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Christians in Indonesia defy police, past attacks

ludahai

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JAKARTA, Indonesia – A group of Christian worshippers said they would defy police and the threat of attack to hold Sunday prayers outside their now-boarded-up church near Indonesia's capital.

Religious tensions that had been growing for months in the industrial city of Bekasi came to a head last week when unidentified assailants stabbed a member of the Batak Christian Church in the stomach and hit its preacher on the head with a wooden plank. Neither injury was life-threatening.

Bekasi Police Chief Col. Imam Sugianto warned them against returning Sunday, saying "if they don't listen, we will take them ourselves to a temporary place for worship offered by the government."

And Muslims insist on tolerance... yeah, right...

It is apalling that the police chief would warn these people against exercising their basic rights under the Indonesian Constitution. The police should be going after the extremists, NOT the Christians...

Pathetic...
 

Your Star

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I agree, it's a crime against humanity, and this should not be tolerated by the international community. It's sickening what is happening here, and I thank God that I live in America everytime I hear about this kind of thing.

Though, let us not become what they are, let us be tolerant, and peaceful to every religion, and let everyone worship whatever they want without fear of this kind of persecution.
 
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apdst

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I agree, it's a crime against humanity, and this should not be tolerated by the international community. It's sickening what is happening here, and I thank God that I live in America everytime I hear about this kind of thing.

Though, let us not become what they are, let us be tolerant, and peaceful to every religion, and let everyone worship whatever they want without fear of this kind of persecution.

Until an American citizen pisses off the Muslims, then that's a different story
 

Laila

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The Islamic Defender's Front pressured local authorities early this year to shutter the Batak church, arguing the permit was granted without the required approval of residents.

So the Church was illegally built? :confused:
 

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So the Church was illegally built? :confused:

Police arrested 10 suspects including the local leader of the hard-line Islamic Defender's Front, which has for months warned the Christians against holding prayers in the staunchly Muslim neighborhood.

Hard to interpret. Apparently, Christians cannot build a church in Indonesia without the approval of the local Muslim majority.
 

ludahai

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Hard to interpret. Apparently, Christians cannot build a church in Indonesia without the approval of the local Muslim majority.

Not true and never has been. Indonesia has five officially recognized religions and all legally have the freedom to worship and build houses of worship anywhere in the country. This has never before been a problem in Java, even in Jogjakarta, which is the center of Islamic learning on the island (the home of the Indonesia Islamic University).
 

Tashah

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Not true and never has been. Indonesia has five officially recognized religions and all legally have the freedom to worship and build houses of worship anywhere in the country. This has never before been a problem in Java, even in Jogjakarta, which is the center of Islamic learning on the island (the home of the Indonesia Islamic University).
That's why I said it's hard to interpret. The article isn't composed very clearly, but the impression I get is that residents must approve a permit for such a thing...

The Islamic Defender's Front pressured local authorities early this year to shutter the Batak church, arguing the permit was granted without the required approval of residents.
 

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INDONESIA Jakarta to review laws on religious freedom to guarantee Christian rights - Asia News

~snip

Jakarta (AsiaNews) – Indonesian authorities will review the laws that regulate freedom of religion in the country. They will especially vet a controversial joint ministerial decree (nº8 of 2006 and nº9 of 2009), Senior Minister for Legal, Political and Security Affairs Djoko Suyanto said at the end of day marked by street protests and a torchlight procession against recent anti-Christian violence.

“The existing decree will be revised,” Djoko Suyanto said. In its existing form, it delegates the power to issue building permits for places of worship to individual regencies (districts). This has led to discrimination towards Christians who face increasing difficulties when they apply because the law is enforced by local authorities, often controlled by Muslim extremists. Muslims, on the other hand, do not face such problems.

The debate over religious freedom in Indonesia was revived by recent episodes of anti-Christian violence. Last Monday, unknown assailants stabbed Rev Afian Sihombing, a Protestant clergyman who heads a Protestant community in East Pondonk Bekasi Regency. He was attacked along with Rev Luspida Simanjutak, head of the Huria Batak Kristen Protestan (HKBP). She too was injured, to the face, the head and the back.

Yesterday, hundreds of human rights activists took part in a torchlight procession, spontaneously joined by thousands of people.

Inavah Wahid, daughter of the late President Abdurrahman Wahid, said, “We are all one nation and we strongly and endlessly struggle for the unity of the nation.” Now, events show that the “situation is getting worse” and that “the state appears to be powerless and unable to perform its duties.”

In order to defuse tensions that are mounting in some sectors of civil society, West Java Governor Ahmad Heryawan told HKBP members that they would have a “permanent” place to worship.

Bekasi Mayor Mochtar Muhammad said that city hall would provide them with two possible venues for their Church: a 2.500 m2 lot owned by the city administration or a 2,000 m2 lot owned by a private company that the city would buy for the Church. This way, according to the mayor, “security would be guaranteed.”

:applaud
 

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Muslims can't seem to get themselves off this bedrock of close minded xenophobia because they do not have the will to say to their leaders, "Excuse me, Mr. Imam? I think you're ****ing wrong."

Thats Islam's biggest problem. The unwillingness of its scholars, its leaders, to acknowledge that their understanding of Islam is flawed. And that the Qur'an, really, is a product of an old and violent arab culture that cannot necessarily be applied so literally in the modern world. Modern Islam is oppressive not only to those they consider infidels, but also to muslims that do not share their believes. There are major cases of persecution against islamic sects that do not conform to the Sunni interpretation of Islam in Indonesia.
 

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Indonesia used to be a beacon of tolerance in the Islamic world... not anymore...

Was it? News to me.
I thought it was Morocco's :shrug:
 

soccerboy22

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Was it? News to me.
I thought it was Morocco's :shrug:

It may not be the only beacon, but Indonesia, especially in Asia, was seen as a beacon for religious tolerance. It is sad to see that this has changes and people in Indonesia have lost this.
 

ric27

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Which brings us to the question ijtihad....Ideally speaking, Ijtihad itself means making laws by interpretation. This is why there is a history of islamic tolerance and openness back before the 10th century. There were experts back then whose task was read the qur'an and the records of hadith in order to update their interpretation of islamic laws (sharia) and adapt it to changing times.

All these died in the 10th Century, with the rise of Caliph Al-Ghazali. He killed off ijtihad, believing that the qur'an and hadith should be interpreted - and applied - literally.
Ghazali went so far as to declare individual interpretation of faith - as was and still is done by the Sufis (the mystics) - to be heretical.
 

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Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.
 

ludahai

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Muslims can't seem to get themselves off this bedrock of close minded xenophobia because they do not have the will to say to their leaders, "Excuse me, Mr. Imam? I think you're ****ing wrong."

Thats Islam's biggest problem. The unwillingness of its scholars, its leaders, to acknowledge that their understanding of Islam is flawed. And that the Qur'an, really, is a product of an old and violent arab culture that cannot necessarily be applied so literally in the modern world. Modern Islam is oppressive not only to those they consider infidels, but also to muslims that do not share their believes. There are major cases of persecution against islamic sects that do not conform to the Sunni interpretation of Islam in Indonesia.

Exactly. Indonesia has long been a special case in the Islamic world due to the wealth of religions and philosophies that predated the arrival of Islam in the area AND the fact that the arrival of Islam was generally peaceful. This has led Indonesians to be generally tolerant, and MOST still are. It is just the extremists who are getting bolder and bolder because the current president is beholden to Islamist groups and is not cracking down and following the Indonesian constitution. He should be impeached but THAT will never happen. Many of my Christian Indonesian friends have left the country in recent years due to recent persecution.
 

ludahai

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Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.

Christians have been living in Indonesia for hundreds of years in peace with their neighbors. The Buddhists and Hindu communities there PREDATE the arrival of Islam about five centuries ago (for most of the archipelago, it arrived earlier further west).

It isn't a matter of Christians moving to Indonesia and choosing to live there. There have been communities of Christians there for centuries.
 

ric27

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Exactly. Indonesia has long been a special case in the Islamic world due to the wealth of religions and philosophies that predated the arrival of Islam in the area AND the fact that the arrival of Islam was generally peaceful. This has led Indonesians to be generally tolerant, and MOST still are. It is just the extremists who are getting bolder and bolder because the current president is beholden to Islamist groups and is not cracking down and following the Indonesian constitution. He should be impeached but THAT will never happen. Many of my Christian Indonesian friends have left the country in recent years due to recent persecution.

I believe religion is a great social agreement where faith acts as guidelines of human conduct. In that case, religion must be willing to adapt to the times, like I mentioned in many other thread/forums, back in the days razing whole villages to the ground, selling off its inhabitants to slavery, engaging in rapine and plunder were common practices in warfare. The Romans did it, the Greeks did it, the Chinese did it, the Japanese did it...everyone did. But such practices are unacceptable in our current stage of civilization, and as such, the rules of warfare changed.

Religion is the same thing. Back in medieval times, if you're a catholic, you probably wouldn't even blink if you see a woman tied to a stake and burned in your town after she was declared a heretic by the inquisition. Nowadays, such things are unthinkable, and as such the catholic church - indeed the Catholic faith, underwent a transformation to become the faith that it is today.

The thing is, Christianity is willing to learn. At one point of time, Christians looked at themselves, and looked at their religion and said, "Ya know,we can't live like this any longer, people." And they grew, they enlightened their whole faith. The current church (that teaches compassion, love and all that) is very much different than the churches of the medieval times.
 

zimmer

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So the Church was illegally built? :confused:

It happens all the time in Indo. I have a friend who has a mfg. company there.

He partnered with this guy, who had the land and could act as a front. He asked him how long it would take to set up the factory. He said we could start tomorrow. Of course as a Euro he was beyond surprised. They started once the plans were drawn; over 100-people work there. No permits.

Happens all the time; not only that but he's had newspaper articles about him there.

This is persecution and intolerance plain and simple.

.
 
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satandog

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Why on earth would any Christian want to go to let alone live in any Muslim Nation. Islam is a death Cult and Indonesia is the largest Muslim Country there is with about 202.9 million identified as Muslim (88.2% of the total population). And that my friends is a lot of trouble waiting to happen.

And yes you hear some claim to be moderates but that is BS the Cults guide book tells them they must kill the infidels and boys and girls is any one who is not a Muslim. Of course they give one chance to convert but then hey. You have got a head lopping or stoning in your future.

They can't help it it's drummed it to them from child hood and they are not allowed to think for themselves ever and there is no such thing as having the spirit move yo, You have to toe the line or else.

You have no idea what is going on in Indonesia. I have been to Jakarta three times over the past four years and never had any issues. Once was During Christmas and it was funny how many businesses had people wearing Santa hats and were promoting the holiday.

Not to say that tolerance of Christians is not much worse in other areas but people in glass houses should not throw stones, as our own intolerance of Muslims is nothing to be proud of.
 
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