Completely and Totally Abolish the Military or Institute a Full Military Draft?

[TimmyBoy]

What do you think would happen if we abolished our military?

In your view, what do you think would happen if we abolished our military? Do you think our foreign policy has made us a target along with the way our military was used? I think we need to maintain an army personally, but the only acceptable way for me to do that is to make everybody serve one or two years like they do in places like Israel. Otherwise, I just assume to completely do away with the military.

 

[Kandahar]

By drafting everybody and sending them into a senseless war, they will come back demanding real accountability of our leaders.

What in the world would make you believe that? People of military age are among the least likely to vote, and the military tends to be among the most stauntly pro-administration voting blocs in the country. What evidence do you have to support these claims?

And when you have real accountability of our leaders, they will think twice before sending troops into a senseless war and it will force them to come up with a just foreign policy. This is the sort of thing that happenned in Vietnam when we still had a draft and these career politicans wised up and figuired out it is not in their best personal and private interest to continue the American tradition of a citizen army.

People were mad that we were fighting what they perceived as an unjust war. People were also mad that they (or their family members) were being conscripted in the first place.

With a professional army, it allows our leaders to act with impunity abroad with little accountability at home. It allows our political leaders to use the army for personal, private interests which in the long run creates terrorists that attack ALL Americans. And that is why I say, the rich can only kick back, stay safe for so long before it finally comes back around bites them in the ass like it did on September 11. If you think force alone is going to stop terrorism you are wrong. It will certainly increase and make the problem of terrorism worse though. It will be people like you, along with foreigners who pay for the unjust policies of the US government. The best way for this country to be safe is to base our foreign policy on real justice rather than appeasing, rewarding and acting as accomplices to criminal, foreign leaders who commit genocides and invading countries to make money and steal oil.

Straw man. Stop changing the subject.

So I guess, according to you, since a military draft is unconstitutional, then we would need to completely abolish the military and nobody will serve.

How does that logically follow from my statements at all?

 

[Kandahar]

Since you don't want to serve in the military and put your life on the line, then nobody should serve and put their life on the line. Their should be no military for this country. Hope you enjoy speaking russian, chinese or german.

So if you aren't interested in medicine, it means there should be no doctors in the world. If you aren't interested in teaching others, it means we should ban education. Yeah, that makes sense. :roll:

What does *my* not wanting to serve in the military have to do with anything? There are people who ARE willing to serve, without the government forcing them to.

I know I am not going to be a sucker and fight for a people who are unwilling to fight for themselves or a foreign policy that is unjust or for the personal, private interests of the rich.

That's exactly what you would be doing, since you're advocating your own conscription and would still have little say in the military orders of your superiors.

The citizen army would actually be the best bet for all americans in the long run.

No it wouldn't. Slavery is not the "best bet" for Americans in either the long-run OR the short-run. Furthermore, a draft would decrease the efficiency of the military (by conscripting incompetent people) and lower the morale (by conscripting unwilling people). It would also drastically raise the costs (by having a lot more people on the payroll).

This is a terrible idea on so many levels I can't imagine why anyone would seriously entertain it.

 

[purplehaze]

The draft makes no sense. Even within the military people are given certain jobs based on their ASVAB scores and other qualifications. It would be insane to send everyone off to war no matter what their qualifications and intellect were. If you are a nuclear scientist, lawyer, doctor, or other specialty it would be a waste for you to act as an infantryman in the Armed forces. This would hurt our country much more than help it. To say "this is a military issue not economic" is insane. The economy of America would suffer. If every person, including the most intelligent percentile of Americans, were forced to serve in the military, they would be unable to pursue other venues. How is it wise to keep the best and brightest out of the work force? How can you say this would not affect our economy and businesses?

The volunteer military works, the system is not flawed. I am a middle class citizen, and scored just about as high as possible on the Asvab, as well as passing the dlab. To say that only poor and stupid people serve in the current military, as a last resort, is unfair. A lot of poor do end up enlisting, but that is because there are a lot of opportunities. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the US Armed forces. Only a fraction of those are on the ground in a combat situation as infantry. The military offers decent pay, benefits, a career (only 20 years with retirement), and many other benefits. Why should you assume that just because a lower class citizen signs up, it is because they had no other option? It is a mutually beneficial system and that system is working just fine.

 

[AlbqOwl]

A volunteer military is made up of people who want to be there and those who choose to be there are deserving of all the appreciation, support, and encouragement that the American people can muster. They are in the vein of firemen, police officers, or search and rescue workers who routinely are willing to put their lives on the line on behalf of others.

With an all volunteer military, when my loved one is in harm's way, I can be comforted that those he serves with share the same purpose of mission and selfless commitment as my loved one. I don't have to worry about there being a lot of deadheads, disgruntled, anti-military, let's-get-through-this-and-get-the-hell out types that you will invariably get with a draft even though all draftees do not fit that mold.

Anybody who thinks our U.S. military are the 'dregs of society' have never spent any time on any U.S. military base or with any combat unit. There is going to be a dud or two in any large group, but the U.S. military is made up of 99% young people who are smart, professional, capable, and committed to excellence. We can be very very proud of them.

I say no to a draft. I say yes, let's make sure we have a military that young people want to join voluntarily.

 

[TimmyBoy]

No, no, no, no, you guys are not being honest with me or yourselves. You want to give soldiers a fake smile, send them on their way and tell them "YEAH, WE'RE BEHIND YOU, WAY BEHIND YOU, SUCKER!" That would be honest words coming from you guys. The advice I give to young people whether poor or rich, is to never join the military, never trust the system. I tell them patriotism is a sham and the system will just use you and leave you out to hang and dry. I tell them that their leaders care nothing for them and will lie to them. American leaders only care for themselves. I give them several examples of how they lied to me when I was in the military. I work actively to keep young people out of the military and the grimy paws of our crooked government. You guys know that, and that is precisely the reason you guys don't want to join. This notion of "we can't have a draft because this country is based on individualism" or "I am just glad to have some people who believe in duty" it's all BS and you know it. We have had a draft in the past it was never unconstitutional then. Honor, duty, country all this is BS when the bullets start flying past your head and your ass is getting shot at.

You people just want to kick back, stay safe and only be concerned for the saftey of yourselves and be thankful some other stupid or niave person is taking the bullet your place and sleep well at night knowing this. Why should other people put themselves on the line in a war like this while you guys stay safe? Their is no reason to. I guranatee you, you will never catch me serving in the US military for such an ungrateful, selfish nation. And if somebody dies, OHH ****ING WELL, at least it wasn't you right? And that's how it really is. Better somebody else than you. It's a me world, stabb each other in the back and be unconcerned for others. It is after all the American way and it is also one of the many reasons why we are disliked by the rest of the world. We need to face it, since their is no way for to fairly distribute military service, it's just better to do away and abolish the military altogether. Nobody should serve in the military. Heck, it would probably save the American people alot of trouble. No expensive military to pay for and no need for poor folks to go off to die to make rich folks more money. And no need to worry about terrorists coming back seeking to avenge the deaths of their innocent civilians at the hands of our military on American civilians. Everybody wins. It's a win win situation. The military is not about honor, duty, country. It's about organized murder. That's the only purpose it serves. It's not their to provide opportunites and job training, heck their is plenty of opportunties without the military. The only fair and just way to resolve this problem is that the military is completely and totally done away with or everybody does their fair share of military service no matter what background they come from. Israel has an excellent model and they have a capitalist economic system. I see no reason why the US can't do the same thing and model itself after Israel.

 

[MrFungus420]

Either full draft or no military.

I'm assuming that an idiot restricted it to just those two choices.

A draft is a form of involuntary solitude, and, as such, is forbidden by the constitution.

Advocating having no military is an absolutely untenable position.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I admit, I don't have much faith in American society. America acting as accomplices to genocide in Bosnia. America, ignoring genocide in Rwanda. America invading Iraq for oil. Americans never giving a damn about anybody else. I don't think the American people deserve what little freedoms they have nor do they deserve any sort of respect considering the behavior of American people and the foreign policy of this country. I am american myself, but you know, somebody has to do the task and just telling it like really is. Somebody has got to tell the cold hard truth of the situation.

 

[TimmyBoy]

Either full draft or no military.

I'm assuming that an idiot restricted it to just those two choices.

A draft is a form of involuntary solitude, and, as such, is forbidden by the constitution.

Advocating having no military is an absolutely untenable position.

I don't see how Israel's model of a military draft is an untenable postion. I think it would be a good alternative that is fair for everybody.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I am assuming that people would want this system of military service to be fair, correct?

 

[purplehaze]

Timmyboy
You guys know that, and that is precisely the reason you guys don't want to join.

You people just want to kick back, stay safe and only be concerned for the saftey of yourselves and be thankful some other stupid or niave person is taking the bullet your place and sleep well at night knowing this. Why should other people put themselves on the line in a war like this while you guys stay safe? Their is no reason to. I guranatee you, you will never catch me serving in the US military for such an ungrateful, selfish nation. And if somebody dies, OHH ****ING WELL, at least it wasn't you right?

I signed up because I chose to. I wasn't misled or lied to despite what you may think or try to convince other young people of. And I am in no way stupid or signed up as a last resort as you seem to think everyone is doing. I scored in the top 90% on the asvab and passed the Dlab. You sound like a very disgruntled person. I am sorry if your experience was a bad one, but it seems to me you are letting that cloud your judgment on this issue.

If you ask the majority of veterans they will tell you they are proud of what they accomplished. They chose to serve their country and would do so again. You are taking a small fraction of the people who serve, and saying that they portray the majority of our armed forces. For every one person who joined as a last resort, because they couldn't get another job in their community, you will find 100 that joined because they chose to do so.

You are welcome to your opinion. It's a shame that you are so bitter and mistrusting of the volunteer system. However I think it’s pretty clear that you are in the minority. Most people, past and present serviceman, do not regret their decision. I would also submit that they do not feel they were tricked or manipulated into joining, they are proud. The effects of having a draft would create a whole host of new problems for our nation. It is just not a reasonable thing to institute at this time. Not wanting a draft does not make someone a coward, it makes them reasonable. I would not want someone serving next to me that did not choose to be there. No one, regardless of race or class, should be forced into joining the armed forces. The volunteer system makes sure this does not happen, and it is working.

 

[AlbqOwl]

I don't see how Israel's model of a military draft is an untenable postion. I think it would be a good alternative that is fair for everybody.

Has it not occurred to you that the nation of Israel is smaller in land size and population than the average U.S. urban county? Further, most of Israel's immediate neighbors would like to see it disappear from the earth, and, at such time as they thought they could do that with impunity, would see that it happened. This is a tiny country that is the focus of terrorist attacks on a routine basis. This is very different from the situation we have in the United States.

While I certainly support an all-volunteer military, I would favor routine ROTC training, etc. in highschools and college, again on a volunteer basis, that would shorten training time and increase our readiness in time of emergency. I think many if not most young people would participate if such was offered and presented in an attractive way.

As it is, you have rabid liberal faculties and leftwingnuts all over the place trying to shut down ROTC groups and trying to prevent military recruiters from coming onto public highschool and college campuses.

And still all those wonderful young people still sign up to serve and are willing to put their lives on the line for the rest of us.

I don't understand how any American cannot see that this is a wonderful thing.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Does the word "target" mean any thing to you?

Yes, it does...

So anyway...

What do you think would happen if we abolished our military? What would happen?

 

[AlbqOwl]

Yes, it does...

So anyway...

What do you think would happen if we abolished our military? What would happen?

It wouldn't be immediate, but it would be inevitable that China would invade and take Taiwan. North Korea would attempt to reclaim South Korea. North Vietnam would attempt to reclaim South Vietnam. Israel would be gone within the year. The fledgling democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan would collapse within weeks. European nations and Japan that have been able to maintain marginal armies for decades now would be instituting a draft and rebuilding their forces. Elsewhere, opportunistic types would be planning conquests to increase their holdings, prestige, and power.

The U.S. may not have intended it to be so, but the rest of the world knows we are not interested in increasing our holdings, but we are interested in democratic trading partners not given to world conquest. They know our army is as good as their army if they are attacked. Take the U.S. military out of the equation, and chaos results with huge implications for the world economy and increased human suffering. U.S. citizens would have to defend themselves against invaders.

I think I would like to keep our military, thank you very much.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

It wouldn't be immediate, but it would be inevitable that China would invade and take Taiwan. North Korea would attempt to reclaim South Korea. North Vietnam would attempt to reclaim South Vietnam. Israel would be gone within the year. The fledgling democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan would collapse within weeks. European nations and Japan that have been able to maintain marginal armies for decades now would be instituting a draft and rebuilding their forces. Elsewhere, opportunistic types would be planning conquests to increase their holdings, prestige, and power.

The U.S. may not have intended it to be so, but the rest of the world knows we are not interested in increasing our holdings, but we are interested in democratic trading partners not given to world conquest. They know our army is as good as their army if they are attacked. Take the U.S. military out of the equation, and chaos results with huge implications for the world economy and increased human suffering. U.S. citizens would have to defend themselves against invaders.

I think I would like to keep our military, thank you very much.

I never suggested otherwise. I was merely curious as to what he thought the implications would be. You had a very intelligent response. Thank you.

 

[AlbqOwl]

I never suggested otherwise. I was merely curious as to what he thought the implications would be. You had a very intelligent response. Thank you.

I never thought you thought otherwise. :smile: You're welcome and thank you.

 

[TurtleDude]

I admit, I don't have much faith in American society. America acting as accomplices to genocide in Bosnia. America, ignoring genocide in Rwanda. America invading Iraq for oil. Americans never giving a damn about anybody else. I don't think the American people deserve what little freedoms they have nor do they deserve any sort of respect considering the behavior of American people and the foreign policy of this country. I am american myself, but you know, somebody has to do the task and just telling it like really is. Somebody has got to tell the cold hard truth of the situation.

psychobabble. this sort of self-loathing is beyond nonsense. America gives more money and has shed more of its own blood for others than any nation in history.

You still haven't addressed my main point-a draft has no use other than military readiness and most professionals dispute it helps that.

your nefarious desires to punish the rich or impose some sort of socialist equality is pathetic:roll:

 

[Kandahar]

No, no, no, no, you guys are not being honest with me or yourselves. You want to give soldiers a fake smile, send them on their way and tell them "YEAH, WE'RE BEHIND YOU, WAY BEHIND YOU, SUCKER!" That would be honest words coming from you guys.

Right, because anyone who's against SLAVERY must be a right-wing neocon who is hell-bent on sending the military everywhere in the world. :spin:

We have had a draft in the past it was never unconstitutional then.

Actually, it was and always has been unconstitutional (at least since the 13th amendment). But no one did anything about it before.

You people just want to kick back, stay safe and only be concerned for the saftey of yourselves and be thankful some other stupid or niave person is taking the bullet your place and sleep well at night knowing this.

No, asshole, I want to withdraw our military from everywhere in the world that they aren't needed or wanted. That isn't the same as FORCING American citizens into slavery out of an interest of "service to our country," which you seem to agree is ridiculous so it boggles my mind why you're advocating a draft.

Why should other people put themselves on the line in a war like this while you guys stay safe? Their is no reason to. I guranatee you, you will never catch me serving in the US military for such an ungrateful, selfish nation.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD BE DOING IN A MILITARY DRAFT, IDIOT.

We need to face it, since their is no way for to fairly distribute military service, it's just better to do away and abolish the military altogether. Nobody should serve in the military. Heck, it would probably save the American people alot of trouble. No expensive military to pay for and no need for poor folks to go off to die to make rich folks more money. And no need to worry about terrorists coming back seeking to avenge the deaths of their innocent civilians at the hands of our military on American civilians. Everybody wins. It's a win win situation.

So you've gone from advocating forced conscription to create a giant military, to advocating the complete disbanding of the military, all in a single post.

Maybe when you figure out what you ACTUALLY believe, instead of being a troll, you can debate with the big kids.

Israel has an excellent model and they have a capitalist economic system. I see no reason why the US can't do the same thing and model itself after Israel.

So now we're back to forced conscription, instead of the disbanding of the military...

If your main purpose is to "demand accountability" from the government, a simple look at Israel's foreign policy would suggest that forced conscription doesn't prevent a democratic government from taking a very hard-line foreign policy.

 

[JOHNYJ]

NATIONAL SERVICE ! as the gap between rich asnd poor gets bigger and bigger in America.Something must be done to slow it down and National service is a first step.Either the armed forces or work on an Indian reservation or poor area.
And very few exceptions ! not even politicians children get exempted.
A completly volounteer armed forces is not in the interests of democracy.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I am a believer in captialism. It's just that I have a major problem with poor folks getting killed while rich folks kick back, stay safe, make more money and enjoy the good life, while those with lesser opportunities go in, go overseas, get shot up or come back with no limbs. Like, a response to a veteran that made me angry was "Just let the government take care of him." As if he was a nobody.

 

[Kandahar]

I am a believer in captialism. It's just that I have a major problem with poor folks getting killed while rich folks kick back, stay safe, make more money and enjoy the good life, while those with lesser opportunities go in, go overseas, get shot up or come back with no limbs. Like, a response to a veteran that made me angry was "Just let the government take care of him." As if he was a nobody.

The answer isn't to enslave the entire country, nor is it to have no military at all. The people in the military understand what their job is, and they understand what their pay/benefits will be. They CHOOSE to take that job. For someone who claims to believe in capitalism, how can you claim to know what's better for the soldiers and would-be soldiers than they themselves do? If you don't want to risk having to "go overseas, get shot up, or come back with no limbs" then don't join the military. No, that doesn't mean our government has the right to send them into any meaningless conflict it wants to...but it also certainly doesn't merit involuntary servitude.

Your class warfare rhetoric isn't fooling anyone. You don't care about the poor, you just want to establish involuntary servitude since YOU know what is best for everyone. This is more than a little odd, since you've admitted that "you will never catch me serving in the US military for such an ungrateful, selfish nation."

I guess conscription is OK when it comes to The Big Bad Rich Folks, but you're a special exception. :roll:

 

[TurtleDude]

I am a believer in captialism. It's just that I have a major problem with poor folks getting killed while rich folks kick back, stay safe, make more money and enjoy the good life, while those with lesser opportunities go in, go overseas, get shot up or come back with no limbs. Like, a response to a veteran that made me angry was "Just let the government take care of him." As if he was a nobody.

More horse droppings. Those who sign up for the special forces, as pilots, as Marine Recon aren't normally the poor. Rather its the cream of the crop who get to be rangers, fighter pilots, marine recon, Navy Seals, Green Beret etc. Those people usually come from the sort of environment that produces smart able people-people who have far more options than merely being in the military. The poor who go into the military are often there as a trade school-they aren't there for AIT, Delta Force etc. I have known 6 SEALS and a couple dozen rangers including my nephew, All had 130+ IQ's and were middle class or higher.

One of the great myths is that blacks and other members of the alleged "underclass" suffer more KIA's than whites. More nonsense-whites tend to be in the most dangerous jobs-in Nam that was chopper pilots/door gunners, infantry platoon leaders, and pilots.

 

[TimmyBoy]

More horse droppings. Those who sign up for the special forces, as pilots, as Marine Recon aren't normally the poor. Rather its the cream of the crop who get to be rangers, fighter pilots, marine recon, Navy Seals, Green Beret etc. Those people usually come from the sort of environment that produces smart able people-people who have far more options than merely being in the military. The poor who go into the military are often there as a trade school-they aren't there for AIT, Delta Force etc. I have known 6 SEALS and a couple dozen rangers including my nephew, All had 130+ IQ's and were middle class or higher.

One of the great myths is that blacks and other members of the alleged "underclass" suffer more KIA's than whites. More nonsense-whites tend to be in the most dangerous jobs-in Nam that was chopper pilots/door gunners, infantry platoon leaders, and pilots.

That's not necessarily true. My uncle was a Navy SEAL and I myself served in a combat unit. I could show you pictures and would love to give you the name of my uncle so that you may confirm and know for sure that I am telling you the truth. But I am not so sure that my uncle would appreciate it. My experience in the military, and I have served in a combat unit, generally speaking most of them were not that well educated and came to the military as a last resort. My uncle's point of view is similar to my own. He made it being a SEAL and he served his full active duty time as a Navy SEAL and he says if he had to do it over again he wouldn't do it. He also shares my views on how politicans are nothing more than crooks. He told me some war stories surrounding that while he was a SEAL.

 

[TimmyBoy]

The point I am trying to make, is that capitalism is the only practical economic system, but that the risk of death in combat needs to spread more fairly. I think this is one of the injustices of capitalism. At least in Israel, if you are a citizen, no matter how rich or poor you are, you pull your fair share of the weight or you get the hell out. Nobody is going to carry your weight for you. That's not how it works here in the US.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's not necessarily true. My uncle was a Navy SEAL and I myself served in a combat unit. I could show you pictures and would love to give you the name of my uncle so that you may confirm and know for sure that I am telling you the truth. But I am not so sure that my uncle would appreciate it. My experience in the military, and I have served in a combat unit, generally speaking most of them were not that well educated and came to the military as a last resort. My uncle's point of view is similar to my own. He made it being a SEAL and he served his full active duty time as a Navy SEAL and he says if he had to do it over again he wouldn't do it. He also shares my views on how politicans are nothing more than crooks. He told me some war stories surrounding that while he was a SEAL.

I have no reason to disbelieve your claim about your uncle-just do the research-the backgrounds of those in the elite branches of the service-the one's who are most likely to be on the cutting edge of military ops are GENERALLY well educated with well above average intelligence. People who grow up in poverty and broken homes rarely have the skills and tools needed to make the rigorous selection tests that the elite units use to pick their elite