor people. The lives of rich people are not more valuable than the lives of poor people.

More of this class warfare bullshit. You continue to ignore the fact that YOU ARE FORCING PEOPLE INTO INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE. You also continue to ignore the fact that:

1. A draft will result in a flood of underqualified, incompetent morons into the military. This will drastically reduce efficiency.

2. A draft will result in a flood of overqualified, educated people who could be contributing much more to society as teachers, doctors, business-owners, or a wide variety of other things. This will drastically hurt the economy.

3. A draft will result in a flood of people (in general) into the military, thus driving the military budget through the roof.

4. A draft will result in a disproportionate number of people who are in the military against their will, thus drastically lowering the morale of the military.

5. There is NO evidence (I've already refuted your example) that military service would cause people to hold politicians to a higher standard of accountability.

 

[AlbqOwl]

It's not stupid, in my unit people were forced to pick up a gun because their parents didn't have enough money to send them to a decent school. This is a form of involuntariy servitude when you think about it. It's perfectly fair to ask rich people to put their lives on the line just as much as any poor people. The lives of rich people are not more valuable than the lives of poor people.

I come from a long line of military types dating all the way back to the Revolutionary War. I have living relatives and friends who fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and currently in Afghanistan and Iraq. There isn't a 'poor' person in the lot. Every single one of them who enlisted could have done numerous other things. Other members of their families chose to do other things. I would guess that every member of the armed forces today has family members who chose to do other things.

To delegate poverty, inferiority, substandard education, or victim status to those intelligent, brave, capable, and dedicated young men and women in the military is not only dishonest. It is shameful. They deserve all our respect, encouragement, and appreciation.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I come from a long line of military types dating all the way back to the Revolutionary War. I have living relatives and friends who fought in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and currently in Afghanistan and Iraq. There isn't a 'poor' person in the lot. Every single one of them who enlisted could have done numerous other things. Other members of their families chose to do other things. I would guess that every member of the armed forces today has family members who chose to do other things.

To delegate poverty, inferiority, substandard education, or victim status to those intelligent, brave, capable, and dedicated young men and women in the military is not only dishonest. It is shameful. You should be ashamed.

I am not ashamed at all. Their is no reason for me to be ashamed by telling the truth. I do acknowledge that not everybody is poor who joins the military. But I will say it is these people who are foolish and niave. They don't know any better and don't know what they are getting themselves into or what they are truly and really fighting for. I am descended from American Revolutionary War veterans. My family came to the Virginia Colony in the 1600s on my dad's side of the family. I am also descended from Civil War Veterans, World War I, II, Korea and my father was in Vietnam with the Air Force. He never saw combat in Vietnam. My uncle on my mother's side was a Navy SEAL, but the point of view he and I have are remarkably similar after I came back from Bosnia. See, my mother never knew he existed because she was a foster child and we first met him several years ago and he is married to a very wealthy woman. But to listen to him talk about his views, they were remarkably similar to my own. You look at American behavior overseas and here at home in eariler times. Their was genocide committed on the Native American peoples to get gold in the state of GA. Their was the Spanish American war to get the resources of the Spanish empire. The US military in recent times have been used to facilitate and force the unjust partitioning of Bosnia and to invade a Middle East country for it's oil. Every war through history is started on a lie. It's usually fought for money, land or resources. Where their is war, their is money involved somewhere, somehow.

I would have whole heartedly and gladly gave my life in Bosnia if it meant doing so would save 250,000 Bosnian lives. But the truth of the matter is, I wasn't their to "save muslims" rather I was their to finish and enforce the partitioning of the country in an unjust treaty that the US forced on Bosnia's Muslims after the US acted as accomplices to the crime of genocide in this country. Their was no oil in Bosnia for the US to have so we never really wanted to get involved. It's the same story in Rwanda. Their is oil in Iraq though.

But back to the more specific topic of the poor serving in the military. Even during the American Revolutionary War the poor were serving as our soldiers. In my unit, I can honestly tell you with full heart, that generally, for the most part, it was people with less opportunity who served in my unit and who joined because they had to find something for a job or something that can provide them with opportunity. And generally, most of the people in my unit did not come from rich backgrounds. They were either poor or lower middle class, with a few middle class folks like myself.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I guess, if we got rid of the military, it's unacceptable, because then the rich wouldn't have the means to commit genocide on Native Americans to get more gold or to invade Middle East countries for oil.

 

[TimmyBoy]

But you know what they say, the more times change, the more they stay the same. Those "barbaric" Native Americans. The "evil" Islamic religion and it's followers.

 

[AlbqOwl]

I am not ashamed at all. Their is no reason for me to be ashamed by telling the truth. I do acknowledge that not everybody is poor who joins the military. But I will say it is these people who are foolish and niave. They don't know any better and don't know what they are getting themselves into or what they are truly and really fighting for. I am descended from American Revolutionary War veterans. My family came to the Virginia Colony in the 1600s on my dad's side of the family. I am also descended from Civil War Veterans, World War I, II, Korea and my father was in Vietnam with the Air Force. He never saw combat in Vietnam. My uncle on my mother's side was a Navy SEAL, but the point of view he and I have are remarkably similar after I came back from Bosnia. See, my mother never knew he existed because she was a foster child and we first met him several years ago and he is married to a very wealthy woman. But to listen to him talk about his views, they were remarkably similar to my own. You look at American behavior overseas and here at home in eariler times. Their was genocide committed on the Native American peoples to get gold in the state of GA. Their was the Spanish American war to get the resources of the Spanish empire. The US military in recent times have been used to facilitate and force the unjust partitioning of Bosnia and to invade a Middle East country for it's oil. Every war through history is started on a lie. It's usually fought for money, land or resources. Where their is war, their is money involved somewhere, somehow.

I would have whole heartedly and gladly gave my life in Bosnia if it meant doing so would save 250,000 Bosnian lives. But the truth of the matter is, I wasn't their to "save muslims" rather I was their to finish and enforce the partitioning of the country in an unjust treaty that the US forced on Bosnia's Muslims after the US acted as accomplices to the crime of genocide in this country. Their was no oil in Bosnia for the US to have so we never really wanted to get involved. It's the same story in Rwanda. Their is oil in Iraq though.

But back to the more specific topic of the poor serving in the military. Even during the American Revolutionary War the poor were serving as our soldiers. In my unit, I can honestly tell you with full heart, that generally, for the most part, it was people with less opportunity who served in my unit and who joined because they had to find something for a job or something that can provide them with opportunity. And generally, most of the people in my unit did not come from rich backgrounds. They were either poor or lower middle class, with a few middle class folks like myself.

So you think only the rich should have the 'opportunity'? I don't know what happened to you, friend, but you sure as hell have a different outlook than any of the young people in the military that I know personally. People like you should never join the military because you loath it. There will always be a few duds, a few losers, a few misfits, a few 'know nothings', who join any large organization and find out they don't like it. But I am a strong advocate for people--any people, both the advantaged and the less advantaged--having the opportunity to do a job they willingly sign up for and do with pride and enthusiasm. The vast majority of the men and women in our military are just that kind of people. And I won't let people like you even try to take that away from them.

 

[MSgt]

What Einstein made this thread...oh...never mind.

 

[TurtleDude]

I thought we had this discussion before. I don't think you have any regard or value for life. No amount of taxes that you or I pay is enough to compensate for somebody losing their life. No amount of tax dollars can replace that life. Just because you or I pay more in taxes does not entitle you to an exemption from military service. You also mentioned having a fair tax system where everybody pays a same fixed rate for government. Me personally, I have no problems with it. It forces government to be more efficient. Everybody pays the same price for government. I think it is fair. Just because you are more productive working or offer a rare skill set doesn't mean you should pay a higher price for the service of government as somebody who is less productive.

I disagree with your OPINION and reject your premises. Lives are measured in dollars all the time. every day juries around the USA do that: mercenaries do that all the time-so do prize fighters, professional drivers etc

your moronic dismissal of the tax burden in order to claim that military service is the only way to serve is beyond stupid. Does a front line infantry man get to serve less than a field surgeon or a QM supply sargeant? does a guy on an aircraft carrier serve less than a SEAL? How about a JAG officer versus a paratrooper.

Fair has nothing to do with a draft

your understanding of a draft is rather low wattage:roll:

 

[TimmyBoy]

I disagree with your OPINION and reject your premises. Lives are measured in dollars all the time. every day juries around the USA do that: mercenaries do that all the time-so do prize fighters, professional drivers etc

your moronic dismissal of the tax burden in order to claim that military service is the only way to serve is beyond stupid. Does a front line infantry man get to serve less than a field surgeon or a QM supply sargeant? does a guy on an aircraft carrier serve less than a SEAL? How about a JAG officer versus a paratrooper.

Fair has nothing to do with a draft

your understanding of a draft is rather low wattage:roll:

It's not so much about understanding the draft as it is about assuring justice.

 

[MSgt]

On the Draft....

It can be said that once there was a time where the majority of America was proud to serve his country and being drafted meant doing your duty. As the years rolled by and the reasons for war became obscure, people changed.

The Cold War ushered in a whole different mentality. Fighting Soviet Communism proved to be confusing to the mind that was used to fighting an enemy with a central objective location. The idea of fighting a spreading ideology (roll-back) on many different battlefronts was a new form of warfare and people didn’t quite understand it at the time. (Many people still can’t quite grasp the concept.)

As technology advanced, so grew the public’s awareness of the reality of war. The media began to take special interests. By the Vietnam War, the media’s frenzy to report the “best” story became propagandas against any American effort. Patriotism was going through a change. A huge portion of the protester membership was made up of people that did not want to be drafted and of people that returned from being drafted. The attitudes received from draftees ranged from commitment to duty and loyalty to buddy, to troublemaker and unprofessional.

Now, there was a time when our military was built around the ability to fight two wars simultaneously. When that objective conflicted with Washington’s intent to cut defense spending, our objectives were scaled back. They continued to scale the military down over the years to what we have today. Through it all, the ruling class continues to demand more and more from our military. Deployments and re-deployments have been coming so frequently over the decade that Marines barely have enough time to catch a movie stateside before boarding another plane or ship. National Guardsmen and reservists are being used in unprecedented ways and for longer periods of time. With Active military presence in Afghanistan, Iraq, the HOA, the Far East, foreign natural disasters, and now performing natural disaster missions in our own country, their presence helps to masque the shortage of Active Duty personnel. Army and Marine Corps recruiters are unable to meet quotas while High Schools deny them access to graduating seniors. All the while the Air Force and Navy are still scaling back.

A draft in today’s America seems very impossible, and Washington knows it. This is why we have seen Marines with three tours in Iraq just since 2003. (Twice myself) This is why we have tolerated acts of unprofessionalism from our Guardsmen. Despite their larger contributions to duty, there are many, many errors made in Iraq. The most well known was obviously the Abu-Ghraib scandal, thanks to the frenzy of our media to satisfy the anti-war hunger. There is a big difference between an Active Duty military man and a civilian in uniform. That difference is professionalism and a call to duty. As much complaining and mental mistakes that are made in Iraq by our National Guard, I can’t imagine what the protester movement and what the military would look like today, if the draft was activated.

Personally, I do not like the idea of the draft. I have no doubt that America has the resolve to come together to fight against an enemy that is directly assaulting our country, but I do not believe that America has the resolve to help anyone else as it once did. The only solution to the current military status is to either slow us down or give us the strength we once had. In the mean time, unfortunately, the Active military will continue to be ridden until we drop.

 

[TimmyBoy]

What Einstein made this thread...oh...never mind.

Funny you should mention Einstein. I believe he had a quote on military service:

"The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service." -Albert Einstien

Actually here is two quotes from two of my favorite thinkers on education:

"Education is a system of imposed ignorance." -Noam Chomsky

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school" -Albert Einstien

Or his is a better one:

"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." -Albert Einstien

Gee, I need to work on keeping my mouth shut.

 

[TurtleDude]

It's not so much about understanding the draft as it is about assuring justice.

and my concept of justice (as well as most on this thread from what I can see) believes INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE IS UNJUST. I also think your concept of fairness is not well thought through and in any military operation, some will-because of choice or training or aptitude-be exposed to far more risk than others. How does that factor into your stilted concept of fairness?

 

[MSgt]

Funny you should mention Einstein. I believe he had a quote on military service:

"The pioneers of a warless world are the youth who refuse military service." -Albert Einstien

Actually here is two quotes from two of my favorite thinkers on education:

"Education is a system of imposed ignorance." -Noam Chomsky

"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school" -Albert Einstien

Or his is a better one:

"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." -Albert Einstien

Gee, I need to work on keeping my mouth shut.

Yes, you do. It's not hard. You just don't make threads with a rediculous poll.

 

[TurtleDude]

Yes, you do. It's not hard. You just don't make threads with a rediculous poll.

OUCH:mrgreen: That's going to leave a mark:2razz:

 

[TimmyBoy]

On the Draft....

It can be said that once there was a time where the majority of America was proud to serve his country and being drafted meant doing your duty. As the years rolled by and the reasons for war became obscure, people changed.

The Cold War ushered in a whole different mentality. Fighting Soviet Communism proved to be confusing to the mind that was used to fighting an enemy with a central objective location. The idea of fighting a spreading ideology (roll-back) on many different battlefronts was a new form of warfare and people didn’t quite understand it at the time. (Many people still can’t quite grasp the concept.)

As technology advanced, so grew the public’s awareness of the reality of war. The media began to take special interests. By the Vietnam War, the media’s frenzy to report the “best” story became propagandas against any American effort. Patriotism was going through a change. A huge portion of the protester membership was made up of people that did not want to be drafted and of people that returned from being drafted. The attitudes received from draftees ranged from commitment to duty and loyalty to buddy, to troublemaker and unprofessional.

Now, there was a time when our military was built around the ability to fight two wars simultaneously. When that objective conflicted with Washington’s intent to cut defense spending, our objectives were scaled back. They continued to scale the military down over the years to what we have today. Through it all, the ruling class continues to demand more and more from our military. Deployments and re-deployments have been coming so frequently over the decade that Marines barely have enough time to catch a movie stateside before boarding another plane or ship. National Guardsmen and reservists are being used in unprecedented ways and for longer periods of time. With Active military presence in Afghanistan, Iraq, the HOA, the Far East, foreign natural disasters, and now performing natural disaster missions in our own country, their presence helps to masque the shortage of Active Duty personnel. Army and Marine Corps recruiters are unable to meet quotas while High Schools deny them access to graduating seniors. All the while the Air Force and Navy are still scaling back.

A draft in today’s America seems very impossible, and Washington knows it. This is why we have seen Marines with three tours in Iraq just since 2003. (Twice myself) This is why we have tolerated acts of unprofessionalism from our Guardsmen. Despite their larger contributions to duty, there are many, many errors made in Iraq. The most well known was obviously the Abu-Ghraib scandal, thanks to the frenzy of our media to satisfy the anti-war hunger. There is a big difference between an Active Duty military man and a civilian in uniform. That difference is professionalism and a call to duty. As much complaining and mental mistakes that are made in Iraq by our National Guard, I can’t imagine what the protester movement and what the military would look like today, if the draft was activated.

Personally, I do not like the idea of the draft. I have no doubt that America has the resolve to come together to fight against an enemy that is directly assaulting our country, but I do not believe that America has the resolve to help anyone else as it once did. The only solution to the current military status is to either slow us down or give us the strength we once had. In the mean time, unfortunately, the Active military will continue to be ridden until we drop.

Me personally, I would rather live in the America where people accepted being drafted into the military and it was just something everybody did with little complaint. I think America has changed alot and it is not as great as it used to be. Americans do not deserve the freedom their forefathers gave them. To me, the America of history is more worthy of fighting for than today's current America and it has alot to do with people's attitudes today. It's no surprise given that many Americans never had to serve or lay their life on the line for a solid principle. Americans today just want to kick back and take the easy way out of everything.

 

[MSgt]

Me personally, I would rather live in the America where people accepted being drafted into the military and it was just something everybody did with little complaint. I think America has changed alot and it is not as great as it used to be. Americans do not deserve the freedom their forefathers gave them.

I'd rather it be like that too, but what we want doesn't matter. It is what it is. We live in a society that has grown selfish and self centered over the decades. The average American expects the government to hand them everything. The excuse that "I pay taxes" is supposed to carry them through the tough times. Even in retirement, so many Americans are expecting the government to do for what they failed to do in their youth. I believe in more ways than one on your last two sentences. In fact, I've written quite a few commentaries on this.

Anyways...Perhaps a better poll might have been...

1) Completely disband our military.

2) Require all citizens to serve, in one form or another, for at least a period of two years between High School and College.

3) Or leave everything as is.