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background checks for ALL firearm sales will reduce the murder rate

TD: Our forefathers seen the people as the militia. As a matter of fact I believe that Thomas Jefferson actually frowned on a militia that would be formed by the Federal government.
Wrong. The militia were all able bodied males(at that time 17-45) capable of military service, thus, able to be called to muster should a need arise. The "people" in the second clause means the citizens, the "Militia" is a very specific segment.
 
So that wouldn't bother you if you sold a gun to a person that had committed a felony and harmed or kill someone with that gun?

Yeah that is why I only sell to

1) dealers

2) people who have a valid CCW license

3) attorneys I know (if an attorney has a felony he or she is immediately disbarred and we who are licensed are notified)

4) family members

I also know that people who deal in narcotics and stolen property don't care
 
1) That is in the subordinate clause, the only reading of that came from the anti constitution asshole Woodrow Wilson and has been adopted by the progressives and gun control groups ever since.
2) The subordinate clause was only to be a singular reason among many to set up the reasoning behind prohibition of infringement in the independent(2nd) clause, which is the only complete sentence, thus it is the only truly relevant thought in the second.
3) Well regulated does not open the door for gun control. The word then meant "in working order" which meant that when militia were to be called to muster they were to have minimum privately owned weaponry and stocks, according to a "regulated" list, and they were to drill in order to be "regulated" or "in working order".
4) The founders writings, or better known as the people who wrote the law, disagree with every last bit of the Wilsonian interpretation.
Think what you want LA, but they're (guns) being regulated right now at this very moment. (People get permits to carry them; etc; ) :shrug:
 
Think what you want LA, but they're (guns) being regulated right now at this very moment. (People get permits to carry them; etc; ) :shrug:

We had separate but equal schools too, but that got changed as well. ;)
 
You have been edified on what registration leads to. Since your party supports registration and in many cases confiscation, it is fun watching you pretend that registration has some value to a free society

We recall your blather that some cops have told you that registration can help solve crimes but when pressed, you couldn't find any support whatsoever for such a BS claim. Some cops are dishonest assholes and think only cops should have guns and will say anything to justify that but none of them can come up with any evidence that registration has led to crime decreases
1) Any officer who would stop at the gun owner to "solve" a murder is a lazy idiot, it's not a solve all tool, it's a starting point. I would ask that any officer thinking registration is an effective tool be fired for incompetence. 2) The people who claim registration isn't a lead to confiscation are welcome to find one country where there wasn't some form of involuntary confiscation to make their case, in my years of studying this subject I haven't found one.
 
Think what you want LA, but they're (guns) being regulated right now at this very moment. (People get permits to carry them; etc; ) :shrug:
Yeah, so it's okay to break the law as long as it's something you agree with. Noted.
 
1) Any officer who would stop at the gun owner to "solve" a murder is a lazy idiot, it's not a solve all tool, it's a starting point. I would ask that any officer thinking registration is an effective tool be fired for incompetence. 2) The people who claim registration isn't a lead to confiscation are welcome to find one country where there wasn't some form of involuntary confiscation to make their case, in my years of studying this subject I haven't found one.

the Island "nation state" of Hawaii has gun registration and guess what-there is no evidence that registration has any use in solving crimes
 
Odd that the SCOTUS disagrees with you. The bill of rights is not about what the federal gov't can do, its about what it cannot do. The founding fathers were in agreement on that point as well.

Bill of Rights Institute: Bill of Rights

Mission & Vision

Welcome to the Bill of Rights Institute. Established in 1999, the Institute is a 501(c)(3) not for profit charity focused on providing educational resources on America’s Founding documents and principles for teachers and students of American History and Civics. Mission

The missionof the Bill of Rights Institute is to educate young people about the words and ideas of America’s Founders, the liberties guaranteed in our Founding documents, and how our Founding principles continue to affect and shape a free society. It is the goal of the Institute to help the next generation understand the freedom and opportunity the Constitution offers.
Vision

The visionof the Institute is to create a citizenry that has the knowledge, values, dispositions, and skills to exercise the rights and responsibilities needed to maintain a free society.
What these folks have to say and a dollar-two-eighty-three can buy you a cup of coffee. ;)
 
Yeah that is why I only sell to

1) dealers

2) people who have a valid CCW license

3) attorneys I know (if an attorney has a felony he or she is immediately disbarred and we who are licensed are notified)

4) family members

I also know that people who deal in narcotics and stolen property don't care
Yeah, but not everyone is as conscientious as you are. :shrug:
 
Wrong. The militia were all able bodied males(at that time 17-45) capable of military service, thus, able to be called to muster should a need arise. The "people" in the second clause means the citizens, the "Militia" is a very specific segment.
I don't know. I disagree. :shrug:
 
Yeah, but not everyone is as conscientious as you are. :shrug:

yeah and those who sell dope, stolen property and associate with felons aren't going to do a background check and there is no way to enforce it against them
 
Yeah, so it's okay to break the law as long as it's something you agree with. Noted.
It's not being broke because no one has challenged it as being broke and taken it to SCOTUS - at least not yet. :shrug:
 
yeah and those who sell dope, stolen property and associate with felons aren't going to do a background check and there is no way to enforce it against them

TD: you know as well as me there are people in society that are going to do what they want to do.
 
We had separate but equal schools too, but that got changed as well. ;)
It's kind of funny to watch people give SCOTUS opinions weight when they get their way, rather than admitting that at least the court opened up an avenue to what they wanted. SCOTUS has about as flawed a history as the other two branches, and with idiots like Ginsberg, Kagen, Sotomayor, and Roberts their opinions are about as useful as a beer fart in an elevator. People forget about "Separate but equal" the "commerce clause" decision, and even the "Penalty is actually a tax even though it's not a tax because they called it a tax after writing that it's a penalty" decisions. And it's equally funny that the same people who hated and disagreed with "Citizen's United" have no problems with faulty second amendment decisions. Got to love the twisting those people engage in.
 
:lamo :doh But you are to be taken more seriously? :roll:
In the end you could say that about me and anyone else in the forum too. :shrug:
 
I don't know. I disagree. :shrug:
Well, you can be wrong all you like. The founders specifically wrote about where they were coming from, and under the constitution the militia was the EXACT definition I gave you.
 
TD: you know as well as me there are people in society that are going to do what they want to do.

so why do you support moronic laws that only will harass honest people and won't do a thing to stop criminals?
 
It's not being broke because no one has challenged it as being broke and taken it to SCOTUS - at least not yet. :shrug:
Bull****, the constitution is the supreme law of the land, the congress broke it with the NFA and GCA, and the court upheld the lawbreaking. It's no different from an officer enabling a bank robbery by putting his gun away, his hand out, and whistling "Ole' Susanna" while the robbers bolt for safety.
 
Oh where to start.
Mostly criminal on criminal, very few actual victimizations, and many of those are people who knew the murderer.
What is your point? It is OK if you are killed by someone you know?
You can't prevent a murder unless you personally are willing to meet that force with counter force, no law will ever convince a person intent on murder from abstaining from the act.
If you prevent criminals from getting guns, then their crimes would be less lethal.
If I want to sell private property it's a right, if I want to sell business property as a firearms dealer it can be regulated under business law.
Is selling you "private cigarettes" to minors a right? In the same fashion, you do not have a right to sell guns to felons.
No issue here. No matter how many people repeat it. They can get them from the same people they buy other black market items too, what's your point? State's have more rights than the federal, that's how it is supposed to work.
But where does the black market get their guns from? The laws that I propose would reduce the size of the black market, and less criminals would get their hands on guns.
Not true. Some may have been stolen, others may have come from ports and smuggled in past customs, like drugs, the porous borders also are an avenue.
Some..., yes. Only 10 to 15% of all illegal guns are stolen. At the moment there is no incentive to smuggle guns into the USA, because guns are so easily available. So that is not even an issue.
frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS
Not even close to correct, criminals have tons of options. The whole point which should be obvious to anyone keeping an open mind is that criminals BY NATURE do not follow laws.
I am not assuming that criminals follow laws. If no law abiding citizen would sell a gun to a criminal, criminals would have no guns. Well, they would have to steal them, or smuggle them. It would be not impossible, but harder for them
to obtain guns. So, criminals would have less guns, and there would be less gun crimes and murders.
 
What is your point? It is OK if you are killed by someone you know?

If you prevent criminals from getting guns, then their crimes would be less lethal.

Is selling you "private cigarettes" to minors a right? In the same fashion, you do not have a right to sell guns to felons.

But where does the black market get their guns from? The laws that I propose would reduce the size of the black market, and less criminals would get their hands on guns.

Some..., yes. Only 10 to 15% of all illegal guns are stolen. At the moment there is no incentive to smuggle guns into the USA, because guns are so easily available. So that is not even an issue.
frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

I am not assuming that criminals follow laws. If no law abiding citizen would sell a gun to a criminal, criminals would have no guns. Well, they would have to steal them, or smuggle them. It would be not impossible, but harder for them
to obtain guns. So, criminals would have less guns, and there would be less gun crimes and murders.

God that is stupid. Cast your eyes upon studies concerning the war on drugs and get back to us.

If no one was a bad guy we wouldn't have any crimes

If you had wheels you could be a trolley car

most "law abiding" citizens (ie those who don't have a record and can buy a gun legally) are NOT Law abiding if they are engaging in straw purchases .
 
What is your point? It is OK if you are killed by someone you know?
My point is that the relevance of your number is meaningless without context. Criminals kill criminals in the highest numbers, and they also don't follow other laws so adding more won't help.

If you prevent criminals from getting guns, then their crimes would be less lethal.
Guess you should tell the woman bludgeoned to death and set on fire a few years back in my state that she would be alive today if the two teens who raped and robbed her that if they didn't have a gun she would be alive. Oh wait, they didn't have a gun and you can't tell her anything because she's dead, oh, and I promise you she suffered based on the stuff that was leaked to the press.

Is selling you "private cigarettes" to minors a right? In the same fashion, you do not have a right to sell guns to felons.
My god this is ****ing stupid. I have a right to sell my property, I cannot knowingly sell to prohibited persons. I am not willing to lose value on my property to make you feel better.

But where does the black market get their guns from? The laws that I propose would reduce the size of the black market, and less criminals would get their hands on guns.
Already answered that, any avenue available which includes national borders, ports, and even unguarded beaches.

Some..., yes. Only 10 to 15% of all illegal guns are stolen. At the moment there is no incentive to smuggle guns into the USA, because guns are so easily available. So that is not even an issue.
frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS
You don't have a clue here. It doesn't matter what you try to do, if there is a profit in getting weapons to criminals, other criminals will do so. And if you think there aren't guns being smuggled in you are kidding yourself.

I am not assuming that criminals follow laws. If no law abiding citizen would sell a gun to a criminal, criminals would have no guns. Well, they would have to steal them, or smuggle them. It would be not impossible, but harder for them
to obtain guns. So, criminals would have less guns, and there would be less gun crimes and murders.
Yes, in a way you are assuming criminals will follow laws because your reasoning is that a bunch of ineffective current laws can be strengthened against those who aren't following them. The whole point is that criminals will still get whatever they want and all you are advocating for is stupid assed legal schemes that only apply to the law abiding.
 
In the end you could say that about me and anyone else in the forum too. :shrug:

No, some people offer constructive critcism, analogies, facts and links to supporting information. ;)
 
Question #1 - How do you plan on going about registering every firearm?
Every newly sold gun will be registered, and all sales will be registered. It would be difficult to register all the guns that are already lying around, though. So it might
take some time before most of the guns in circulation would be registered.
Question #2 - How do you plan on enforcing compliance with the BGC for every sale rule?
One possibility is that private sales would have to be done through a middle man, perhaps a licensed gun dealer. One could perhaps think
of other ways to comply without too much hassle for private sales.
Question #3 - How do you plan on enforcing compliance with the stolen gun thing?
If a crime was committed with a gun that could be tracked to some person and the person did not report the gun as stolen, that person would be in trouble. This means, at least a fine, and if the person
"looses" guns on a regular basis, (s)he will no longer be able to buy guns.
 
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