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Bomb explodes at Jerusalem bus stop; 25 wounded

I did not say it is illegitimate to respond to an attack. That does not mean you should

Yeah, you should respond militarily to attacks. It's the responsibility of every government to protect its population.

Not a very difficult concept to comprehend, after all.
 
Gunner you stated:

"I feel adequately informed as the next person to pass comment on threads of this nature so please refrain from the 'arm chair' accusations."

Why you admitted as such. You admitted you haven't been on the ground or in the theatre of conflict you profess expertise in. You also just admitted you have no specific evidence just assumptions you are making from a distance.

Its a valid criticism. You are an arm chair critic.


You stated:

"After serving tours in Bosnia-NI-Desert storm 91 i am reasonably familiar with situations where force may be necessary."

That is an illogical statement to make. What you are trying to do is justify making assumptions based on assuming the theatre in Bosnia or Desert Storm is the same as with Gaza and the West Bank. With due respect that is nonsensical and if you are a soldier you know why.

You stated:

"Your accusation here of me using a subjective line is quite correct."

Yes and I will give you a hard time over your assumptions but get this straight, if you did serve in Bosnia or Desert Storm I certainly respect your insights as to conflict and respect you for what you have done and I am giving you a string debate but do not mistake that as disrespect for you. I salute your service and thank you.

You stated:

" The main element of your reply explicitly suggests Israel has a 'right' to engage enemy combatants in all but every occasion."

No not at all. I would argue the IDF has a legal obligation as does its government to defend its citizens against Hamas attacks. But no you have read what I said. I do not condone those tactics which can be shown to have been excessive and avoidable. I am challenging a blanket assumption that everything the IDF does is wrong the moment it tries to defend its people.

You stated:
" If the IDF knowingly target a person in a civilian theatre..."

Therein lies the rub. Do you presume to second guess when a soldier goes into the heat of battle after Hamas hes' deliberately targetting a civilian? Did you? Are you saying you weren't put in positions that imperilled civilians? Are you telling me in Bosnia and Desert Storm innocent civilians were not killed and all the force was absolutely necessary? Its easy in hindsight to criticize U.S. tactics, Israeli tactics, British tactics, and now current Canadian tactics for example in Afghanistan. What I am saying is, its too easy.

You stated:

"referring back to my position on Gaza's topography/infrastructure] then by default, the IDF knowingly accept the high probability of civilian casualties. This is very hard to justify."

No its not and therein lies the rub. The IDF knows Hamas deliberately uses the crowded civilian centre of Gaza as a shield. It knows this and it operates trying not to kill civilians. Yes sometimes it fails. It however has lost soldiers to trying to avoid civilian deaths-many. If you take the time to talk to IDF you will know this. They are not standard soldiers like they are portrayed. They carry a heavier moral burden precisely because people like you assume since Hamas hides behind civilians and uses them as shields the IDF should refrain from response. They can't. To understand Hamas is to understand silence means more missiles and bomb attacks, it fuels their will. That is the irony of the cycle of violence. If the IDF does nothing, its civilians will die. If it does something civilians will die.

Yous tated:

"Other posters offering similarities with incidents in Afghanistan etc proves very little, other than 'incidents happen in Afghanistan.
This brings to the fore the 'suspect' nature of Israeli forces rules of engagement during operation cast lead."

I have British, American, Dutch and Canadian friends who served in Afghanistan. Innocent civilians have been killed for the exact same reason they have in Gaza.

Finally I know you have read not just the Goldstone report but its repudiation by military experts and in particular a British military expert. I am not going to re debate Goldstone other than to say it is not a credible military report. It is in fact an example of people with no military evidence, relying on unsubstantiated heresay from people they knew had a politically bias agenda and it was word for word disected and proven inaccurate.

I say again-the IDF make mistakes. They have many times. I am not saying they can't constantly improve and must seriously reform their practices over and over again. I personally do not like white phosophorous weapons which you know were regularly used in many theatres of war. I am not happy civilians die. But to level the criticism you do at the IDF relying on assumptions by reading Goldstone I would suggest is not helpful.

Provide me some analysis from military professionals and I would be glad to concede points they make if they can back them up.

In conclusion, I am debating your assumptions, not you as a person or your right to question the IDF. I don't deny they have made mistakes either.

What I am waiting for is suggestions how you think they should deal with Hamas.

Salute.

I do concede this however loud and clear-your opinion means much more to me then someone who does not have your experience. You are respected by me for it. You will be treated with respect by me for it.
 
How many examples would you like? Of course, feeling the need to respond is different from responding so perhaps you should rephrase that request since I am only taking about taking action rather than wanting to take action.

OK, go for it. Rockets into which country do not generate a response?

then run the exercise with frequencies and volumes thrown into the mix, just for the sake of a robust analysis.

Hamas has no genocidal aspirations.

and **** don't stink.

I did not say it is illegitimate to respond to an attack.

Yes, you did. You compared responding to an atatck to running someone over with your car. And you surely knew when you wrote this that running someone over with your car is not a legitimate action.

You were attempting to construct a nonsense argument that even though Israel did not mean to hit the person who was hit, they meant to hit someone else and so therefore that they hit the wrong person is no excuse and is morally comparable to the Palestinians deliberately targeting Israeli civilians for murder.

[quoute]
That does not mean you should and it doesn't excuse Israel from the fact it is ultimately responsible for all the violence directed against it. When you come to another people's land, make it your land against their will by flooding it with your people, lock them out of your society, and abuse them it is only natural for there to be retaliation.
[/quote]

Of course. All Palestinian actions are "resistance" justified by Israel's continued existence. Since Israel's existence is not legitimate, nothing it does to protect its sovereignty or its people is legitimate either. All violence directed towards Israel and Israeli civilians is justified because Israel continues to exist against the wishes of the Palestinians. You "did not say it is illegitimate to respond to an attack", but yet in the next breath you say that it is illigitimate for ISRAEL to respond to any attack because all such attacks are justified by Israel's existence and those attacks are responses meant to right a wrong.

Are you not seeing this, or is the incoherence intentional?
 
I have British, American, Dutch and Canadian friends who served in Afghanistan. Innocent civilians have been killed for the exact same reason they have in Gaza.
Exactly. I have two older brothers in the US military who have served multiple tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They'll tell you point blank that civilians have been killed for various reasons. With asymmetric and urban warfare becoming the norm, this situation is for all practical purposes unavoidable. This happens with the US military - the best trained and best equipped military force in the world - and with all conventional forces when placed in such a crucible. The British military abandoned Mandate Palestine because they were being sucked into a tactical abyss. Israel doesn't have that luxury.
 
OK, go for it. Rockets into which country do not generate a response?

then run the exercise with frequencies and volumes thrown into the mix, just for the sake of a robust analysis.

You are pulling the same crap don did a while back of demanding an example of identical situations. Anyone with any modicum of intelligence knows there is rarely if ever an identical situation in another region of the world. Now then, as far as examples I can point to instances where a handful of soldiers, even dozens of soldiers, were killed in border clashes or blatant acts of aggression only to have no military response come from it. At this point I can think of no example where attacks that involve no deaths have resulted in serious military actions like Cast Lead.

Terrorist bombings, even if they are connected to a group, do not usually invite a massive military response when there are not severe casualties.

and **** don't stink.

Please provide proof of such aspirations.

Yes, you did. You compared responding to an atatck to running someone over with your car. And you surely knew when you wrote this that running someone over with your car is not a legitimate action.

Gardener is the one who made the comparison to running someone over with a car. I simply modified his scenario to better reflect what actually occurs.

Of course. All Palestinian actions are "resistance" justified by Israel's continued existence. Since Israel's existence is not legitimate, nothing it does to protect its sovereignty or its people is legitimate either. All violence directed towards Israel and Israeli civilians is justified because Israel continues to exist against the wishes of the Palestinians. You "did not say it is illegitimate to respond to an attack", but yet in the next breath you say that it is illigitimate for ISRAEL to respond to any attack because all such attacks are justified by Israel's existence and those attacks are responses meant to right a wrong.

Are you not seeing this, or is the incoherence intentional?

I did not say all the Palestinian actions are justified or that none of Israel's actions are legitimate. The past only plays a part in understanding the present, it is not a justification. As long as Israel plays the innocent victim and fails to acknowledge how it has brought this situation on itself you are unlikely to see a resolution. When you refuse to entertain the thought that you have done anything wrong how can you possibly pursue an amicable solution?
 
Terrorist bombings, even if they are connected to a group, do not usually invite a massive military response when there are not severe casualties.

The UN Charter and international law provided for Israel to take self-defensive military countermeasures in Gaza IRRESPECTIVE of the casualty count.

Gazans fired 12,000 shrapnel-filled anti-personnel rockets into civilian Israeli population centers designed to inflict MAXIMUM human damage. Israel was entirely compliant with the law of armed conflict in destroying entirely Hamas military objectives and eliminating any further threat to Israeli national security.
 
We have been brought so off thread topic.


Gunner you stated:

"I feel adequately informed as the next person to pass comment on threads of this nature so please refrain from the 'arm chair' accusations."

Why you admitted as such. You admitted you haven't been on the ground or in the theatre of conflict you profess expertise in. You also just admitted you have no specific evidence just assumptions you are making from a distance.

Its a valid criticism. You are an arm chair critic.


You stated:

"After serving tours in Bosnia-NI-Desert storm 91 i am reasonably familiar with situations where force may be necessary."

That is an illogical statement to make. What you are trying to do is justify making assumptions based on assuming the theatre in Bosnia or Desert Storm is the same as with Gaza and the West Bank. With due respect that is nonsensical and if you are a soldier you know why.

You stated:

"Your accusation here of me using a subjective line is quite correct."

Yes and I will give you a hard time over your assumptions but get this straight, if you did serve in Bosnia or Desert Storm I certainly respect your insights as to conflict and respect you for what you have done and I am giving you a string debate but do not mistake that as disrespect for you. I salute your service and thank you.

You stated:

" The main element of your reply explicitly suggests Israel has a 'right' to engage enemy combatants in all but every occasion."

No not at all. I would argue the IDF has a legal obligation as does its government to defend its citizens against Hamas attacks. But no you have read what I said. I do not condone those tactics which can be shown to have been excessive and avoidable. I am challenging a blanket assumption that everything the IDF does is wrong the moment it tries to defend its people.

You stated:
" If the IDF knowingly target a person in a civilian theatre..."

Therein lies the rub. Do you presume to second guess when a soldier goes into the heat of battle after Hamas hes' deliberately targetting a civilian? Did you? Are you saying you weren't put in positions that imperilled civilians? Are you telling me in Bosnia and Desert Storm innocent civilians were not killed and all the force was absolutely necessary? Its easy in hindsight to criticize U.S. tactics, Israeli tactics, British tactics, and now current Canadian tactics for example in Afghanistan. What I am saying is, its too easy.

You stated:

"referring back to my position on Gaza's topography/infrastructure] then by default, the IDF knowingly accept the high probability of civilian casualties. This is very hard to justify."

No its not and therein lies the rub. The IDF knows Hamas deliberately uses the crowded civilian centre of Gaza as a shield. It knows this and it operates trying not to kill civilians. Yes sometimes it fails. It however has lost soldiers to trying to avoid civilian deaths-many. If you take the time to talk to IDF you will know this. They are not standard soldiers like they are portrayed. They carry a heavier moral burden precisely because people like you assume since Hamas hides behind civilians and uses them as shields the IDF should refrain from response. They can't. To understand Hamas is to understand silence means more missiles and bomb attacks, it fuels their will. That is the irony of the cycle of violence. If the IDF does nothing, its civilians will die. If it does something civilians will die.

Yous tated:

"Other posters offering similarities with incidents in Afghanistan etc proves very little, other than 'incidents happen in Afghanistan.
This brings to the fore the 'suspect' nature of Israeli forces rules of engagement during operation cast lead."

I have British, American, Dutch and Canadian friends who served in Afghanistan. Innocent civilians have been killed for the exact same reason they have in Gaza.

Finally I know you have read not just the Goldstone report but its repudiation by military experts and in particular a British military expert. I am not going to re debate Goldstone other than to say it is not a credible military report. It is in fact an example of people with no military evidence, relying on unsubstantiated heresay from people they knew had a politically bias agenda and it was word for word disected and proven inaccurate.

I say again-the IDF make mistakes. They have many times. I am not saying they can't constantly improve and must seriously reform their practices over and over again. I personally do not like white phosophorous weapons which you know were regularly used in many theatres of war. I am not happy civilians die. But to level the criticism you do at the IDF relying on assumptions by reading Goldstone I would suggest is not helpful.

Provide me some analysis from military professionals and I would be glad to concede points they make if they can back them up.

In conclusion, I am debating your assumptions, not you as a person or your right to question the IDF. I don't deny they have made mistakes either.

What I am waiting for is suggestions how you think they should deal with Hamas.

Salute.

I do concede this however loud and clear-your opinion means much more to me then someone who does not have your experience. You are respected by me for it. You will be treated with respect by me for it.



Mika-El I think you are pulling the covers up over your eyes so that you will not see what you do not want to see.

Look at the evidence
1. You have a new philosophy being created so that the killing of innocents, the non protection of civilians can be legitimised

The Second Battle of Gaza: Israel

That is a highly illuminating article because depending on how much you have read this forum, you will have found posters referring to concepts in that bizarre concept of ethics as if they were everyday, as if this is what ordinary human beings would think.

2. You can complain about the Goldstone report till you are blue in the face but I would think it would have been impossible for the UN to have found anyone who could have been seen as more impartial - unless you need the head of the IDF to do the inquiry

In Gaza, hundreds of civilians died. They died from disproportionate attacks on legitimate military targets and from attacks on hospitals and other civilian structures. They died from precision weapons like missiles from aerial drones as well as from heavy artillery. Repeatedly, the Israel Defense Forces failed to adequately distinguish between combatants and civilians, as the laws of war strictly require.

Israel is correct that identifying combatants in a heavily populated area is difficult, and that Hamas fighters at times mixed and mingled with civilians. But that reality did not lift Israel’s obligation to take all feasible measures to minimize harm to civilians.

Op-Ed Contributor - Justice in Gaza - NYTimes.com

As you well know the report also criticised Hamas for war crimes.

3. Mira has previously in other threads provided evidence and evidence and evidence of soldiers from the IDF complaining about what went on.

Here are 3 more soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lFHaIgCDE4&feature=youtu.be

Now you can argue till you are blue in the face but some of us, Israeli's included will not stay quiet when civilians are being treated like this. Around 1,400 Palestinians killed - two third of them civilians and one third children. 13 Israelis soldiers killed - give us a break.

Regarding your other stuff to Paul. He fought with the British army. We all know the US can be extremely trigger happy. Like Israel but unlike the UK it is not committed to IHL. The UK learned a serious lesson from 'Bloddy Sunday'. We expect our soldiers to act decently and to abide by IHL and when if it is found they have not we demand to know why - we do not just say, oh that is what soldiers do. Indeed this may well be the reason why there is a complaint that more Europeans criticise Israel than Americans. We believe in IHL. If you do not that is fine but we are miles apart.

Like I said you have the evidence, you have the words of the soldiers, you have the philosophy allowing disproportionate force and disregard for civilian life and you have the Goldstein report all of which you choose to ignore.

Now can we get this thread back on topic.
 
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The International rules of warfare were crafted when conventional forces engaged in battle with other conventional forces. In this regard, the guidelines are sensible and beneficial. However, the preponderance of military engagement today does not feature opposing conventional forces. We witness the asymmetric warfare modus operandi utilized in SE Asia, in the Middle East, and in Africa. The very nature of asymmetric warfare is oppositional and anathema to the accepted rules of warfare. It is akin to trying to play checkers according the rules of chess. It is unworkable, and always lends disproportional tactical benefits to the inferior force.

Clearly, the international rules of warfare need to be updated/reformatted to reflect the modern realities of asymmetric and urban warfare.
 
The International rules of warfare were crafted when conventional forces engaged in battle with other conventional forces. In this regard, the guidelines are sensible and beneficial. However, the preponderance of military engagement today does not feature opposing conventional forces. We witness the asymmetric warfare modus operandi utilized in SE Asia, in the Middle East, and in Africa. The very nature of asymmetric warfare is oppositional and anathema to the accepted rules of warfare. It is akin to trying to play checkers according the rules of chess. It is unworkable, and always lends disproportional tactical benefits to the inferior force.

Clearly, the international rules of warfare need to be updated/reformatted to reflect the modern realities of asymmetric and urban warfare.

Those are extremely valid points for discussion Tashah. The problem though just because you see Israel as having to fight with one hand tied behind their back as a legitimate enough reason to 'change the rules of the game', i do not. If we were able to change rules [international law etc] we would not still be in Afghanistan/Iraq as the highest standards of care, from our military's, would be of no relevance.
Further, what you really mean is change the rules so it makes it easier for IDF to kill its enemy. As an ex military person that's a fair request. If we honour that request we embark on a very slippery slope into the abyss of arbitrary action.
What surprises me from your post is the inference that the enemy's faced by many Western forces are in any way, shape or form able to fight conventionally-even down to possessing conventional weaponry. This in NO way mitigates your reasoning for 'changing the rules of warfare'. The way i see it to continue holding the 'moral' high ground' means our ability to not lowering the standards, but in fact strengthening our standards, thus underpinning our legitimacy further.
Its unfortunate that the IDF endure one of the most difficult and unenviable theatres of operation the world over, that in no way gives credence or special dispensation to be able to violate 'just' principles. "To be better, you must act better"

Paul
 
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Those are extremely valid points for discussion Tashah. The problem though just because you see Israel as having to fight with one hand tied behind their back as a legitimate enough reason to 'change the rules of the game', i do not. If we were able to change rules [international law etc] we would not still be in Afghanistan/Iraq as the highest standards of care, from our military's, would be of no relevance.
Further, what you really mean is change the rules so it makes it easier for IDF to kill its enemy. As an ex military person that's a fair request. If we honour that request we embark on a very slippery slope into the abyss of arbitrary action.
What surprises me from your post is the inference that the enemy's faced by many Western forces are in any way, shape or form able to fight conventionally-even down to possessing conventional weaponry. This in NO way mitigates your reasoning for 'changing the rules of warfare'. The way i see it to continue holding the 'moral' high ground' means our ability to not lowering the standards, but in fact strengthening our standards, thus underpinning our legitimacy further.
Its unfortunate that the IDF endure one of the most difficult and unenviable theatres of operation the world over, that in no way gives credence or special dispensation to be able to violate 'just' principles. "To be better, you must act better"

Paul

I am a bit incredulous as I read the post above. America and the UK well know the problems inherent in this type of warfare and while they try and reduce civilian deaths there are still many. Hundreds of innocent Afghans are killed each year by coalition forces. More are killed by drones we send into Afghanistab and Pakistan.

Let's remember that neither the UK nor America are protecting it's citizens from almost daily bombing as is Israel. Yet the world yawns when 9 kids are killed picking up firewood. No rocket that was fired off from a field right behind their house just a mistake. If Israel had made a mistake like that there would be a U.N. resolution!

So at the end of the day, I find it hard to take your comments seriously. Though you deserve points for a nice try to delegitimize Israel's right of self-defense.
 
Colonel Richard Kemp, the decorated war hero who commanded British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, knows best when he praises the IDF as the most professional, moral military in the world...

I am in no way undermining a long distinguished military officer but some facts we must be mindful of. Colonel Richard Kemp has close ties with Israels Military from as far back as 2005. With that in mind, the validity of his testimony or comments are to be viewed as not wholly impartial. By Kemps admission he did not visit Gaza and had gleaned his opinion from public literature and news coverage.

"Kemp has also claimed to have relied on Israeli expertise in Afghanistan, stating that after finding himself unable to deal with the threat of suicide bombers, he received help from an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) anti-suicide bombing expert. He also claimed to have received help from the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency, following the 2005 London bombings, and is well-acquainted with Israeli intelligence from past cooperation".

Richard Kemp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paul
 
Those are extremely valid points for discussion Tashah. The problem though just because you see Israel as having to fight with one hand tied behind their back as a legitimate enough reason to 'change the rules of the game', i do not. If we were able to change rules [international law etc] we would not still be in Afghanistan/Iraq as the highest standards of care, from our military's, would be of no relevance.
Further, what you really mean is change the rules so it makes it easier for IDF to kill its enemy. As an ex military person that's a fair request. If we honour that request we embark on a very slippery slope into the abyss of arbitrary action.
What surprises me from your post is the inference that the enemy's faced by many Western forces are in any way, shape or form able to fight conventionally-even down to possessing conventional weaponry. This in NO way mitigates your reasoning for 'changing the rules of warfare'. The way i see it to continue holding the 'moral' high ground' means our ability to not lowering the standards, but in fact strengthening our standards, thus underpinning our legitimacy further.
Its unfortunate that the IDF endure one of the most difficult and unenviable theatres of operation the world over, that in no way gives credence or special dispensation to be able to violate 'just' principles. "To be better, you must act better"

Paul
I never said to dispense with the rules of warfare. What I clearly said is to "update and reformat" them. This means augmenting the rules already encoded to meet the modern contingencies of war that were not envisioned over half a century ago. If such rules always remained static as you suggest - never updating - then the rules of warfare today would still be identical to those used by the Roman legions. As is obvious, this isn't the case. As I said previously, you cannot play checkers using the rules of chess. The westernized nations - with all their military power - are discovering this truism. They are methodically bled until their public demands a withdrawal.

As for me lol, I would be perfectly happy with a sword and battle-axe.
 
I never said to dispense with the rules of warfare. What I clearly said is to "update and reformat" them. This means augmenting the rules already encoded to meet the modern contingencies of war that were not envisioned over half a century ago. If such rules always remained static as you suggest - never updating - then the rules of warfare today would still be identical to those used by the Roman legions. As is obvious, this isn't the case. As I said previously, you cannot play checkers using the rules of chess. The westernized nations - with all their military power - are discovering this truism. They are methodically bled until their public demands a withdrawal.

As for me lol, I would be perfectly happy with a sword and battle-axe.

You have a very high opinion of yourself.

Paul
 
The westernized nations - with all their military power - are discovering this truism. They are methodically bled until their public demands a withdrawal.

This is a key point. Given the democratic nature of those states, no public policy is sustainable indefinitely when the public is overwhelmingly against it e.g., new governments more compatible with public sentiment would be elected if existing governments don't eventually accommodate public opinon.

Non-democratic regimes don't face that challenge, at least not to the extent that the democratic ones do. Aggressors and would-be aggressors understand that the need to maintain favorable public support can be an Achilles Heel for the Western states. As a result, their main strategy is to transform conflicts into long-running wars of attrition. That leaves the West with the increasing need to deliver lasting knockout blow early on or put battlefield gains at risk should public sentiment turn against a conflict.
 
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This is a key point. Given the democratic nature of those states, no public policy is sustainable indefinitely when the public is overwhelmingly against it e.g., new governments more compatible with public sentiment would be elected if existing governments don't eventually accommodate public opinon.

Non-democratic regimes don't face that challenge, at least not to the extent that the democratic ones do. Aggressors and would-be aggressors understand that the need to maintain favorable public support can be an Achilles Heel for the Western states. As a result, their main strategy is to transform conflicts into long-running wars of attrition. That leaves the West with the increasing need to deliver lasting knockout blow early on or put battlefield gains at risk should public sentiment turn against a conflict.

Don if it was something which came from the people there would be no need to hire people to come up with propaganda masquerading as 'ethics' as here The Second Battle of Gaza: Israel


When the British people heard of Dresden, they were up in arms. They were furious. They were at war with Germany but that did not mean they had lost their feeling of humanity for other civilians and quite rightly so. Because of this WC withdrew and pretended it had little to do with him and those who were involved incurred no honours.

If it were something which came from the people - that is the people supporting the army to degrade it's humanity with regard to it's duty of care for civilians and proportionality then that would be something which on the level of humanity we would all need to take a pause and view very soberly.

If we lose our humanity it does not matter who we are ruled by. We simply have no humanity.
 
This is a key point. Given the democratic nature of those states, no public policy is sustainable indefinitely when the public is overwhelmingly against it e.g., new governments more compatible with public sentiment would be elected if existing governments don't eventually accommodate public opinon.

Non-democratic regimes don't face that challenge, at least not to the extent that the democratic ones do. Aggressors and would-be aggressors understand that the need to maintain favorable public support can be an Achilles Heel for the Western states. As a result, their main strategy is to transform conflicts into long-running wars of attrition. That leaves the West with the increasing need to deliver lasting knockout blow early on or put battlefield gains at risk should public sentiment turn against a conflict.

I agree with the above but that is a predicament the West has to deal with. The alternative as you know full well can be far more 'destructive' and brutal. Also, what are we left with if we stop listening to the people?

Paul
 
...When the British people heard of Dresden, they were up in arms. They were furious. They were at war with Germany but that did not mean they had lost their feeling of humanity for other civilians and quite rightly so. Because of this WC withdrew and pretended it had little to do with him and those who were involved incurred no honours.

If it were something which came from the people - that is the people supporting the army to degrade it's humanity with regard to it's duty of care for civilians and proportionality then that would be something which on the level of humanity we would all need to take a pause and view very soberly.

If we lose our humanity it does not matter who we are ruled by. We simply have no humanity.

Alexa,

A number of thoughts:

1. The British people were rightly furious. IMO, the firebombing of Dresden was not necessary. The industrial facilities were located outside the city. The relentless assault served no strategic military purpose. Nevertheless, what happened provides an illustration of how things can evolve when a conflict becomes one of total war. The Allies, and by no means the UK only, saw their effort spiral into a situation where they sought total destruction of the enemy (too broadly defined).

2. There is a real need to uphold the Laws of War e.g. those that bar indiscriminate bombardment, deliberate targeting of civilians, attacks on military objectives when the expected harm to civilians is excessive relative to the military advantage expected to be gained, etc.

3. Application of those laws has become more difficult in an era of asymmetric warfare. Military planners face an unenviable task. In the past, if military forces acted honorably, they would be readily distinguishable from civilians. Today, non-state actors (terrorist organizations) and some states use civilians as human shields, so to speak. They do not wear uniforms. They make no effort to distinguish themselves from civilians. They live and hide among civilians, hoping to be immune from attack. That reality creates grave problems for military planners. Even as weapons sytems have grown far more precise, that precision has been negated in many cases by the new tactics that are deployed in numerous conflicts. In the future, weapons systems improvements and new combat techniques might be able to offset some of the problems associated with today's tactics. But, as always, there will remain risks of error, accident, etc. All military forces retain the obligation to make the best effort possible to deal with these realities. But even then, one cannot expect perfection. So long as they make a good faith effort to abide by the Laws of War--particularly in protecting civilians and refraining from the commission of war crimes--they will retain their humanity.

4. Barring a dramatic change in human nature, there will also be some actors who ignore the Laws of War, prefer victory (on their terms) to peace, devalue human life, etc. To the greatest extent possible, other countries should ignore the temptation to resort to similar tactics when engaged in conflict with such actors.

5. I prefer diplomacy to war. Nonetheless, there will always be some states (or non-state actors) that put ideology ahead of compromise, leading to a fundamental clash of interests at a level where war is the only resort. I do believe that diplomacy can probably go farther than it often does if power is brought to bear early on--not in warfare, but in persuading an adversary that a state (or combination of states) possesses the power and willingness to use that power to defend its critical interests. Then, if deterrence is achieved, the costs associated with conflict would be perceived as unacceptable relative to what opportunities might exist. With such a calculation by a would-be aggressor, negotiation would have a better chance to become the preferred method of conflict resolution and trade-offs necessary to reach agreement would look relatively more attractive.

Needless to say, there will always be some revolutionary actors for which negotiation is unacceptable or that the status quo, which might be quite stable/prosperous, is something to be smashed. In such cases, deterrence is particularly important. Otherwise, when the opportunity presents itself, the revolutionary actor(s) would be willing to take risks to exploit any actual or perceived weaknesses.
 
The International rules of warfare were crafted when conventional forces engaged in battle with other conventional forces. In this regard, the guidelines are sensible and beneficial. However, the preponderance of military engagement today does not feature opposing conventional forces. We witness the asymmetric warfare modus operandi utilized in SE Asia, in the Middle East, and in Africa. The very nature of asymmetric warfare is oppositional and anathema to the accepted rules of warfare. It is akin to trying to play checkers according the rules of chess. It is unworkable, and always lends disproportional tactical benefits to the inferior force.

Clearly, the international rules of warfare need to be updated/reformatted to reflect the modern realities of asymmetric and urban warfare.

What I am getting out of that is you are suggesting laws of war intended to protect innocent civilians are too protective and diminish a country's ability to achieve objectives in war. Honestly, I think it is better for the rules to be more restrictive and people more readily held accountable. The reality however is Israel blatantly violates the rules of war in countless ways. During the Lebanon War Israeli aircraft were given orders to fire on pretty much any vehicle leaving Lebanese cities.

In Cast Lead Israel started out by bombing the entire police force without discriminating, even though this is a blatant violation of the rules of war. The fact some police might moonlight as soldiers does not justify targeting the police force as a unit, certainly not a graduation ceremony for people just entering the police force.

You must come to understand that while Israel is not the only country the behave unethically in war it is the most flagrant violator of the developed world and is even worse than some developing countries.

Maybe if you spent a moment thinking how you would feel if your entire country were occupied and contained with constant bombardment from which there was no escape because you were not allowed to leave for other lands. Lebanon had it better. People could flee to the north where the bombing was less intense or cross the border to Syria. In Gaza there is no escape. It is a death trap of Israel's own design. Perhaps if you truly thought about what that would be like you would understand why a person might feel like blowing up a crowded bus stop.
 
Alexa,
2. There is a real need to uphold the Laws of War e.g. those that bar indiscriminate bombardment, deliberate targeting of civilians, attacks on military objectives when the expected harm to civilians is excessive relative to the military advantage expected to be gained, etc.

and here Israel has been found lacking.

3. Application of those laws has become more difficult in an era of asymmetric warfare. Military planners face an unenviable task. In the past, if military forces acted honorably, they would be readily distinguishable from civilians. Today, non-state actors (terrorist organizations) and some states use civilians as human shields, so to speak. They do not wear uniforms. They make no effort to distinguish themselves from civilians. They live and hide among civilians, hoping to be immune from attack. That reality creates grave problems for military planners. Even as weapons sytems have grown far more precise, that precision has been negated in many cases by the new tactics that are deployed in numerous conflicts. In the future, weapons systems improvements and new combat techniques might be able to offset some of the problems associated with today's tactics. But, as always, there will remain risks of error, accident, etc. All military forces retain the obligation to make the best effort possible to deal with these realities. But even then, one cannot expect perfection. So long as they make a good faith effort to abide by the Laws of War--particularly in protecting civilians and refraining from the commission of war crimes--they will retain their humanity.

Israel holds all the cards. It is her responsibility to adhere to International Law just as she would expect the world to adhere to International Law towards her. Her practices recently and her rhetoric to justify them are not acceptable to me. There are other ways to solve the problem and that would require being prepared to be a little more just.

Israel has been in a situation of total power. It is to her advantage that a few Palestinians have been nuts enough to engage in terrorism. This allows Israel to harm the whole population more and more. It is not acceptable.

Within the context of the topic of this thread..it is concerning that Israel is revving up at a time when Palestinians were beginning to gain some concept of the power of unity and non violent struggle. Hamas had agreed to meet with Fatah. That was hopeful for the Palestinians to get unity. From there they could dispose of both and get going in a non violent way. Of course non violent struggle has been going on for some time both from Palestinians and from Israel supporters of their plight. For Palestinians it sometimes means death, this non violent struggle.
4. Barring a dramatic change in human nature, there will also be some actors who ignore the Laws of War, prefer victory (on their terms) to peace, devalue human life, etc. To the greatest extent possible, other countries should ignore the temptation to resort to similar tactics when engaged in conflict with such actors.

We were dealing with Cast Lead and it was Israel who ignored IHL.

5. I prefer diplomacy to war. Nonetheless, there will always be some states (or non-state actors) that put ideology ahead of compromise, leading to a fundamental clash of interests at a level where war is the only resort. I do believe that diplomacy can probably go farther than it often does if power is brought to bear early on--not in warfare, but in persuading an adversary that a state (or combination of states) possesses the power and willingness to use that power to defend its critical interests. Then, if deterrence is achieved, the costs associated with conflict would be perceived as unacceptable relative to what opportunities might exist. With such a calculation by a would-be aggressor, negotiation would have a better chance to become the preferred method of conflict resolution and trade-offs necessary to reach agreement would look relatively more attractive.

You say that and you may mean it but what you always ask for is not viable. You expect people to beg for peanuts....little seperated islands with how much economic potential, how much ability for needed resources like water and so on with who always pulling the strings? Israel of course. I don't get you. You seem like a nice person but you totally fail to see that what you keep demanding is something no human being can give. Israel has to start giving back what she has taken. Israel has to start treating the Palestinian people as human beings with human rights. She has to start understanding what she herself has done to another people, to the indigenious population. There is no certainty that she will always hold favour with the US and there is no certainty that the rest of the ME will remain nuclear free.


Needless to say, there will always be some revolutionary actors for which negotiation is unacceptable or that the status quo, which might be quite stable/prosperous, is something to be smashed. In such cases, deterrence is particularly important. Otherwise, when the opportunity presents itself, the revolutionary actor(s) would be willing to take risks to exploit any actual or perceived weaknesses.

It maybe revolutionary to want justice but it is not wrong. That is what is asked. It is morally wrong to make excuses to go against IHL. At least to my values it is.

Here's the thing Don. You write like a nice, balanced, reasonable person but you do not see the situation as it is. You view it through misty glasses. I am unsure with you whether it is because you really believe what you write or whether you have a good line. ;)

I am still learning. There is a lot to learn. The more I learn the more alarmed I become.

Terrorism though disgusting does not happen in a vacuum. The IRA had every 'reason' to get started. Catholics did not even have a vote. Peaceful protest had been met with violence. It was around that time, and I had little interest in Politics at that time, but it was in I think the 70's when the PLO were hijacking planes and I became afraid to fly and did not like them, that one of our MP's said 'Terrorism is not acceptable when you have a vote, when you belong to a State'. It was only at that time I understood that the Palestinians were stateless. My view changed. Of course now no one would dare say anything like that. We used to be much more fluid. There used to be much more room for freedom of speech..but I believe everything comes in circles and this will return.

I will never support anyone going against IHL.
 
You must come to understand that while Israel is not the only country the behave unethically in war it is the most flagrant violator of the developed world and is even worse than some developing countries.
The Middle East is a brutal place. The whole world is now witness to how the brutal Arab regimes treat their very own people. They have little use for rules and no regard for innocence. Worse yet are the maniacal goals of quasi state actors such as Hamas and Hezbollah. Amid this brutal maelstrom is Israel. No other military in the world would do less than the IDF against such direct and unremitting attacks against her people. Indeed, the United States is still waging war half a world away a full decade after the homeland was attacked.
 
The Middle East is a brutal place. The whole world is now witness to how the brutal Arab regimes treat their very own people. They have little use for rules and no regard for innocence. Worse yet are the maniacal goals of quasi state actors such as Hamas and Hezbollah. Amid this brutal maelstrom is Israel. No other military in the world would do less than the IDF against such direct and unremitting attacks against her people. Indeed, the United States is still waging war half a world away a full decade after the homeland was attacked.

Obviously you have no desire to see things outside of your narrow perceptions. The fact of the matter is that what Israel does is beyond what other countries would do in the same situation. It is not the circumstances surrounding Israel that motivate its actions and it never has been.
 
Obviously you have no desire to see things outside of your narrow perceptions. The fact of the matter is that what Israel does is beyond what other countries would do in the same situation. It is not the circumstances surrounding Israel that motivate its actions and it never has been.
Actually, you have it ass-backwards.

It is what Hamas and Hezbollah do not do - follow International Law on Warfare - that always leads to problems when they tangle with the IDF.

This is an intentional and designed disregard on their part.
 
Obviously you have no desire to see things outside of your narrow perceptions. The fact of the matter is that what Israel does is beyond what other countries would do in the same situation. It is not the circumstances surrounding Israel that motivate its actions and it never has been.

This is nothing but a post with lots of big statements, and no substance. Let's look at two points:

1) "The fact of the matter is that what Israel does is beyond what other countries would do in the same situation."

Prove it. Give specific examples of other countries in the same situation and what they did.

2) "It is not the circumstances surrounding Israel that motivate its actions and it never has been."

Prove it. Links from Israeli leaders identifying what the motivations for it actions have always been. Since you said "always", you are required to post information from 1948 to the present time, and if I can find ONE comment that refutes you, you are proven wrong.

This is what happens when you make absurd overgeneralizations. Go to it.
 
This is nothing but a post with lots of big statements, and no substance. Let's look at two points:

1) "The fact of the matter is that what Israel does is beyond what other countries would do in the same situation."

Prove it. Give specific examples of other countries in the same situation and what they did.

sorry for butting in but I think we Brits tend to see a difference in how Israel responds and how we did.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 24 | 1993: IRA bomb devastates City of London

Four IRA bombs explode in London - UK, News - The Independent

BBC ON THIS DAY | 20 | 1982: IRA bombs cause carnage in London

List of terrorist incidents in London - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dealt with as far as the general public knew by Police investigation and criminal prosecution. No assassination and particularly no assassinations which lead to the killing and maiming of several innocent civilians. No house demolitions and no bombing of Northern Ireland. Yes, there was internment.

The two times where the British public were aware of the Army or secret service being indiscriminate in their killing were on Bloody Sunday and the Gibraltar killings. Both caused outrage though as you will know it was not until last year that responsibility was at last taken for Bloody Sunday.

It has sometimes been said that it was a miracle that this did not spread to Scotland and Ireland. Possibly part of the reason for that was because responses were kept on a more even level. Surely when one does something it is necessary also to think about what the psychological effect of what you do will have and also what you are wanting to achieve.

The end result Amnesty and previous terrorists now snugly in office.

(daughter and grandchildren on the way. I will go off line now)
 
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