Bloody Sunday deaths to be ruled unlawful at last

[PeteEU]

The price tag has in part to do with the covering of asses by politicians of the time and their parties. This inquiry could be over in a short time and cost next to nothing, but because of political pressure everywhere from the military to the politicians, such investigations will always be stonewalled, and that means more cost. It happens in every country.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

es it is good the PM apologised, although to be honest I was not alive for the massacre so I do not see why the apology should be on my behalf.

Bang on.

On the one hand it does indeed give closure to admit past indiscretions. But that should ONLY be done when making it perfectly and totally clear that the overwhelming majority of the armed forces do indeed stand for fair play, extenuating circumstances as there were to an extent on that fateful day.


What more needs to be said: Bloody Sunday - Saville Inquiry: Soldiers who served in Ulster have died in Afghanistan | Mail Online


_____________________________________________________________

Get them home NOW! All the sand in Afghanistan isn't worth a drop of British blood spilled on it: Two more British soldiers killed in Afghanistan, taking death toll to 298 | Mail Online


Nothing compared to previous wars of course, but even that's a travesty when even experts say that terrorism wasn't even cut by a slice in invading the place: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/102da314-76fe-11df-ba79-00144feabdc0.html


Pakistan's New Generation of Terrorists - Council on Foreign Relations - And we're giving the country hosting these animals the contents of our piggy bank?! Madness!!!

 

[alexa]

Bang on.

On the one hand it does indeed give closure to admit past indiscretions.

Murdering innocent civilians, lying about it afterwards and trying to frame innocent civilians comes way above the level of 'indiscretion'. These are serious crimes.

But that should ONLY be done when making it perfectly and totally clear that the overwhelming majority of the armed forces do indeed stand for fair play, extenuating circumstances as there were to an extent on that fateful day.[/I]

No, on that day British Forces acted wrongly. That has taken 38 years to prove.

As for trying to suggest that this incident reflects on anyone who ever served in Northern Ireland that is disgusting. It is you and the Daily Mail who are making that connection.

Cameron made perfectly clear when he began speaking of his respect for our forces.

This was one incident which had to be dealt with. People like yourself who try and minimise such incidents and want them swept under the carpet because to admit to acting wrongly on one occasion is supposed to suggest the army acts wrongly on all occasions are the reason this inquiry has gone on and on until the truth was revealed, costing the British Tax payer the amount it did.

The truth did not come out at the time. This day had two consequences. One was that the IRA got masses of recruits people believing that if they were just going to be shot while they marched peacefully, they may as well fight instead.

and secondly, the British Army learnt to deal with provocative situations in Northern Ireland in a way which in comparison with how other troops around the world deal with such situations can make them and us proud.

 

[Andalublue]

BTW Republic_of_Public, why are you talking about the IRA in this thread?

Because he is incapable of making a post that does not attack liberals, the Labour party or anyone on "the other side". Didn't you note that the only sympathy he expressed was for the soldiers in Ireland at the time? Not a word for the victims or their families.

NO, no prosecutions. It is too long ago and, in any case, sound judgement based on 36 year old testimonies, to the standards of "beyond reasonable doubt" is a very different matter to the use of such old testimonies in a public inquiry. What I would say is that compensation to the direct surviving victims should be given swiftly and generously.

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

Bang on.

Pure unadulterated, unmitigated, bollox.

On the one hand it does indeed give closure to admit past indiscretions. But that should ONLY be done when making it perfectly and totally clear that the overwhelming majority of the armed forces do indeed stand for fair play, extenuating circumstances as there were to an extent on that fateful day.

Closure for the families, yes. But the CPS still have to rule on the legality of the whole thing. You are talking about multiple murder, perjury, impeding justice, cover up.....None of that is trivial.

And BTW, there were no extenuating circumstances. Thats the whole point of the apology.


What more needs to be said: Bloody Sunday - Saville Inquiry: Soldiers who served in Ulster have died in Afghanistan | Mail Online


_____________________________________________________________

Get them home NOW! All the sand in Afghanistan isn't worth a drop of British blood spilled on it: Two more British soldiers killed in Afghanistan, taking death toll to 298 | Mail Online


Nothing compared to previous wars of course, but even that's a travesty when even experts say that terrorism wasn't even cut by a slice in invading the place: FT.com / Asia-Pacific - Kandahar strategy draws criticism


Pakistan's New Generation of Terrorists - Council on Foreign Relations - And we're giving the country hosting these animals the contents of our piggy bank?! Madness!!![/QUOTE]

 

[Alvin T. Grey]

So yes, I do think the PM was right to apologise but do I think the report was worth the price tag? No.

The price tag is high in terms of money. But then again Bloody Sunday cost thousands of lives, 20 years of troubles, and a British Army deployment in Northern Ireland for all of that time.

It was a costly episode indeed.

And that is the context of what we were dealing with here.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

These are serious crimes.

I'm not saying they aren't. The paras grossly over-reacted during a riot. My angle is that in the wrong hands the issue can turn into a blanket anti-British thing, as it does with the IRA, students and Hollywood. Does no harm pointing it out whether it gets replied to or not.

My basic angle: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...eaths-ruled-unlawful-last.html#post1058800603


Though I did indeed neglect to mention a sympathy for the families. However, it's not as if I'm leaving them out without a feeling because I didn't go into a line about sympathy for the more numerous IRA victims' families either, something Andalablue doesn't do. (And considering his close debating mates consider communist death tolls 'irritating' and 'irrelevant' without his chastisement, I'm surprised he brings up consideration for victims at all.)

(Incidentally, that last remark is an example of why I do bash the snootier ones on the Left so much. Such flawed yet pretentious people acting like butter wouldn't melt are such big targets. Though they're not my only ones: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...et-thugs-its-banksters-truly-untouchable.html)


And it's nice to see that despite his 'bollox' remark, Alvin still pasted the rest of my post into his own.

 

[Andalublue]

Though I did indeed neglect to mention a sympathy for the families. However, it's not as if I'm leaving them out without a feeling because I didn't go into a line about sympathy for the more numerous IRA victims' families either, something Andalablue doesn't do. (And considering his close debating mates consider communist death tolls 'irritating' and 'irrelevant' without his chastisement, I'm surprised he brings up consideration for victims at all.)

When I spend a bit of time with a dictionary and a grammar text book and translate that statement into English, I think you are accusing me of being an IRA supporter because I haven't posted on DP expressing my sympathy for the victims of the Provos violence. Three points:

1. You did indeed "leave them without a feeling". You left them without a hint of sympathy while commiserating with the troops who shot their loved ones. Pretty tasteless.
2. I feel sympathy, anger and empathy for the victims of terrorism and state terrorism. I especially feel for the families of the victims of the Troubles on all sides. A good friend was seriously injured in the Manchester IRA bombing of 1996. How would you know my feelings on this subject? I've never posted on the Troubles before contributing to this thread.
3. Perhaps you'd like to provide us with some of your legendary links showing that I have called communist regime atrocities 'irritating' or 'irrelevant'.

Your position on this matter is pretty lame and trying to apportion guilt by association with statements from people I don't even know is pretty low, even by your standards.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

1. Baseless accusation. It's one thing to say I didn't mention them and another to guess why. The topic itself takes the families in only on the periphery and I saw only one post directly considering how the result of the inquiry would be closure for the family. All the rest were about the British Army soldiers, the IRA and the question of guilt and I took that in accordingly.


2. Indeed. We both never mentioned any victims' families in this thread. I think I only posted one comment hitherto then got off the pot.



3. Just struck me as funny that communists are suddenly so het up about human rights and people being shot by soldiers. Wouldn't be that they're the 'wrong' soldiers by any chance? As I say..

considering his close debating mates consider communist death tolls 'irritating' and 'irrelevant' without his chastisement, I'm surprised he brings up consideration for victims at all.

(If you must leap in to criticise, at least read it properly.)


'Irritating': http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...anybody-else-see-oxymoron.html#post1058780060

'Irrelevant': http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...ybody-else-see-oxymoron-3.html#post1058780293


Interesting company! If I had debating mates who reckoned Mussolini was a bloody decent chap without my challenging it, I'm sure I'd've had it remarked upon.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

Well well well!

Bloody Sunday Inquiry: Martin McGuinness WAS armed with machine gun on Bloody Sunday | Mail Online

For all the pious condemnation of the paras from leftists, let's hear some further criticism of the IRA men and their truly huge atrocity dossier. Come on then, let's hear how that kind of thing is even more disgusting, especially as terrorist politicians wouldn't have even a two-minute enquiry into THEIR dark chapters!

When the IRA quickly say sorry for all they've done, albeit couched in military language for 'dignity', we're supposed to just take it as good grace and shut up. But we, on the other hand, had to have TWO inquiries into Bloody Sunday alone and maybe expect prosecutions. No comment on that anomaly Reds?!


Indeed: Bloody Sunday Inquiry: David Cameron admits he finds it 'painful' to sit next to Martin McGuinness 'knowing what he did' | Mail Online

....So why no condemnation and harassment of him on at least the scale of that levelled against Nick Griffin and the BNP Mr. Cameron?!






The IRA's natural instinct is to mix with fellow killers and extremists: Sinn Fein and the IRA's support for tyranny


Can we have an inquiry about that now please, followed by lots more talk of it being 'closure for the families' and typical of 'Republican war machines'?!

________________________________________________________________

Neither Britain’s murderous dirty tricks nor unionist prevarication have succeeded in overturning republican determination to move forward with full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)


'Murderous dirty tricks.....'! You can always trust the Communist Party to print the bald hypocrisy guaranteed to have your head back in laughter!

 

[alexa]

Well well well!

Bloody Sunday Inquiry: Martin McGuinness WAS armed with machine gun on Bloody Sunday | Mail Online

For all the pious condemnation of the paras from leftists, let's hear some further criticism of the IRA men and their truly huge atrocity dossier. Come on then, let's hear how that kind of thing is even more disgusting, especially as terrorist politicians wouldn't have even a two-minute enquiry into THEIR dark chapters!


Indeed: Bloody Sunday Inquiry: David Cameron admits he finds it 'painful' to sit next to Martin McGuinness 'knowing what he did' | Mail Online

....So why no condemnation and harassment of him on at least the scale of that levelled against Nick Griffin and the BNP Mr. Cameron?!






The IRA's natural instinct is to mix with fellow killers and extremists: Sinn Fein and the IRA's support for tyranny


Can we have an inquiry about that now please, followed by lots more talk of it being 'closure for the families' and typical of 'Republican war machines'?!

________________________________________________________________





Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)


'Murderous dirty tricks.....'! You can always trust the Communist Party to print the bald hypocrisy guaranteed to have your head back in laughter!

WELL WELL WELL,

So now we are all aware just how much you had read or listened to about this before your remarks.

The fact that Martin-McGuinness was probably there and armed is well known and makes not one bit of difference. The 14 people who died were innocent civil rights marchers and were unlawfully killed.

Amazing, a twelve year inquiry and because one man was armed ROP believes he can rewrite the report and that the army had the right to kill 14 and shoot and injure several others who they had no reason to suspect of anything and who were totally innocent. I think your sense of justice is very clear now.

It surprises me not one bit you voted BNP.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I think we're going down that road again Alexa! You remember the one!


Ho-hum, time to get out the teacher-red pen and go through it all, putting it straight as we go...


I don't dispute that 14 marchers were shot during the march-turned-riot in circumstances that could have been avoided. I'm not denying the paras went way over the top and that there were bound to be consequences. As I said above, I don't deny any of that.

And I'm not saying I'm re-writing any reports and I don't believe I should keep my mouth shut in case liberals start to screech.

...And I'd have some respect for that last line if you were balanced enough to go on at Andalablue and the other far leftists for voting communist, especially as they do it more than once, all the time and not in anger.


There. Yet more corrections to another interesting outburst. Pity they're not done with much wit.

 

[alexa]

I think we're going down that road again Alexa! You remember the one!


Ho-hum, time to get out the teacher-red pen and go through it all, putting it straight as we go...


I don't dispute that 14 marchers were shot during the march-turned-riot in circumstances that could have been avoided. I'm not denying the paras went way over the top and that there were bound to be consequences. As I said above, I don't deny any of that.

And I'm not saying I'm re-writing any reports and I don't believe I should keep my mouth shut in case liberals start to screech.

...And I'd have some respect for that last line if you were balanced enough to go on at Andalablue and the other far leftists for voting communist, especially as they do it more than once, all the time and not in anger.


There. Yet more corrections to another interesting outburst. Pity they're not done with much wit.

So what then was the point of your little outburst?

 

[Andalublue]

...And I'd have some respect for that last line if you were balanced enough to go on at Andalablue ... for voting communist, especially as they do it more than once, all the time and not in anger.[/I][/COLOR]

I told you how I voted. I voted LibDem. I guess to a BNP supporter LibDems and Communists are the same thing.

 

[gunner]

Just to add a little more to what i suggested earlier in the thread,

"1 Para was a force with a reputation for using excessive physical violence," the report said. Lord Ramsbotham, then military assistant to General Michael Carver, chief of the defence staff, has described the paras as "shock troops", suggesting they were hardly the troops best suited to civilian policing operations".

Bloody Sunday paratroopers defend senior officer | UK news | guardian.co.uk


I would agree with this assumption.

Paul

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

I guess to a BNP supporter LibDems and Communists are the same thing.

Wherever did I get that impression in your case?

I am most interested in analysing the current political situation from a Marxist or neo-Marxist perspective.

View Profile: Khayembii Communique - Debate Politics Forums


And I found a reference to your previous communist voting habit (though not the conversation itself oddly, in which you told me that you were happy to admit your voting tendency when asking about mine): http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/66292-should-we-let-her-immigrate-3.html#post1058569405

 

[Hoplite]

Unlawful my ****ing ass, they shot an old man waving a white flag, they shot people who were unarmed and posing no threat. The soldiers should have received a firing squad for that alone.

****. This makes me want to pick up a rifle and join in. I wish the movement were still going in the same force.

 

[Laila]

Unlawful my ****ing ass, they shot an old man waving a white flag, they shot people who were unarmed and posing no threat. The soldiers should have received a firing squad for that alone.

****. This makes me want to pick up a rifle and join in. I wish the movement were still going in the same force.

Stop being such a drama queen.

You are welcome to attempt to travel back in time a few decades to join in with the terrorists.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

How very 'socialist'!

In terms of the longest list of outrages, I would have thought Hoplite would want to take a gun to Martin 'The Kid' McGuinness!

 

[Hoplite]

Stop being such a drama queen.

Hey, I know the idea of people daring to stand up for themselves is a little foreign, but the fact remains that the British military cut down un-armed people out of vengeance.

You are welcome to attempt to travel back in time a few decades to join in with the terrorists.

If I could, I would. I support the IRA's goals, if not their methodology in recent times.

 

[Laila]

Hey, I know the idea of people daring to stand up for themselves is a little foreign, but the fact remains that the British military cut down un-armed people out of vengeance

If I could, I would. I support the IRA's goals, if not their methodology in recent times.

I find this all so amusing.
Especially Americans who support the IRA and their actions.
Its fine for the Irish to use terrorist tactics and kill innocent civilians but if anyone supports those Islamic terrorists who do the exact same thing, they are evil :roll:
It's good to know you also support Afghans and Iraqis right to "stand up for themselves" considering your military is occupying their country. There is no difference

And who discovered that fact? Who published it? Who owned up to it and admitted a wrong doing? The British did.
Our PM apologised on my behalf and frankly. That should be the end of it, a line should be drawn.

Heck we could have just buried it deep.

 

[Hoplite]

I find this all so amusing.
Especially Americans who support the IRA and their actions.
Its fine for the Irish to use terrorist tactics and kill innocent civilians but if anyone supports those Islamic terrorists who do the exact same thing, they are evil :roll:
It's good to know you also support Afghans and Iraqis right to "stand up for themselves" considering your military is occupying their country. There is no difference

Did you miss the part where I said that I did not endorse the tactics of the vast majority of the modern IRA?

I dont actively support the Afghans, but I do understand why they resist and I take the position that the Afghans are fighting for their country.

Dont make assumptions.

And who discovered that fact? Who published it? Who owned up to it and admitted a wrong doing? The British did.
Our PM apologised on my behalf and frankly. That should be the end of it, a line should be drawn.

30 years after the fact when most of the officers in question are old men. And what's going to happen? An official apology? What good is that? Your military SHOT and KILLED 13 people who were unarmed and nonthreatening. That is not an "our bad", that's a goddamn firing squad for the officers responsible.

Heck we could have just buried it deep.

You did, for 30 years.

 

[Laila]

Did you miss the part where I said that I did not endorse the tactics of the vast majority of the modern IRA?

I dont actively support the Afghans, but I do understand why they resist and I take the position that the Afghans are fighting for their country.

Dont make assumptions.

30 years after the fact when most of the officers in question are old men. And what's going to happen? An official apology? What good is that? Your military SHOT and KILLED 13 people who were unarmed and nonthreatening. That is not an "our bad", that's a goddamn firing squad for the officers responsible.

You did, for 30 years.

So you support the IRA goals but don't support their actions?
The equivalent would be me saying I support Al Qaeda's goals but do not endorse their tactics yes?
Well at least you are somewhat consistent in regards to Afghans.

It's an 'our bad' in my opinion.
I'm not going to pretend I understand nor care about this report. I was not alive for the event nor do I live in an area to care. If this is one of the few mistakes the British Army has done in the last 30 years that it had to dedicate 12 years to get this result, I would see that as a good thing.

Nothing will happen to the solders and I don't see why anything should happen outside of an apology and acknowledgement.

I see it as a strength of my Army to have the ability to own up to mistakes it did on our behalf.

 

[Republic_Of_Public]

As I said, you'll not find Sinn Fein ready to examine their pasts with fine tooth combs, especially as for us a travesty such as Bloody Sunday wasn't the de-facto rule of operation. And how many IRA men were turned in by Gerry Adams then? And how many Leftists gloried in the Good Friday plan which allowed a great many bombers to escape jail?




_________________________________________




The hypocrisy of 'good' and 'bad' terrorism is addressed by (Inter)National Socialist magazine, whose cover picture glories in the Soviet past and whose article romanticises Marx. Hmm, very level-headed.

This attitude affects sections of the left. Those who showed sympathy to organisations (such as the Provisional IRA) using ‘terrorist’ methods in the 1970s now all too often take a completely opposite view of today’s ‘terrorism’. The old ‘terrorist’ organisation, it seems, could be viewed positively since their actions could be justified in the name of a secular, progressive ideology, such as national liberation, anti-imperialism or socialism. Today’s, by contrast, is seen as ‘Islamofascist’ or ‘reactionary anti-capitalist’, and therefore to be condemned as no different from (and possibly worse than) the system it is attacking.

International Socialism: Marxism and terrorism


But I do give them brownie points for some honesty. They appear to question why all terrorism - in inverted commas - shouldn't be seen as 'good' terrorism, fighting Western capitalist autarky, as that's the elephant in the left wing room. And the article even admits to Russian Revolutionary terror, though it also sidelines it, making it appear a bolt-on rather than the mandatory tool it became under Lenin.

(Mind, it loses those points again by saying that Trotsky opposed terrorism and neglecting to mention his part in the Red Terror.)

 

[Hoplite]

It's an 'our bad' in my opinion.

Not in mine. You dont get to gun down 13 unarmed people and just shrug your shoulders after 30 years of inaction.

I'm not going to pretend I understand nor care about this report. I was not alive for the event nor do I live in an area to care. If this is one of the few mistakes the British Army has done in the last 30 years that it had to dedicate 12 years to get this result, I would see that as a good thing.

Yes, we've been pissed off since 1800 for ONE incident of straight up, cold blooded, bare-assed murder.

Nothing will happen to the solders and I don't see why anything should happen outside of an apology and acknowledgement.

"Im sorry I shot 13 innocent people"

We send people to the ****ing chair for less.

I see it as a strength of my Army to have the ability to own up to mistakes it did on our behalf.

Strength of your army to shoot down unarmed kids and old men.