• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Can you be saved by faith alone?

phattonez said:
This says the same thing. Some sins are mortal. Some are not.
Click to expand...
No, it does not...some sins incur death, some do not...there is a difference in saying a sin is mortal or not, since all sins committed by mortal man are mortal sins...they cannot be anything else but mortal...
 
phattonez said:
That doesn't exclude Him being of the same substance of the Father.
Click to expand...
Which does not in any sense means that Jesus is God...he is divine but he is not God...God has no beginning, Jesus does have a beginning...
 
Elvira said:
No, it does not...some sins incur death, some do not...there is a difference in saying a sin is mortal or not, since all sins committed by mortal man are mortal sins...they cannot be anything else but mortal...
Click to expand...
The word mortal refers to the sin, not to the man.
 
Elvira said:
Which does not in any sense means that Jesus is God...he is divine but he is not God...God has no beginning, Jesus does have a beginning...
Click to expand...
You can have the same substance of God yet not be God? What?
 
phattonez said:
The word mortal refers to the sin, not to the man.
Click to expand...
No, it does not...the definition says different...mortal means subject to death...as the scripture states...

(of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death.
 
Elvira said:
No, it does not...the definition says different...mortal means subject to death...as the scripture states...

(of a living human being, often in contrast to a divine being) subject to death.
Click to expand...
Yes. Some sin leads to death. Some does not.
 
phattonez said:
What differentiates gods and God? Is there more than one God?
Click to expand...
The is only ONE God Almighty who created all things, yet there are many gods...the Bible upholds that fact...
 
Elvira said:
The is only ONE God Almighty who created all things, yet there are many gods...the Bible upholds that fact...
Click to expand...
So the difference is that only God creates?
 
phattonez said:
So the difference is that only God creates?
Click to expand...
Yes, including Jesus Christ...Jesus then shared in the creative works, however, that did not make him a co-Creator with Jehovah God...the power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force...Jehovah is the Source of all life, including the life of Jesus Christ...Jesus was merely the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked...we know this, since Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the scriptures....Jesus was there when Adam and Eve were created, yet he gave all credit for their creation to Jehovah God, not himself in any way...

"In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” Matthew 19:4-6
 
Elvira said:
Yes, including Jesus Christ...Jesus then shared in the creative works, however, that did not make him a co-Creator with Jehovah God...the power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force...Jehovah is the Source of all life, including the life of Jesus Christ...Jesus was merely the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked...we know this, since Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the scriptures....Jesus was there when Adam and Eve were created, yet he gave all credit for their creation to Jehovah God, not himself in any way...

"In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” Matthew 19:4-6
Click to expand...
Let's get all of the facts straight.

Jesus existed from the beginning.
He is above all creation.
Through Him all things were made.
He is not made.

His will is perfectly united with God's.

So you have a being who has always existed, is not made, who made all things, and who has the same will as God. That's no angel. That's God.
 
phattonez said:
Let's get all of the facts straight.

Jesus existed from the beginning.
He is above all creation.
Through Him all things were made.
He is not made.

His will is perfectly united with God's.

So you have a being who has always existed, is not made, who made all things, and who has the same will as God. That's no angel. That's God.
Click to expand...
Wrong...Jesus had a beginning, he was created, unlike God, who has always been...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" Colossians 1:15

"From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." Psalm 90:2

Jesus is in subjection to God...always has been, always will be...

"the head of the Christ is God." 1 Corinthians 11:3

"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1 Corinthians 15:28
 
Elvira said:
Wrong...Jesus had a beginning, he was created, unlike God, who has always been...

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" Colossians 1:15

"From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." Psalm 90:2

Jesus is in subjection to God...always has been, always will be...

"the head of the Christ is God." 1 Corinthians 11:3

"But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." 1 Corinthians 15:28
Click to expand...
"In the beginning was the Word"
"He was in the beginning with God"

"The Word became flesh"

You're confusing the beginning of Jesus with His human birth.
 
phattonez said:
"In the beginning was the Word"
"He was in the beginning with God"

"The Word became flesh"

You're confusing the beginning of Jesus with His human birth.
Click to expand...
No, I'm not...Jesus had a pre-human existence...John particularly emphasizes that fact...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." John 1:1-3

"I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.” John 8:28

"I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me." John 8:42

"So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." John 17:5

"Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world." John 17:24
 
Elvira said:
No, it does not...some sins incur death, some do not...there is a difference in saying a sin is mortal or not, since all sins committed by mortal man are mortal sins...they cannot be anything else but mortal...
Click to expand...
You admit the distinction in the first sentence.
 
Elvira said:
No, I'm not...Jesus had a pre-human existence...John particularly emphasizes that fact...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." John 1:1-3

"I speak the things I have seen while with my Father, but you do the things you have heard from your father.” John 8:28

"I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me." John 8:42

"So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." John 17:5

"Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world." John 17:24
Click to expand...
You're making my point here.
 
phattonez said:
You're making my point here.
Click to expand...
Your point is that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation...he was created by God first and through him, by God's power alone, all other things were created...good!
 
Elvira said:
Your point is that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation...he was created by God first and through him, by God's power alone, all other things were created...good!
Click to expand...
The contradictions are staring you in the face. He's above all creation and through him all things were made. You desperately hold onto the line "firstborn of all creation." But your understanding of this is wrong, because Jesus existed at the beginning with the Father. There was never a time without Jesus. So you haven't effectively dealt with the contradiction inherent in the position. You merely change the meaning of the texts I quote to provide an exception that is nowhere indicated, whereas I can easily explain your quote, accepting that Christ is born, and the reference to creation relating to his human nature. No contradictions. Everything accepted. Where the JW position in essence throws out verses it doesn't like and adds articles to verses that are nowhere in the Greek "a God" vs "God."
 
phattonez said:
The contradictions are staring you in the face. He's above all creation and through him all things were made. You desperately hold onto the line "firstborn of all creation." But your understanding of this is wrong, because Jesus existed at the beginning with the Father. There was never a time without Jesus. So you haven't effectively dealt with the contradiction inherent in the position. You merely change the meaning of the texts I quote to provide an exception that is nowhere indicated, whereas I can easily explain your quote, accepting that Christ is born, and the reference to creation relating to his human nature. No contradictions. Everything accepted. Where the JW position in essence throws out verses it doesn't like and adds articles to verses that are nowhere in the Greek "a God" vs "God."
Click to expand...
Sorry, it is you who desperately holds on to contradictions/false teachings, even though the truth stares you in the face...in the beginning...refers to the time when God began creating...God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus...John 1:14-17...which makes Jesus the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation"...Jesus was “the beginning of the creation by God”

“To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God"

So Jesus existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created and by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth”...
 
Elvira said:
Sorry, it is you who desperately holds on to contradictions/false teachings, even though the truth stares you in the face...in the beginning...refers to the time when God began creating...God’s first creation was termed the Word, a heavenly designation of the one who became Jesus...John 1:14-17...which makes Jesus the only one who can rightly be called “the firstborn of all creation"...Jesus was “the beginning of the creation by God”

“To the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God"

So Jesus existed before other spirit creatures and the physical universe were created and by means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth”...
Click to expand...
Then the Bible is wrong when it says that Jesus will be above all creation, and without Him was made NOTHING that was made.

I guess that's why the Watchtower changes the Greek, adding things that aren't there whenever they want.
 
phattonez said:
Then the Bible is wrong when it says that Jesus will be above all creation, and without Him was made NOTHING that was made.

I guess that's why the Watchtower changes the Greek, adding things that aren't there whenever they want.
Click to expand...
Of course he is above all creation because he is a part of creation, who has been placed in charge of all creation...as the archangel...chief over all the angels, seraphs, and cherubs...Jesus is the mightiest of all of Jehovah’s creations...Colossians 1:15
 
Elvira said:
Of course he is above all creation because he is a part of creation, who has been placed in charge of all creation...as the archangel...chief over all the angels, seraphs, and cherubs...Jesus is the mightiest of all of Jehovah’s creations...Colossians 1:15
Click to expand...
Look at the very next verse:
"for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom