• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

background checks for ALL firearm sales will reduce the murder rate

Goshin said:
Shows Ive been to in recent years did not allow private non-FFL sales within the actual sales floor.
Click to expand...
They probably don't want the hassle of enforcing the difference is my guess.
 
William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States 125--26 1829 (2d ed.)

In the second article, it is declared, that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state; a proposition from which few will dissent. Although in actual war, the services of regular troops are confessedly more valuable; yet, while peace prevails, and in the commencement of a war before a regular force can be raised, the militia form the palladium of the country. They are ready to repel invasion, to suppress insurrection, and preserve the good order and peace of government. That they should be well regulated, is judiciously added. A disorderly militia is disgraceful to itself, and dangerous not to the enemy, but to its own country. The duty of the state government is, to adopt such regulations as will tend to make good soldiers with the least interruptions of the ordinary and useful occupations of civil life. In this all the Union has a strong and visible interest.

The corollary, from the first position, is, that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.
 
Jerry said:
If that were true then that's the argument you would have used in the beginning. Now, however, you're just trying to change your argument because you were shown to be wrong once again.
Click to expand...

That is silly. This whole caps thing is your personal cause celebre and is rather ridiculous. That was established the first time you got on your white horse and charged at that particular windmill.
 
haymarket said:
That is silly. This whole caps thing is your personal cause celebre and is rather ridiculous. That was established the first time you got on your white horse and charged at that particular windmill.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't this be taken elsewhere
 
shagg said:
I can respect that. TBH I don't see why civilians should need an assault rifle, but then I don't see any reason to ban them either. Its not a fight worth having and it wouldn't really accomplish anything. It would be a mostly empty emotionally driven gesture.

Because a private seller isn't qualified to organize and run an event where a large number of weapons are bought and sold. Someone who makes a living buying and selling fire arms and has access to NICS is. I'd concede the point though if police were running a checks system of some kind. On duty police patrol these events? Do they patrol for the duration or just swing through every couple of hours? As it stands they can't legally require anyone from a private sale to undergo a check anyway. At least they should be allowed to ask for proof of citizenship, but inevitably profiling accusations and lawsuits would follow.
Click to expand...

What if I dont see why anyone can go buy a 650hp 200mph ZO6 Corvette? Should you first have a competition licence to go down to your local Chevy dealership to buy one?
I have 4 "assault" rifles. Of course the whole term is misleading and a media driven scare tactic.
But guess what, the 2A does not specify what type of guns I can own.
And as a private citizen, how do you know my qualifications to run a gun show? I buy and sell alot of guns at gun shows. We exchange drivers license info and thats it.
Also, you know that less than half of one percent of all gun crime is commited with a "assault rifle".
 
CRUE CAB said:
What if I dont see why anyone can go buy a 650hp 200mph ZO6 Corvette? Should you first have a competition licence to go down to your local Chevy dealership to buy one?
I have 4 "assault" rifles. Of course the whole term is misleading and a media driven scare tactic.
But guess what, the 2A does not specify what type of guns I can own.
And as a private citizen, how do you know my qualifications to run a gun show? I buy and sell alot of guns at gun shows. We exchange drivers license info and thats it.
Also, you know that less than half of one percent of all gun crime is committed with a "assault rifle".
Click to expand...

Like I said, I don't personally see why anyone would want an assault rifle, but I don't see any reason to ban them either, especially considering the titanium wall opposition any proposed gun regulation gets. The little war against assault rifles was a mostly empty emotionally charged gesture. In the end I feel the effect of an assault weapon ban on gun crime would be so small as to be immeasurable and would come at great cost.

A point I've been dancing around however is that, with full auto illegal, the government has regulated/restricted 2A. Doubly so with the language in 2A showing it was intended that citizens be allowed the same caliber of weapon given to common soldiers in the military (which are full auto capable).

As to the gun show, I feel its a legitimate concern that people who would fail a BGC can go to a gun show and purchase a wide variety of guns in whatever quantity they can afford from private sellers. My statement earlier was that non-dealers aren't qualified to run such an event because they have no NICS access to perform checks or make sure they're performed. It makes the assumption that checks should be happening for every buyer at a gun show, which I know few here would accept outright. My argument can be summed up by saying that it seems like it wouldn't be a big concession from the pro-gun crowd and would score a lot of points in the PR game, making future stands against unreasonable gun regulation much easier, and getting the liberals off gun regulation. Currently many view the gun crowd as unreasonable and irrational in their vigil against 2A encroachment, when there's so many "Clear examples" of the evils of easy access to guns and excessive firepower. Not that I agree with them mind you, ignorance of the facts behind gun violence and an urge to fight for what they see as a morally superior position, along with a dash of intolerance, is the base recipe most of their positions start with. I really just want to see the "gun show loophole" closed, and it turns out its not as big a loophole as its made out to be, with a lot of shows moving towards dealer-only sales. I think if an effort was made private sellers could be accommodated somehow, but I'm speaking with a certain degree of ignorance, and again it looks like reality is already moving in a different direction, away from private sellers at shows.
 
shagg said:
Like I said, I don't personally see why anyone would want an assault rifle, but I don't see any reason to ban them either, especially considering the titanium wall opposition any proposed gun regulation gets. The little war against assault rifles was a mostly empty emotionally charged gesture. In the end I feel the effect of an assault weapon ban on gun crime would be so small as to be immeasurable and would come at great cost.

A point I've been dancing around however is that, with full auto illegal, the government has regulated/restricted 2A. Doubly so with the language in 2A showing it was intended that citizens be allowed the same caliber of weapon given to common soldiers in the military (which are full auto capable).

As to the gun show, I feel its a legitimate concern that people who would fail a BGC can go to a gun show and purchase a wide variety of guns in whatever quantity they can afford from private sellers. My statement earlier was that non-dealers aren't qualified to run such an event because they have no NICS access to perform checks or make sure they're performed. It makes the assumption that checks should be happening for every buyer at a gun show, which I know few here would accept outright. My argument can be summed up by saying that it seems like it wouldn't be a big concession from the pro-gun crowd and would score a lot of points in the PR game, making future stands against unreasonable gun regulation much easier, and getting the liberals off gun regulation. Currently many view the gun crowd as unreasonable and irrational in their vigil against 2A encroachment, when there's so many "Clear examples" of the evils of easy access to guns and excessive firepower. Not that I agree with them mind you, ignorance of the facts behind gun violence and an urge to fight for what they see as a morally superior position, along with a dash of intolerance, is the base recipe most of their positions start with. I really just want to see the "gun show loophole" closed, and it turns out its not as big a loophole as its made out to be, with a lot of shows moving towards dealer-only sales. I think if an effort was made private sellers could be accommodated somehow, but I'm speaking with a certain degree of ignorance, and again it looks like reality is already moving in a different direction, away from private sellers at shows.
Click to expand...

Promoters sell space, not guns. Most are required to have a space selling license.

My experience with private sellers at gun shows is that there are not enough of them to be a problem, and the ones there are often selling grandpas guns or vintage pieces that would be of no interest to a criminal. Space is somewhat expensive, and shows are policed. As a promoter you don't want the hassle of a non licensed dealer at a show.

This idea you postulate that gun show background checks would pacify the liberals is a myth. What would pacify the anti gun lobby is zero weapons in civilian hands. In their view, even toy guns should not be legal. Barry just banned the reimportation of worn out 70 year old military pieces, and called them military grade. No one would purchase one of these to rob a 7-11 or shoot up a school.
 
jimbo said:
Promoters sell space, not guns. Most are required to have a space selling license.

My experience with private sellers at gun shows is that there are not enough of them to be a problem, and the ones there are often selling grandpas guns or vintage pieces that would be of no interest to a criminal. Space is somewhat expensive, and shows are policed. As a promoter you don't want the hassle of a non licensed dealer at a show.

This idea you postulate that gun show background checks would pacify the liberals is a myth. What would pacify the anti gun lobby is zero weapons in civilian hands. In their view, even toy guns should not be legal. Barry just banned the reimportation of worn out 70 year old military pieces, and called them military grade. No one would purchase one of these to rob a 7-11 or shoot up a school.
Click to expand...
As a costomer I don't want the hassle of my dealer needing a license.
 
jimbo said:
Promoters sell space, not guns. Most are required to have a space selling license.

My experience with private sellers at gun shows is that there are not enough of them to be a problem, and the ones there are often selling grandpas guns or vintage pieces that would be of no interest to a criminal. Space is somewhat expensive, and shows are policed. As a promoter you don't want the hassle of a non licensed dealer at a show.

This idea you postulate that gun show background checks would pacify the liberals is a myth. What would pacify the anti gun lobby is zero weapons in civilian hands. In their view, even toy guns should not be legal. Barry just banned the reimportation of worn out 70 year old military pieces, and called them military grade. No one would purchase one of these to rob a 7-11 or shoot up a school.
Click to expand...
You should come to the Melbourne Gun Show.
Yes there are guys that sell old guns and other antique things of interest, but many sell the latest and greatest in weaponry.
 
CRUE CAB said:
You should come to the Melbourne Gun Show.
Yes there are guys that sell old guns and other antique things of interest, but many sell the latest and greatest in weaponry.
Click to expand...

If individuals are purchasing guns for resale and reselling them, they are violating the law.
 
CRUE CAB said:
What laws are those?
I could sell my whole collection and violate no law.
Click to expand...

Yes you could. You could do it in your home, on a street corner, or at a gun show. But you cannot act as a dealer anywhere without a FFL.

I'm not sure where the line is, but LE does know, and I have never been to a show where there was not a signicant LE. presence.
 
jimbo said:
Yes you could. You could do it in your home, on a street corner, or at a gun show. But you cannot act as a dealer anywhere without a FFL.

I'm not sure where the line is, but LE does know, and I have never been to a show where there was not a signicant LE. presence.
Click to expand...
No cops at the Melbourne show other than the ones directing traffic.
Even the bigger shows in Orlando there are not cops walking around.
Florida law is very gun/2A friendly.
 
CRUE CAB said:
No cops at the Melbourne show other than the ones directing traffic.
Even the bigger shows in Orlando there are not cops walking around.
Florida law is very gun/2A friendly.
Click to expand...

Admittedly I have not been to every show in the US. Just my personal experience.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom