Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus stop b

[ecofarm]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Unless he stole it, he did. I don't recall that the Second Amendment contains any language that would indicate that it did not apply in this situation.

Knife on school bus is definately not legal. I suppose once he left he bus he was legal with under 4".

SYG is very clear: One is legal to use lethal force against a forcible felony (against oneself or another) as long as any weapon used is legal for the person at the time and place.

 

[the_recruit]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

The judge ruled that the kid was justified. Based on the decision of the court, and barring any conflicting info, there's apparently nothing excessive about the way the kid defended himself.

But what we're basically arguing here is whether the judge made the right ruling. You can't use the assumption that the Judge made the right ruling in your argument to show that the judge made the right ruling. That's circular logic. Here's your argument as I see it:

1) The Judge made the right ruling
2) Therefore, 12 stabs were justified self defense
3) Therefore, the kid isn't guilty of murder
4) Thefefore, the Judge made the right ruling.

Given the very few details that we have of the incident, I disagree with the judge's ruling. Were I to be privy to all the information that the Judge was, I think it's certainly probable that I would change my mind. But I'm not, none of us are, so I have to go on the limited information available to form an opinion on the ruling.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Better way of dealing with a bully than killing yourself. In the end, it's a bit odd that there are no charges at all because the kid did kill another person. While it could be that he was justified in the killing, I think that's something for a jury to decide.

I'm comfortable with a judge deciding he was justified without going to a jury trial-- a trial is a lot of money and most self-defense cases are pretty much open and shut. Mine never went to trial, either.

 

[theangryamerican]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

But what we're basically arguing here is whether the judge made the right ruling. You can't use the assumption that the Judge made the right ruling in your argument to show that the judge made the right ruling. That's circular logic. Here's your argument as I see it:

1) The Judge made the right ruling
2) Therefore, 12 stabs were justified self defense
3) Therefore, the kid isn't guilty of murder
4) Thefefore, the Judge made the right ruling.

Given the very few details that we have of the incident, I disagree with the judge's ruling. Were I to be privy to all the information that the Judge was, I think it's certainly probable that I would change my mind. But I'm not, none of us are, so I have to go on the limited information available to form an opinion on the ruling.

Actually, that's not was I was arguing. We were clearly discussing whether or not the kid's use of force was justified, not whether the judge was right or wrong. Hence, my argument would be more accurately sumarized by saying that we know that the kid was outnumbered and facing a threat that was physically larger than he was. We know that he tried to retreat from the conflict before defending himself. We know that the judge was likely presented with more evidence than we have been. I've also stated that twelve knife wounds does not mean that the victim intentionally plunged the knife into his attacker twelve separate times. Based on what we've been provided, I'm arguing that I don't see anything here other a legitimate, justifiable self-defense.

 

[Wessexman]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus stop bullying » Naples Daily News



You expect the family members of the dead student to react this way.

However:



The kid tried to avoid the confrontation by getting off the bus early. The bully followed, with several friends, getting off the bus early with the purpose of fighting someone younger and smaller. At this point, the kid has made significant effort to avoid the confrontation and even tried to get away once during the fight.

There's been a lot of people split on this decision. Some people are saying the kid got away with murder, others saying he acted in self-defense. To me, it seems to clearly be self-defense. The bully learned the hard way that sometimes when you start a fight, you lose.

In Britain or Australia he would certainly have been charged, though it may would have been manslaughter or something like that. There are strict laws against carrying knives as well, even for self-defence and that would have worked against him as well.

I'm not sure if all that is correct. On the one hand it is self-defence, but the question has to asked whether in a schoolyard -esque sort of fight such self-defence is justified. I obviously don't know all the details though.

 

[jamesrage]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus stop bullying » Naples Daily News



You expect the family members of the dead student to react this way.

However:



The kid tried to avoid the confrontation by getting off the bus early. The bully followed, with several friends, getting off the bus early with the purpose of fighting someone younger and smaller. At this point, the kid has made significant effort to avoid the confrontation and even tried to get away once during the fight.

There's been a lot of people split on this decision. Some people are saying the kid got away with murder, others saying he acted in self-defense. To me, it seems to clearly be self-defense. The bully learned the hard way that sometimes when you start a fight, you lose.

As far as I am concerned he was well within his right to use lethal force to defend himself from being assaulted. I could care less if he felt it necessary to stab his attacker ounce or multiple times to stop his attacker.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

In the end, it's a bit odd that there are no charges at all because the kid did kill another person. While it could be that he was justified in the killing, I think that's something for a jury to decide.

Why should a prosecution need to take place? The law is clear: the kid had no duty to retreat and defended himself. If these are the facts of the case, the kid committed no crime and is not guilty of murder or manslaughter as a matter of law. Since there's not enough evidence to pursue a trial, why start one?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

In Britain or Australia he would certainly have been charged, though it may would have been manslaughter or something like that. There are strict laws against carrying knives as well, even for self-defence and that would have worked against him as well.

Yes. There's a very good reason why we kicked them out of our country two centuries ago.

 

[Wessexman]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Yes. There's a very good reason why we kicked them out of our country two centuries ago.

What this incident brings up is something I'm uncertain of; where is the line between self-defence that include the right to kill for it and which doesn't. Surely if someone hits you you can't just start stabbing, neither would we say all play ground fights entitle the attacked to kill the attacker. Somewhere there is a line, I'm not sure where it is though.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

What this incident brings up is something I'm uncertain of; where is the line between self-defence that include the right to kill for it and which doesn't. Surely if someone hits you you can't just start stabbing, neither would we say all play ground fights entitle the attacked to kill the attacker. Somewhere there is a line, I'm not sure where it is though.

It's a "soft line," I think. Depends upon individual circumstances. If someone pushed a football player to the ground and kept coming and the football player picked up a crowbar and hit them four or five times with it, he'd undoubtedly be guilty of something. If an 80-year-old did the same thing the football player did, he'd probably be let off. Here's a definition of "legal self-defense" I found. Personally, I think it's too simplistic, but there it is:

Self-defense is the right to use reasonable force to protect oneself or members of the family from bodily harm, or to a lesser extent, one's property, from the attack of an aggressor, if the defender has reason to believe he/she/they is/are in danger. Self-defense is a defense to a criminal charge or to tort liability. To establish the defense, the person must be free from fault or provocation, must have no means of escape or retreat, and there must be an impending peril.

The force used in self-defense may be sufficient for protection from apparent harm (not just an empty verbal threat) or to halt any danger from attack, but cannot be an excuse to prolong the attack or use excessive force. Self-defense cannot include killing or great bodily harm to defend property, unless personal danger is also involved.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

The bully got what he asked for. When you attempt to hurt others, be prepared to be hurt yourself.

 

[Mason66]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Knife on school bus is definately not legal. I suppose once he left he bus he was legal with under 4".

SYG is very clear: One is legal to use lethal force against a forcible felony (against oneself or another) as long as any weapon used is legal for the person at the time and place.

Is a school bus a protected area legally? I have never heard of that. I only saw in the article where it said bus but not specifically school bus.

 

[Mason66]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

In Britain or Australia he would certainly have been charged, though it may would have been manslaughter or something like that. There are strict laws against carrying knives as well, even for self-defence and that would have worked against him as well.

I'm not sure if all that is correct. On the one hand it is self-defence, but the question has to asked whether in a schoolyard -esque sort of fight such self-defence is justified. I obviously don't know all the details though.

It was not a schoolyard-esque sort of fight, it was a vicious assault when the bigger kid punched the smaller kid in the back of the head. The kid felt he was in danger not only with the bigger kid in front of him but with the crowd around him, so I do not have any problem with his actions.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Here's a definition of "legal self-defense" I found. Personally, I think it's too simplistic, but there it is:

SYG law supersedes that and is as I stipulated above.

 

[the_recruit]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Actually, that's not was I was arguing. We were clearly discussing whether or not the kid's use of force was justified, not whether the judge was right or wrong. Hence, my argument would be more accurately sumarized by saying that we know that the kid was outnumbered and facing a threat that was physically larger than he was. We know that he tried to retreat from the conflict before defending himself. We know that the judge was likely presented with more evidence than we have been. I've also stated that twelve knife wounds does not mean that the victim intentionally plunged the knife into his attacker twelve separate times. Based on what we've been provided, I'm arguing that I don't see anything here other a legitimate, justifiable self-defense.

sounds reasonable to me

 

[RadicalModerate]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

What a surprise; the kid who was stabbed's family calls it "getting away with murder". Reminds me off the time we were robbed, one of the robbers was shot under Castle law and that family hassled us through the court proceedings, even tried to assault us outside. I wonder if they are related somehow...

'Tards having 'tard kids who do 'tard things and then act like 'tards when they are forced to deal with the consequences.

Hey, bully's family, how about a big "hey, we're sorry our dead son harassed you and brought you stabbing him upon himself. It must be tough for you, and we're sorry he made this happen." No? Wow, what a shocker.

 

[joko104]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

There's not enough info. But it appears self defense. Just because the other kid was not armed did not make the other kid a deadly threat. There was a case a few years ago in which one kid attacked another kid and beat up him knocking him down - and then slowly gouged out both the defenseless kid's eyes with his fingers permanently blinding him. A teenager could easily kick or stomp the other kid to death after knocking him down.

That the first kid got off the bus early to try to get away and then otherwise tried to flee, meant there is no question he had no option left but defense.

"12 stab wounds" by themselves mean nothing as that could mean 12 slash wounds. Knives generally don't quickly stop a person and why I recommend against them for self defense. Rather, the person bleeds down.

Finally, it is irrelevant if having the knife was legal. If a person uses deadly force it is irrelevant whether having the gun, knife etc is illegal. That is a different legal question and different potential crime. The only relevancy the legality of the knife was is that it my should intentions. It is likely that it is a criminal offense for anyone to bring a knife to school or on a school bus. But that is not directly relevant to the question of self defense.

 

[joko104]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

What a surprise; the kid who was stabbed's family calls it "getting away with murder". Reminds me off the time we were robbed, one of the robbers was shot under Castle law and that family hassled us through the court proceedings, even tried to assault us outside. I wonder if they are related somehow...

'Tards having 'tard kids who do 'tard things and then act like 'tards when they are forced to deal with the consequences.

Hey, bully's family, how about a big "hey, we're sorry our dead son harassed you and brought you stabbing him upon himself. It must be tough for you, and we're sorry he made this happen." No? Wow, what a shocker.

The kid should sue that family for slander. It is per se slander claiming it was "murder" and the presumption at trial therefore would be for the kid.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

There's not enough info. But it appears self defense. Just because the other kid was not armed did not make the other kid a deadly threat.

Stand Your Ground Law requires only that the threat be a forcible felony, not deadly.

 

[Jerry]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

I agree with you for the most part...but jeez...12 stab wounds indicates that at some point this kid decided he was justified in killing.

Or just scared for his life.

The thing about a stab wound, and many gunshot wounds, is it doesn't put you down on the first hit. A critical stab wound can bleed internally, yet leave the person still fully able to fight for several minutes.

When lethal force is used to stop an attack, if the attack doesn't immediately stop with the first hit, additional hits are applied until the attack stops.

 

[ecofarm]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Finally, it is irrelevant if having the knife was legal.

The knife being legal carry is relevant to SYG law. A weapon used to execute lethal force MUST be legal at the time and place. This leads me to believe that the controversy is either:

A. Transit is not material in establishing the legality of time and place.
or
B. Transit was legal.

This apparently being a question if transit was a school bus.



What thread are you in?

http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-a...tabbing-death-defense-teens-bus-stop-b-2.html

 

[RadicalModerate]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Just because the other kid was not armed did not make the other kid a deadly threat. There was a case a few years ago in which one kid attacked another kid and beat up him knocking him down - and then slowly gouged out both the defenseless kid's eyes with his fingers permanently blinding him. A teenager could easily kick or stomp the other kid to death after knocking him down.

Not to mention cases where one punch can accidentally kill someone. No one should have to wait till they are being hit to exercise force to defend oneself. Threats, harassment, intimidation and being followed by threatening people...any legitimate threat that one cannot escape from should be grounds for self defense with no quarter given.

 

[Gardener]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Do people here really think that a cornered kid being attacked by a piece of filth to the point he has no choice but to fight back for his life is so coldly rational during the process that he takes time to estimate how many times he needs to stab the filth in order to get the thing to stop?

hasn't anybody ever heard of adreneline?

Heck, if he had gone after some of the filth's goon squad and stabbed them a time or two as well, I'd say he would have been justified. Sometimes enough is enough.

 

[DiAnna]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

Sounds like self-defense to me on the surface, and if a judge in possession of all the facts thought so too, that's good enough for me. As for the 12 stab wounds, someone using a small pocket knife and fearing for his life could easily stab 12 times in 12 seconds. The kid probably just kept stabbing until the bully either fell down or stumbled backwards far enough that he could get away.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for an older, bigger kid surrounded by his homies who pretty much got what he deserved. I'd rather he'd not died, but it is what it is. :shrug:

 

[Temporal]

Re: Collier judge upholds 'Stand Your Ground' stabbing death defense in teen's bus st

The fact that he got off the bus early to get away from these people shows that he did everything he could to avoid confrontation. Bullies with an agenda need to learn a lesson, it's just a shame that the bully in this case learned with his life.

A gang of people coming to get you does not inspire rational responses. It's fight or flight. Just remember that there are two victims here, and having killed someone is something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.