Ban on burqas receives strong public support in France

[Degreez]

Everybody know that, Degreez?

Why not send along some evidence then that the Americans were hoping for that? And if the US gives aid to a country, that does not mean that the Russians are going to invade.

Or are you saying that the Russians were so stupid they fell right into the US trap?

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The anti-communist rebels garnered support from the United States. As stated by the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and current US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, in his memoirs From the Shadows, the US intelligence services began to aid the rebel factions in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet deployment. On July 3, 1979, US President Jimmy Carter signed an executive order authorizing the CIA to conduct covert propaganda operations against the communist regime.


Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated: "According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, December 24, 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise." Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting US policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap ... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."

Additionally, on July 3, 1979, Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan. As a part of the Central Intelligence Agency program called Operation Cyclone, led by their elite Special Activities Division, which included the massive arming of Afghanistan's mujahideen.

INTERVIEW WITH DR ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI-(13/6/97)

 

[alexa]

I wore a full burka for a day once just to see what it was like. It was hot and stuffy. You have to be nimble enough to lift the bottom a bit so that you don't trip on the material, yet you can't expose your ankles. Going to the bathroom is a hassle. Eating and/or drinking on the go is impossible. You have zilch peripheral vision... curbs are like land-mines and crossing a busy city street without getting run over is a challenge. Identity is nonexistent. All femininity is stripped away. In essence, you are a moving bag of fabric. A full-body chastity belt. I found it to be a very unpleasant experience.

Yes, the woman who wore the burka for a week who I mentioned found it the same. However she did also find that it was very important for some people to wear it and that was a totally free choice.

The memory of hair shirts and Christians came to mind.

My own belief is that this choice is from a very small section of the Muslim community and will probably die out when things like the all out Muslim hate propaganda we get from some places is sorted.

Given that, my choice would be to live and let live while at the same time dealing with any issues which are in the way in the same way as we do with everyone else, rather than demonising and separating a part of our community. I am sure it will in my country, be resolved in a sane way.

 

[Grant]

I wore a full burka for a day once just to see what it was like. It was hot and stuffy. You have to be nimble enough to lift the bottom a bit so that you don't trip on the material, yet you can't expose your ankles. Going to the bathroom is a hassle. Eating and/or drinking on the go is impossible. You have zilch peripheral vision... curbs are like land-mines and crossing a busy city street without getting run over is a challenge. Identity is nonexistent. All femininity is stripped away. In essence, you are a moving bag of fabric. A full-body chastity belt. I found it to be a very unpleasant experience.

Some women who have refused to wear thr burka have had unpleasant experiences also, Tashah.

Interesting insight.

 

[Arcana XV]

Burqa-clad bank robbers stage hold-up

Two burqa-wearing bank robbers have held up a post office near Paris, using a handgun concealed beneath an Islamic-style full veil, court officials said.

Staff let the pair through the security double doors of the banking branch of the postal office on Saturday, believing them to be veil-wearing Muslim women, before they flipped back their head coverings and pulled out a gun, officials said.

They made off with 4,500 euros ($A7,112) seized from the staff and customers of the branch in Athis Mons, just south of Paris, according to the online edition of Le Parisien newspaper.

Police have opened an investigation.

Well, now, isn't that the most convenient thing you've ever seen? :lol::lol:

 

[Grant]

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The anti-communist rebels garnered support from the United States. As stated by the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and current US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, in his memoirs From the Shadows, the US intelligence services began to aid the rebel factions in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet deployment. On July 3, 1979, US President Jimmy Carter signed an executive order authorizing the CIA to conduct covert propaganda operations against the communist regime.


Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated: "According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, December 24, 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise." Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting US policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap ... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."

Additionally, on July 3, 1979, Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan. As a part of the Central Intelligence Agency program called Operation Cyclone, led by their elite Special Activities Division, which included the massive arming of Afghanistan's mujahideen.

INTERVIEW WITH DR ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI-(13/6/97)

That is no evidence that the Americans were "hoping" for anything, Degreez.

 

[Grant]

Burqa-clad bank robbers stage hold-up



Well, now, isn't that the most convenient thing you've ever seen? :lol::lol:

And it's not the first time, either!

 

[Arcana XV]

And it's not the first time, either!

If you mean it's not the first time someone hides their face to commit armed robbery, then no, definitely not the first time. :lol::lol:

 

[alexa]

How so?

watch it and then you will know.

The US has been trying to ban burkas in France?

Has it, I didn't know that.

Right. It obviously has nothing to do with religion. Now it is only for the subjugation of women.

If that was the case then clearly no women would choose to wear them.

I have heard that phrase but the only time I have ever heard of it being used as a successful defense in court was when Muslims were involved. If you have any evidence that this defense was used successfully in any courts in the western democracies I'd like you to share it with me please.

It has been a classic excuse made. I am not going to search the internet for such well known material...and yes, such defence is frequently successful in Western courts. Rape is extremely difficult to prove which is the reason that even now so few rape cases reach court and so few rapists reach prison.

Well founded? No, it is not exclusive to Muslims but it is not written into law in the western democracies that women are second class citizens, nor is it accepted by contemporary Christians or Jews.

I imagine nor is it accepted by contemporary Muslims or contemporary anyone else. The Law in France is French law. Did you not know that?

The practice is not well known within the Muslim community? That's simply not true, Alexa.

I did not say that. I said it was not Islam.

"They are found among very poor uneducated people who have nothing at all to feel proud about".

That is also incorrect. The practice is committed by all levels of Muslim society, and is well documented. It is the poverty of spirituality and humanity that cause this aberrant behaviour.

That same poverty of spirituality and humanity is the reason for most of the other deaths by murder in the home. You will need to provide evidence that this is widespread in well off, educated Muslims living in Western countries.

No, they are not.

yes they are

No, it is not.

yes it is

A basic human right? A natural impulse? An attempt to do right where wrong exists?

What on earth are you talking about? I have seen zero in anything which you have written which is about righting any wrongs or protecting human rights.

So by helping the Afghanistan people defend their country against the Russian invaders

and you really believe that that is what the US were doing?

:2rofll:

the United States is responsible for Islamic crazies attacking them?

You are right there. By refusing to help genuine trusted Afghan freedom fighters like Abdul Haq and instead despite him warning the US repeatedly about their nasty crazy barbaric ways, supporting Arab fighters who were already believing that the way to set the world straight was to have Islamic Law and had been made more crazy by torture in prison but were let out of those jails to fight in Afghanistan - by supporting, financing and training them, yes, without any question the US has a major responsibility not only towards what has happened in Afghanistan but without question for the 'Islamic crazies' you speak of because they are the very same people.

Now had the US had simply an interest in helping Afghanistan it would not have done this but would instead have helped genuine freedom fighters and Afghanistan would now be enjoying a peaceful democracy and the rest of us, including Arab countries would have been spared their excesses.

Did you know that the Americans also helped the French and the French didn't send send any fanatics over to the United States to murder innocent people? That incredible idea seems to be restricted to Muslims.

irrelevant :spin:

 

[Degreez]

Soviet war in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That is no evidence that the Americans were "hoping" for anything, Degreez.

Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting US policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention."

CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

Don't worry, take all the time you need to create some more historical revisionism.

 

[Grant]

"It has been a classic excuse made. I am not going to search the Internet for such well known material...and yes, such defense is frequently successful in Western courts. Rape is extremely difficult to prove which is the reason that even now so few rape cases reach court and so few rapists reach prison".

I don't mind searching the Internet for facts. You should try it some time.

FrontPage Magazine - Western Muslims' Racist Rape Spree


"The Law in France is French law. Did you not know that?"

Is that another example Islamic humour, Alexa?

"I did not say that. I said it was not Islam".

Right. When people point out the craziness mentioned in the Koran they say it is not real Islam. When Muslims behave badly it is not real Islam. It's clear that Islam is not a user friendly religion nor conducive to rational thought. This is why it lends itself to the easy acceptance of violence against non-Muslims, and frequently other Muslims.

"That same poverty of spirituality and humanity is the reason for most of the other deaths by murder in the home. You will need to provide evidence that this is widespread in well off, educated Muslims living in Western countries".

No problem.

Muslim TV Exec beheading & honor killing suspect: I was abused by my wife

'Honor killings' in USA raise concerns - USATODAY.com

"What on earth are you talking about? I have seen zero in anything which you have written which is about righting any wrongs or protecting human rights".

So you really haven't seen my mentions of the subjugation of women in the Islamic community? There is no need to practice self censorship here, Alexa. Islamic law is not in effect yet.

"and you really believe that that is what the US were doing?"

Show me otherwise.

"By refusing to help genuine trusted Afghan freedom fighters like Abdul Haq and instead despite him warning the US repeatedly about their nasty crazy barbaric ways",

Alexa, from a western point of view one Muslim is pretty much like the next. They all have the same belief system stemming from the same Koran.

"Arab fighters who were already believing that the way to set the world straight was to have Islamic Law and had been made more crazy by torture in prison but were let out of those jails to fight in Afghanistan"

More crazy? All these guys are crazier than bed bugs and, again, all have the same educational system based on the Koran.

"by supporting, financing and training them, yes, without any question the US has a major responsibility not only toward what has happened in Afghanistan but without question for the 'Islamic crazies' you speak of because they are the very same people".

And you expect others to understand the Good Islamists from the Bad Islamists? If there are any good Islamists they should be discarding the radicals from their midst, but that is not happening. Instead they blame others for the problems they've created, and this whining continues unabated.

"Now had the US had simply an interest in helping Afghanistan it would not have done this but would instead have helped genuine freedom fighters"

And how do you propose they should do this? Have them fill out psychological questionnaires? Look at ink blots? Hand in letters of reference?

"Afghanistan would now be enjoying a peaceful democracy and the rest of us, including Arab countries would have been spared their excesses".

Excesses? Like murdering thousands of innocent men, women and children? Excesses??? Good grief!

So now more bad Muslims are murdering innocent people on airplanes, buses, in discos, supermarkets, hotels, police stations, trains, at bus stops, in houses of worship, and so on.

And, in true Muslim fashion, it's all the fault of the Americans! You fit in well in Western Europe.

Intellectual Censorship in Islam: A Matter of Life and Death

 

[Grant]

CRG -- The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan


Don't worry, take all the time you need to create some more historical revisionism.

And you can see that Brzezinski, and Carter, were two of the stupidest people ever to gain positions of power, at least in the United States.

As soon as the elections rolled around Carter was roundly turfed out of office by the American people.

So when you say the "Americans were hoping for an invasion" you really mean Brzezinski and Carter, two Americans overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate.

When you say "Americans" it makes an entire nation vulnerable for the decisions these guys made. That allows Muslims everywhere to target innocent people because all "Americans" are held culpable.

Do you feel that's right?

 

[Grant]

Yes, the woman who wore the burka for a week who I mentioned found it the same. However she did also find that it was very important for some people to wear it and that was a totally free choice.

The memory of hair shirts and Christians came to mind.

My own belief is that this choice is from a very small section of the Muslim community and will probably die out when things like the all out Muslim hate propaganda we get from some places is sorted.

Given that, my choice would be to live and let live while at the same time dealing with any issues which are in the way in the same way as we do with everyone else, rather than demonising and separating a part of our community. I am sure it will in my country, be resolved in a sane way.

"My own belief is that this choice is from a very small section of the Muslim community and will probably die out when things like the all out Muslim hate propaganda we get from some places is sorted".

It's true there is a great deal of Muslim hate propaganda, Alexa, and it's coming from Islamic preachers and web sites from all over the world. What do you think the west can do to control these under-educated fanatics?

How would you end Muslim propganda and terrorism, encourage them to get along in the broader community, while introducing Muslims to a more live and let live world?

 

[Degreez]

And you can see that Brzezinski, and Carter, were two of the stupidest people ever to gain positions of power, at least in the United States.

As soon as the elections rolled around Carter was roundly turfed out of office by the American people.

So when you say the "Americans were hoping for an invasion" you really mean Brzezinski and Carter, two Americans overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate.

When you say "Americans" it makes an entire nation vulnerable for the decisions these guys made. That allows Muslims everywhere to target innocent people because all "Americans" are held culpable.

Do you feel that's right?

Will it make you feel better if I used the phrase "the government of America"?

And I never said "Americans were hoping for an invasion". I clearly posted "the US was hoping for Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan". In fact, you were the one who said "Americans". So instead of playing an idiotic semantics game, how about debating honestly?

 

[alexa]

"It has been a classic excuse made. I am not going to search the Internet for such well known material...and yes, such defense is frequently successful in Western courts. Rape is extremely difficult to prove which is the reason that even now so few rape cases reach court and so few rapists reach prison".

I don't mind searching the Internet for facts. You should try it some time.

FrontPage Magazine - Western Muslims' Racist Rape Spree


"The Law in France is French law. Did you not know that?"

Is that another example Islamic humour, Alexa?

"I did not say that. I said it was not Islam".

Right. When people point out the craziness mentioned in the Koran they say it is not real Islam. When Muslims behave badly it is not real Islam. It's clear that Islam is not a user friendly religion nor conducive to rational thought. This is why it lends itself to the easy acceptance of violence against non-Muslims, and frequently other Muslims.

"That same poverty of spirituality and humanity is the reason for most of the other deaths by murder in the home. You will need to provide evidence that this is widespread in well off, educated Muslims living in Western countries".

No problem.

Muslim TV Exec beheading & honor killing suspect: I was abused by my wife

'Honor killings' in USA raise concerns - USATODAY.com

"What on earth are you talking about? I have seen zero in anything which you have written which is about righting any wrongs or protecting human rights".

So you really haven't seen my mentions of the subjugation of women in the Islamic community? There is no need to practice self censorship here, Alexa. Islamic law is not in effect yet.

"and you really believe that that is what the US were doing?"

Show me otherwise.

"By refusing to help genuine trusted Afghan freedom fighters like Abdul Haq and instead despite him warning the US repeatedly about their nasty crazy barbaric ways",

Alexa, from a western point of view one Muslim is pretty much like the next. They all have the same belief system stemming from the same Koran.

"Arab fighters who were already believing that the way to set the world straight was to have Islamic Law and had been made more crazy by torture in prison but were let out of those jails to fight in Afghanistan"

More crazy? All these guys are crazier than bed bugs and, again, all have the same educational system based on the Koran.

"by supporting, financing and training them, yes, without any question the US has a major responsibility not only toward what has happened in Afghanistan but without question for the 'Islamic crazies' you speak of because they are the very same people".

And you expect others to understand the Good Islamists from the Bad Islamists? If there are any good Islamists they should be discarding the radicals from their midst, but that is not happening. Instead they blame others for the problems they've created, and this whining continues unabated.

"Now had the US had simply an interest in helping Afghanistan it would not have done this but would instead have helped genuine freedom fighters"

And how do you propose they should do this? Have them fill out psychological questionnaires? Look at ink blots? Hand in letters of reference?

"Afghanistan would now be enjoying a peaceful democracy and the rest of us, including Arab countries would have been spared their excesses".

Excesses? Like murdering thousands of innocent men, women and children? Excesses??? Good grief!

So now more bad Muslims are murdering innocent people on airplanes, buses, in discos, supermarkets, hotels, police stations, trains, at bus stops, in houses of worship, and so on.

And, in true Muslim fashion, it's all the fault of the Americans! You fit in well in Western Europe.

Intellectual Censorship in Islam: A Matter of Life and Death

You are becoming more and more ridiculous and dishonest in your replies. You choose to put interpretations on things which are ridiculous.

You seem to have no interest for an honest debate.

I have too much going on in my life for someone so stuck in their little land of bias, they are unable to open the window and look outside. I leave you to your day dreams.

 

[Arcana XV]

It's true there is a great deal of Muslim hate propaganda, Alexa, and it's coming from Islamic preachers and web sites from all over the world. What do you think the west can do to control these under-educated fanatics?

How would you end Muslim propganda and terrorism, encourage them to get along in the broader community, while introducing Muslims to a more live and let live world?

Your first mistake is to assume that these people are under-educated. The opposite is true. The leaders of these Muslim movements are often very highly educated, from Sayyid Qutb back in the 50s all the way to the present day major figures like Osama Bin Laden. While the ones who actually carry out terrorist attacks do not always have a high education, most of the ones involved in 9/11 were highly educated professionals. Underestimating their intellectual abilities is extremely short-sighted.

As for your question on how to end Muslim propaganda:

The question is not how to end it, but how to make it as harmless as neo-Nazi propaganda is today. A lot of bark with zero bite.

Since we find ourselves in a thread discussing France, I suggest you take a more in depth look at this country's Muslim demographics which you don't seem to be too familiar with. France has one of the most secular Muslim populations in the whole of Europe. Despite the many social problems in the more segregated suburbs and no-go zones; the high unemployment plaguing young Muslim men and the racism still very much present in French society, why is it that Muslim extremists are having such difficulty recruiting in France? The "hate propaganda" doesn't seem to have much effect there.

Me thinks the country is doing something right and I'm going to venture that the strictly secular education in place in France, coupled with French society's expectations that all new-comers must quietly and quickly integrate, learn the local language and make French values their own has a lot to do with it.

 

[Grant]

Will it make you feel better if I used the phrase "the government of America"?

And I never said "Americans were hoping for an invasion". I clearly posted "the US was hoping for Soviet military intervention in Afghanistan". In fact, you were the one who said "Americans". So instead of playing an idiotic semantics game, how about debating honestly?

OK, The US was hoping for an invasion. But in fact it was Carter and Brzezinski, not "the US". And while I said "Americans" what is really the difference? It was the Carter administration, and you should be specific as to who you are talking about here. Why not call it the Carter Administration? Using terms like "The US" or "Americans" suggests that all Americans support a particular government policy when that is certainly not the case.

All this is important because you now have Muslims trying to kill Americans,(ie citizens of the US) and many other innocent people, because of something the Carter Administration may have done. These are not overly intelligent people so when you say "The US committed evil" that justifies further hatred against Americans, not those who were actually responsible.

Its just as easy to condemn all Muslims for the atrocities they've committed, and continue to justify, but we don't do that. We don't murder innocent Muslims, or at least we try our best not to. Instead we are trying to bring them into the modern world through greater educational opportunities, etc.

We recognize that some government leaders will make mistakes and we shouldn't continue to murder Innocent people as a result. particularly 30 years after the fact.

And as far as "semantics" are concerned, words have meanings and the English language has many to choose from. Certainly enough that you can be more exact in who you are trying to put the blame on for any real or imagined wrongdoings.

And, by the way, I wouldn't''t believe everything Brzezinski says. The man. like Carter, was totally out of his depth.

 

[Gardener]

As for your question on how to end Muslim propaganda:

The question is not how to end it, but how to make it as harmless as neo-Nazi propaganda is today. A lot of bark with zero bite.

.

The first step is to UNDERSTAND it and especially to understand its roots, which are influenced heavily by true Nazi ideology, that introduced via the cooperation between Arabs and Nazis in the time leading up to and including WW2. The Nazis had promised The Mufti of Jerusalem that middle eastern Jewry would be systematically exterminated for them, and the nature of the desire hasn't changed much since. Muslims in general and Arabs in particular are OVERWHELMINGLY antisemitic -- so much so that it is almost a given, and one of the reasons for this is the importation of Nazi ideology that mated with existing bias against Jews to create a new hybrid strain of antisemitism.

Also key to understanding is the realization that this is an extreme CONSERVATIVE movement, despite all the numbskull leftist knee jerk reactionaries who defend it. The Islamist movement is antithetical to humanist values, and is not only conservative, but the social mores it seeks to conserve are derived from patriarchal nomads living nearly a millenium and a half ago.

 

[Arcana XV]

The first step is to UNDERSTAND it and especially to understand its roots, which are influenced heavily by true Nazi ideology, that introduced via the cooperation between Arabs and Nazis in the time leading up to and including WW2. The Nazis had promised The Mufti of Jerusalem that middle eastern Jewry would be systematically exterminated for them, and the nature of the desire hasn't changed much since. Muslims in general and Arabs in particular are OVERWHELMINGLY antisemitic -- so much so that it is almost a given, and one of the reasons for this is the importation of Nazi ideology that mated with existing bias against Jews to create a new hybrid strain of antisemitism.

Also key to understanding is the realization that this is an extreme CONSERVATIVE movement, despite all the numbskull leftist knee jerk reactionaries who defend it. The Islamist movement is antithetical to humanist values, and is not only conservative, but the social mores it seeks to conserve are derived from patriarchal nomads living nearly a millenium and a half ago.

I have no argument with any of that. Understanding it, however, does not tell you how to stop its spread and influence among European Muslim populations. For some reason, some countries are much more immune to the spread of these ideologies than others. France is one. Switzerland is another. One should look at what they're doing right.

 

[Grant]

Your first mistake is to assume that these people are under-educated. The opposite is true. The leaders of these Muslim movements are often very highly educated, from Sayyid Qutb back in the 50s all the way to the present day major figures like Osama Bin Laden. While the ones who actually carry out terrorist attacks do not always have a high education, most of the ones involved in 9/11 were highly educated professionals. Underestimating their intellectual abilities is extremely short-sighted.

As for your question on how to end Muslim propaganda:

The question is not how to end it, but how to make it as harmless as neo-Nazi propaganda is today. A lot of bark with zero bite.

Since we find ourselves in a thread discussing France, I suggest you take a more in depth look at this country's Muslim demographics which you don't seem to be too familiar with. France has one of the most secular Muslim populations in the whole of Europe. Despite the many social problems in the more segregated suburbs and no-go zones; the high unemployment plaguing young Muslim men and the racism still very much present in French society, why is it that Muslim extremists are having such difficulty recruiting in France? The "hate propaganda" doesn't seem to have much effect there.

Me thinks the country is doing something right and I'm going to venture that the strictly secular education in place in France, coupled with French society's expectations that all new-comers must quietly and quickly integrate, learn the local language and make French values their own has a lot to do with it.

Arcana, these people are under educated in the sense that they often know little outside the Koran or much of other cultures. We can call them mis-educated or under educated but people with broad editions, familiar with other cu lures, philosophies, politics, etc. are going to set out to murder innocent people. Simply because they can talk and walk upright does not make them educated.

I am somewhat familiar with what's going on in France, including the torching of cars, "the segregated suburbs and no-go zones; the high unemployment plaguing young Muslim men and the racism still very much present in French society"

Who is being the more racist in French society? The Muslims or the indigenous French?

"why is it that Muslim extremists are having such difficulty recruiting in France? The "hate propaganda" doesn't seem to have much effect there".

Recruiting Muslims to do what? To what purpose and end?

"Me thinks the country is doing something right and I'm going to venture that the strictly secular education in place in France, coupled with French society's expectations that all new-comers must quietly and quickly integrate, learn the local language and make French values their own has a lot to do with it".

I agree, and that's why i would favour the banning of the burka. It has no religious significance and only highlights the difference between "us" and "them". Local customs and laws must be followed as much as possible in order that society meld together as one, with mutual respect on everyone's side.

 

[Grant]

The first step is to UNDERSTAND it and especially to understand its roots, which are influenced heavily by true Nazi ideology, that introduced via the cooperation between Arabs and Nazis in the time leading up to and including WW2. The Nazis had promised The Mufti of Jerusalem that middle eastern Jewry would be systematically exterminated for them, and the nature of the desire hasn't changed much since. Muslims in general and Arabs in particular are OVERWHELMINGLY antisemitic -- so much so that it is almost a given, and one of the reasons for this is the importation of Nazi ideology that mated with existing bias against Jews to create a new hybrid strain of antisemitism.

Also key to understanding is the realization that this is an extreme CONSERVATIVE movement, despite all the numbskull leftist knee jerk reactionaries who defend it. The Islamist movement is antithetical to humanist values, and is not only conservative, but the social mores it seeks to conserve are derived from patriarchal nomads living nearly a millenium and a half ago.


Until peopel learn to recogni

"The first step is to UNDERSTAND it and especially to understand its roots, which are influenced heavily by true Nazi ideology, that introduced via the cooperation between Arabs and Nazis in the time leading up to and including WW2".

But how do you tell that to Muslims without them responding angrily?

Say that and you'll alienate them even further as they are so often on the defensive about their history, while blaming everyone but themselves for the violence and terrorism that has marked our times.

 

[Apocalypse]

France is one. Switzerland is another. One should look at what they're doing right.

One bans minarets and the other bans burqas.

 

[Gardener]

I have no argument with any of that. Understanding it, however, does not tell you how to stop its spread and influence among European Muslim populations. For some reason, some countries are much more immune to the spread of these ideologies than others. France is one. Switzerland is another. One should look at what they're doing right.

If I were to compare France and Switzerland to, say, Sweden and the U.K. (which are about the worst IMO) the difference to me lies in the confidence the native Europeans have as to standing up for their way of life. The key to eradicating Islamism in Europe lies in education, assimilation and standing up for secular humanist values. Both the U.K. and Sweden have abandoned secular humanism in favor of a phobia-driven form of cultural self-loathing where the mere act of being British or Swedish is considered almost criminal, somehow. Along with this abandonment of principles, the native Mulsim populations are ghettoized and the most extreme elements within are accomidated to the extreme. It's a sure recipe for disaster, and until the sheep actually learn their left from their right, I don't expect things to change.

 

[Arcana XV]

Arcana, these people are under educated in the sense that they often know little outside the Koran or much of other cultures. We can call them mis-educated or under educated but people with broad editions, familiar with other cu lures, philosophies, politics, etc. are going to set out to murder innocent people. Simply because they can talk and walk upright does not make them educated.

I think you're wrong. Take the two people I mentioned in my post, Sayyid Qutb and Osama Bin Laden. Both were very familiar with Western culture and both strongly rejected it in the end.

I am somewhat familiar with what's going on in France, including the torching of cars, "the segregated suburbs and no-go zones; the high unemployment plaguing young Muslim men and the racism still very much present in French society"

Who is being the more racist in French society? The Muslims or the indigenous French?

I'd say the indigenous French are being more racist. Which is not to say that other demographics aren't racist. But you asked who was the most racist and in my opinion, it's the native French. Not just against Muslims, but everyone who isn't a native. Sorry, my French friends, but you know this is true.

"why is it that Muslim extremists are having such difficulty recruiting in France? The "hate propaganda" doesn't seem to have much effect there".

Recruiting Muslims to do what? To what purpose and end?

International terrorism. Isn't that what you were talking about?

"Me thinks the country is doing something right and I'm going to venture that the strictly secular education in place in France, coupled with French society's expectations that all new-comers must quietly and quickly integrate, learn the local language and make French values their own has a lot to do with it".

I agree, and that's why i would favour the banning of the burka. It has no religious significance and only highlights the difference between "us" and "them". Local customs and laws must be followed as much as possible in order that society meld together as one, with mutual respect on everyone's side.

I don't agree with the banning of any religious garb outside government buildings and public schools. The burka is not wide spread enough to demand a specific law, nor do I believe it will ever be wide-spread enough in a country such as France. Mutual respect goes both ways. A complete ban of full veils in all public areas would fly in the face of mutual respect.

 

[Arcana XV]

One bans minarets and the other bans burqas.

And I think both are wrong and over-reacting. I don't believe it's necessary to take things this far. Neither the minarets in Switzerland, nor the burkas in France are a significant problem. They're just symbols of another culture that happens to be very unpopular at the moment.

These actions are an indication of how strongly the natives want to preserve their ideals and values. I think it's possible to do that without resorting to these extreme measures. The minaret issue could have been handled very easily by sticking to the very strict zoning laws in Switzerland. As for the burka, as long as it's kept out of the secular government buildings and the public schools, I see no valid reason to ban it elsewhere. The number of people wearing it is just too insignificant to waste all this time and effort discussing it.

 

[Arcana XV]

If I were to compare France and Switzerland to, say, Sweden and the U.K. (which are about the worst IMO) the difference to me lies in the confidence the native Europeans have as to standing up for their way of life. The key to eradicating Islamism in Europe lies in education, assimilation and standing up for secular humanist values. Both the U.K. and Sweden have abandoned secular humanism in favor of a phobia-driven form of cultural self-loathing where the mere act of being British or Swedish is considered almost criminal, somehow. Along with this abandonment of principles, the native Mulsim populations are ghettoized and the most extreme elements within are accomidated to the extreme. It's a sure recipe for disaster, and until the sheep actually learn their left from their right, I don't expect things to change.

Maybe you're right. It seems that the more accommodating a country is to outsiders and the least pressure it puts on newcomers to assimilate, the more they are at risk of harboring extremists.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the UK and Sweden are prone to some kind of cultural self-loathing, tho. They have their own values and they're trying to stick to them. Forcing new-comers into the local cultural mold is not part of those values. They have a different approach to multi-culturalism that seemed to work just fine until now. Maybe it just needs a little tweaking to deal with the more demanding new elements.