As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

[iguanaman]

So you trust Putin to conduct a fair and square election. Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?


Would you say you disagree with the validity of the indendence referendum of 1991 but you approve of the validity of the Crimean referendum of 1994?

Gorbachev didn't object to the Helsinki Commission, what is Putin afraid of?


I didn't ask you for your opinion of western claims or what fellow members have posted. I asked why can't you critique the methods they employed.

If you say the numbers in that article are inflated then you can say why their methods aren't correct. But you haven't been able to mention any criticism of the methods they used to confirm more than 100,000 dead Russian soldiers already.

"This list is compiled from verified, publicly available sources, including social media posts by family members, local news reports, and official announcements from regional authorities. This list is not exhaustive, as not every military death becomes public knowledge."

All right. How are they wrong. What's inflated look like. That's all you've said so far. 'Numbers are inflated' doesn't mean nobody's counting them.


How did you whatabout yourself into thinking that I ever posted what you just said. Please quote that.

I have said 40 times that a new referendum could have been Putins choice but instead he chose an invasion.

If a new referendum is monitored by international organizations then it will further self determination and I will support it thoroughly regardless of the outcome. If it's a Putin election then nobody accepts it.

And that means Putin won't put it to a vote. Why not? Because he can't control the vote. It means that many casualties isn't as important to him as power and control.



I trust the EU monitors. I don't trust Putin.
If it's a transparent election, the EU will accept it and Putin will prove everything you're claiming about self determination. But he'll never prove anything with his stupid war.

Putin would lose in any fair election anywhere in Ukraine. That is why he won't allow monitored elections in Ukraine. His "elections" in the occupied areas were total shams. People were voting at the point of a gun. Also Putin is now a disciple of Joseph Stalin and the more Russians die for him the more glorious he is. He stated at the start of the war the dying for the motherland was far better than dying in the gutter from alcoholism. That is what Putin thinks of his people. At least a million Russians will die for nothing in this useless war. We were horrified by the 60,000 that died in dozen years of Vietnam enough to put up a memorial with every dead soldiers name. Russia is losing that number in Ukraine every 2 to 3 months.

 

[Tigerace117]

So you trust Putin to conduct a fair and square election. Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?


Would you say you disagree with the validity of the indendence referendum of 1991 but you approve of the validity of the Crimean referendum of 1994?

Gorbachev didn't object to the Helsinki Commission, what is Putin afraid of?


I didn't ask you for your opinion of western claims or what fellow members have posted. I asked why can't you critique the methods they employed.

If you say the numbers in that article are inflated then you can say why their methods aren't correct. But you haven't been able to mention any criticism of the methods they used to confirm more than 100,000 dead Russian soldiers already.

"This list is compiled from verified, publicly available sources, including social media posts by family members, local news reports, and official announcements from regional authorities. This list is not exhaustive, as not every military death becomes public knowledge."

All right. How are they wrong. What's inflated look like. That's all you've said so far. 'Numbers are inflated' doesn't mean nobody's counting them.


How did you whatabout yourself into thinking that I ever posted what you just said. Please quote that.

I have said 40 times that a new referendum could have been Putins choice but instead he chose an invasion.

If a new referendum is monitored by international organizations then it will further self determination and I will support it thoroughly regardless of the outcome. If it's a Putin election then nobody accepts it.

And that means Putin won't put it to a vote. Why not? Because he can't control the vote. It means that many casualties isn't as important to him as power and control.



I trust the EU monitors. I don't trust Putin.
If it's a transparent election, the EU will accept it and Putin will prove everything you're claiming about self determination. But he'll never prove anything with his stupid war.

Because Putin isn’t Gorbachev, and isn’t interested in dismantling his country for promises the West has no interest in actually abiding by.

I would say that no amount of blind denial can change what the Crimeans have voted for repeatedly at this point.

In case you hadn’t noticed Gorbachev was a failure as a leader. Why would any Russian seek to emulate him?

You panicked and flailed when forced to confront the biases that cause claims of Russian losses to be so inflated, yes.

But by all means, keep desperately trying



The EU is not a neutral or impartial arbitrator.

The West doesn’t accept votes that produce outcomes they don’t like, as has been pointed out to you fifty times.

No you won’t. You’ve made it quite clear you will never accept any outcome contrary to what the US and Kiev want in said vote.

No it won’t. As history has shown dozens of times.

 

[Tigerace117]

Putin would lose in any fair election anywhere in Ukraine. That is why he won't allow monitored elections in Ukraine. His "elections" in the occupied areas were total shams. People were voting at the point of a gun. Also Putin is now a disciple of Joseph Stalin and the more Russians die for him the more glorious he is. He stated at the start of the war the dying for the motherland was far better than dying in the gutter from alcoholism. That is what Putin thinks of his people. At least a million Russians will die for nothing in this useless war. We were horrified by the 60,000 that died in dozen years of Vietnam enough to put up a memorial with every dead soldiers name. Russia is losing that number in Ukraine every 2 to 3 months.

No they aren’t. But hey, way to prove my point about Western claims of Russian KIA being laughably inflated

 

[soap box]

Because Putin isn’t Gorbachev, and isn’t interested in dismantling his country for promises the West has no interest in actually abiding by.

I would say that no amount of blind denial can change what the Crimeans have voted for repeatedly at this point.

In case you hadn’t noticed Gorbachev was a failure as a leader. Why would any Russian seek to emulate him?

You panicked and flailed when forced to confront the biases that cause claims of Russian losses to be so inflated, yes.

But by all means, keep desperately trying



The EU is not a neutral or impartial arbitrator.

The West doesn’t accept votes that produce outcomes they don’t like, as has been pointed out to you fifty times.

No you won’t. You’ve made it quite clear you will never accept any outcome contrary to what the US and Kiev want in said vote.

No it won’t. As history has shown dozens of times.

Who said anything about Putin dividing up his Russia? Or do you mean the Soviet Union still exists and Gorbachev never really gave it away? Westerners broke up the Soviet Union, or did it crumble after the Ukranian Referendum of independence in December 1991 which was monitored by the Helsinki Commission.

I would trust monitors and observers from Guatemala, India, Japan, Taiwan, I would trust any established organization from any continent that can verify the transparency of an election. But I would never trust a Putin election.

Why is he afraid of transparency? He said this war was about self determination.

Putin could call for a legitimate election or referendum today. It would need a ceasefire and earnest negotiations. A monitored election would be convincing. That would be a genuine action to address the legitimate and important rights to self determination. That would provide a framework to negotiate statehood and independence.

But he won't.

It's within his authority to call for a legitimate election. So why can't Putin hold an observed and monitored election like Gorbachev did? What's he scared of?

 

[Lycanthrope]

It would be classic Trump to not lift a finger to give additional help to Ukraine and then take credit when the Russian invasion is acknowledged as a failure.

"I ALWAYS KNEW PUTIN (WHO IS A VERY BAD MAN BY THE WAY, VERY BAD) WOULD GIVE UP. NO ONE GAVE ME CREDIT FOR THAT AND THAT'S OKAY, NO ONE EVER DOES. BUT I KNEW."

 

[Tigerace117]

Who said anything about Putin dividing up his Russia? Or do you mean the Soviet Union still exists and Gorbachev never really gave it away? Westerners broke up the Soviet Union, or did it crumble after the Ukranian Referendum of independence in December 1991 which was monitored by the Helsinki Commission.

I would trust monitors and observers from Guatemala, India, Japan, Taiwan, I would trust any established organization from any continent that can verify the transparency of an election. But I would never trust a Putin election.

Why is he afraid of transparency? He said this war was about self determination.

Putin could call for a legitimate election or referendum today. It would need a ceasefire and earnest negotiations. A monitored election would be convincing. That would be a genuine action to address the legitimate and important rights to self determination. That would provide a framework to negotiate statehood and independence.

But he won't.

It's within his authority to call for a legitimate election. So why can't Putin hold an observed and monitored election like Gorbachev did? What's he scared of?

…..are you unaware of what Gorbachev did?

Trying to credit Ukraine for “breaking up the USSR” is laughable.

So, by definition, you just admitted, again, you would never accept any such referendum to end the war, since Putin, by definition, would have to be involved.

Yes, and we’ve established your unwillingness to face up to that as well.

Because the West would never accept any such thing, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

Why should he call for something the West wouldn’t accept?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Okay, a few points.

The first point is, we aren't talking about Kyiv or Odessa, we are talking about Donbas and Crimea. Places that are not historically part of Ukraine, but were assigned to the former Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet leadership.

They were willing to be part of the new Ukraine initially as long as they were allowed to have a voice in the process. That voice was silenced when the Ukrainian majority overthrew Yanukovych (With US collusion) and that's when they took up arms.

Alaska was sold to the US in 1857. Can Moscow now renege on that transfer because Putin has had had a change of heart?

Ukraine allowed Crimea to have autonomy and their own Constitution. Far more freedom than Moscow ever permitted.

The Tatars began returning to Crimea after Ukrainian independence in 1991. Stalin deported (ethnic cleansing) at least 200,000 Tatars in 1944. 8,000+ died during deportation.

After the illegal Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, the Russian persecutions began anew.....

Crimea: One year on from annexation; critics harassed, attacked and silenced

The de facto authorities in Crimea have failed to investigate a series of abductions and torture of their critics, and resorted to an unrelenting campaign of intimidation to silence dissent, said Amnesty International in a briefing published today on the first anniversary of annexation.

www.amnesty.org

Crimea: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies

Russian authorities in Crimea have intensified persecution of Crimean Tatars, under various pretexts and with the apparent goal of completely silencing dissent on the peninsula, Human Rights Watch said today. Crimean Tatars are a Muslim ethnic minority indigenous to the Crimean Peninsula. Many...

www.hrw.org

So Russia's position that they need to protect ethnic Russians has some validity.

There are ethnic Russians living in most European countries. Just how far does this Russian "protection" extend? To Poland? To the Baltic States?

I lived in Crimea for a year as a territory of Ukraine. There was no Russian dissatisfaction. Ethinc Russians in Crimea enjoyed a greater degree of freedon than Russians living in Russia proper. The Tartars also enjoyed greater freedoms, having their own television and radio stations and their own parliament (The Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People). There was harmony until 2013 when Moscow began sending agitators to Crimea. Were you aware that the Russian agent Maria Butina agitated in Sevastopol before infiltrating the NRA/GOP stateside? As a reward for her "services" to the Motherland, Butina is today a Deputy in the Russian Duma, sitting on the Committee on International Affairs as well as the Commission on Investigation of Foreign Interference in Domestic Affairs of Russia. (Trump AG Pam Bondi has dismantled the DoJ/FBI units that investigated Russian election-interference/cyber-hacking here in the US).

You're not very good at this. I suggest a different cause celebre. Defending Netanyahu (another wanted war criminal)? The Republic of Congo (ROC)? Plenty of Russian mercenaries there.

 

[soap box]

Because Putin isn’t Gorbachev, and isn’t interested in dismantling his country for promises the West has no interest in actually abiding by.

I would say that no amount of blind denial can change what the Crimeans have voted for repeatedly at this point.

In case you hadn’t noticed Gorbachev was a failure as a leader. Why would any Russian seek to emulate him?

You panicked and flailed when forced to confront the biases that cause claims of Russian losses to be so inflated, yes.

But by all means, keep desperately trying



The EU is not a neutral or impartial arbitrator.

The West doesn’t accept votes that produce outcomes they don’t like, as has been pointed out to you fifty times.

No you won’t. You’ve made it quite clear you will never accept any outcome contrary to what the US and Kiev want in said vote it won’t. As history has shown dozens of times.

Why choose more killing instead of actually pursuing self determination rights for ethnic Russians and separatists?

…..are you unaware of what Gorbachev did?

Trying to credit Ukraine for “breaking up the USSR” is laughable.

So, by definition, you just admitted, again, you would never accept any such referendum to end the war, since Putin, by definition, would have to be involved.

Yes, and we’ve established your unwillingness to face up to that as well.

Because the West would never accept any such thing, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

Why should he call for something the West wouldn’t accept?

You keep repeating that if Putin were involved I wouldn't support it. That's not what I said. Putin could call for an election with international monitors then that would indicate he is motivated by self determination issues and I will support the results no matter what. If Putin cooperates with an international organization to conduct an election, that would be focused on self determination and I would accept that and support the results no matter what.

I did say I will never trust Putin to conduct an election without verification from observers. I call it a Putelection because it's opaque. Do you see the difference? I would trust Putin if it can be verified. I will never trust Putin if he refuses to cooperate with monitors. He could agree with Zelensky to make it legal.

When did Putin lose an election or referendum?

When did the US or the West oppose the results of a monitored and observed election or referendum?

You keep up with an implied premise that peace can't accomplish what war does and this is wrong.
As Putin has chosen war, and if he wins, the claims of injustice will be around for decades. The fighting will go on. We're no better off with annexation when the core conflict is not cured.
Self determination is focused on where the people are, not forced into where the tanks are.


Self determination could solve this conflict. But you keep posting that arguments about a referendum aren't possible, or effective if compared to a continued military war. This war can't stop future fighting, but a new map can bring peace. Why do we have a war about this when Zelensky and Putin could let the people vote, and let the people living there decide. Putin could let them determine their future for themselves. Instead of that many Russian soldiers dying.



Determine it themselves, self determination. That's what it's supposed to be for.


You also keep repeating that the West will never accept the results of an election they don't like. Name an example and I'll look it up to see if the election or referendum was monitored first.

The Ukranian Referendum of independence was the nail in the coffin of the USSR. Gorbachev allowed international monitors. What's Putin afraid of? Is he afraid he won't win? Is that why he chose a war? He knew he can't guarantee an election so he knew he couldn't own Ukraine without a war. That's it , isn't it.

Yes it is. This is not about self determination. Self determination is important and meaningful. The claims of self determination are legitimate. But Putin is exploiting that as an excuse to further his power and conquest in his delusional vision of restoring the USSR.

 

[Tigerace117]

Why choose more killing instead of actually pursuing self determination rights for ethnic Russians and separatists?


You keep repeating that if Putin were involved I wouldn't support it. That's not what I said. Putin could call for an election with international monitors then that would indicate he is motivated by self determination issues and I will support the results no matter what. If Putin cooperates with an international organization to conduct an election, that would be focused on self determination and I would accept that and support the results no matter what.

I did say I will never trust Putin to conduct an election without verification from observers. I call it a Putelection because it's opaque. Do you see the difference? I would trust Putin if it can be verified. I will never trust Putin if he refuses to cooperate with monitors. He could agree with Zelensky to make it legal.

When did Putin lose an election or referendum?

When did the US or the West oppose the results of a monitored and observed election or referendum?

You keep up with an implied premise that peace can't accomplish what war does and this is wrong.
As Putin has chosen war, and if he wins, the claims of injustice will be around for decades. The fighting will go on. We're no better off with annexation when the core conflict is not cured.
Self determination is focused on where the people are, not forced into where the tanks are.


Self determination could solve this conflict. But you keep posting that arguments about a referendum aren't possible, or effective if compared to a continued military war. This war can't stop future fighting, but a new map can bring peace. Why do we have a war about this when Zelensky and Putin could let the people vote, and let the people living there decide. Putin could let them determine their future for themselves. Instead of that many Russian soldiers dying.



Determine it themselves, self determination. That's what it's supposed to be for.


You also keep repeating that the West will never accept the results of an election they don't like. Name an example and I'll look it up to see if the election or referendum was monitored first.

The Ukranian Referendum of independence was the nail in the coffin of the USSR. Gorbachev allowed international monitors. What's Putin afraid of? Is he afraid he won't win? Is that why he chose a war? He knew he can't guarantee an election so he knew he couldn't own Ukraine without a war. That's it , isn't it.

Yes it is. This is not about self determination. Self determination is important and meaningful. The claims of self determination are legitimate. But Putin is exploiting that as an excuse to further his power and conquest in his delusional vision of restoring the USSR.

Because the West isn’t interested in allowing any such thing for Crimea or the East. It never has. As has repeatedly been pointed out to you.

Except you keep proving that not to be the case. The West, as already, repeatedly pointed out to you, would never tolerate any such thing, especially since they know they would lose.

You keep going on and on about something you’ve already admitted you wouldn’t actually support, and the West definitely wouldn’t.

The West has engaged in rigging or electoral interference in well over a dozen countries just in the last seventy years alone.

You’ve yet to present any evidence Zelensky would agree with such an election, for that matter.

Probably because he— and the West— never would.

 

[soap box]

Because the West isn’t interested in allowing any such thing for Crimea or the East. It never has. As has repeatedly been pointed out to you.

I'm not talking about that opinion. It's not about your opinion of the world, It's what the rest of the world thinks.

Except you keep proving that not to be the case. The West, as already, repeatedly pointed out to you, would never tolerate any such thing, especially since they know they would lose.

Show me the best example so I can look up who verified the voting and count.

You keep going on and on about something you’ve already admitted you wouldn’t actually support,

You misconstrue every post.

I would support a election or referendum that Putin was participating in if there are international monitors to verify the transparency of the election.

I would never trust an election or referendum that Putin conducts without verification by an established entity.

and the West definitely wouldn’t.

The West has engaged in rigging or electoral interference in well over a dozen countries just in the last seventy years alone.

You’ve yet to present any evidence Zelensky would agree with such an election, for that matter.

Zelensky would be more eager to see the results than Putin would. Putin won't allow an election with observers in the the eastern oblasts because he can't control the vote. If anyone is going to say YES, it's Zelensky since Putin is too fn chicken.

Probably because he— and the West— never would.

The people are the idea, not the tanks. But Putin hates or fears democracy so much that he chose war.

When did Putin ever lose an election or referendum? He hasn't lost one yet. Do you understand why?

I asked you
Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?

and you replied

Because Putin isn’t Gorbachev, and isn’t interested in dismantling his country for promises the West has no interest in actually abiding by.

That's not an answer because no one is dismantling Putins Russia.

You did post 4 words that are true, "Putin isn't Gorbachev", quite true because Gorbachev didn't send hundreds of thousands of Russians to their death.

Seriously, Im only interested in two answers-

Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?

When did Putin ever lose an election or referendum?

 

[JoeB131]

Alaska was sold to the US in 1857. Can Moscow now renege on that transfer because Putin has had had a change of heart?

Since few Russians live there now (or when they sold it), no, that would be silly.

Ukraine allowed Crimea to have autonomy and their own Constitution. Far more freedom than Moscow ever permitted.

Um, so what?

The Tatars began returning to Crimea after Ukrainian independence in 1991. Stalin deported (ethnic cleansing) at least 200,000 Tatars in 1944. 8,000+ died during deportation.

After the illegal Russian annexation of Crimea in 2014, the Russian persecutions began anew.....

Don't care. Why is this our problem?

There are ethnic Russians living in most European countries. Just how far does this Russian "protection" extend? To Poland? To the Baltic States?

Again, you are being a little silly.

At the end of the day, the Donbas is not worth the 2 million casualties both sides have sustained. Esepcially since Ukraine will lose it regardless.

I lived in Crimea for a year as a territory of Ukraine. There was no Russian dissatisfaction. Ethinc Russians in Crimea enjoyed a greater degree of freedon than Russians living in Russia proper. The Tartars also enjoyed greater freedoms, having their own television and radio stations and their own parliament (The Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People). There was harmony until 2013 when Moscow began sending agitators to Crimea. Were you aware that the Russian agent Maria Butina agitated in Sevastopol before infiltrating the NRA/GOP stateside? As a reward for her "services" to the Motherland, Butina is today a Deputy in the Russian Duma, sitting on the Committee on International Affairs as well as the Commission on Investigation of Foreign Interference in Domestic Affairs of Russia. (Trump AG Pam Bondi has dismantled the DoJ/FBI units that investigated Russian election-interference/cyber-hacking here in the US).

Yet the Russians were able to take Crimea in three weeks.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Since few Russians live there now (or when they sold it), no, that would be silly.

Few Russians live in Ukraine anymore. Yet here we are.

At the end of the day, the Donbas is not worth the 2 million casualties both sides have sustained. Esepcially since Ukraine will lose it regardless.

Riddle me this: Why did Russia sacrifice thousands of Russian and North Kortean soldiers to reclaim Kursk?

Yet the Russians were able to take Crimea in three weeks.

The Russian forces in Crimea circa 2014 consisted of 25,000 Navy personnel (plus Spetznaz special forces and Marines) and far outnumbered the small contingent of Ukrainian forces in Crimea. IIRC, the entire country of Ukraine could only field 16,000 active soldiers in 2014 due to years of neglect and corruption by Viktor Yanukovych, an entire coterie of corrupt military officers, and the pro-Russia Party of Regions. Which was why it was necessary for Ukrainian oligarchs to recruit, arm, and finance ~37 Ukrainian volunteer battalions. Without this timely intercession by oligarchs, former soldiers and volunteers, the entire country of Ukraine could have fallen in a matter of a few weeks.

 

[Tigerace117]

I'm not talking about that opinion. It's not about your opinion of the world, It's what the rest of the world thinks.



Show me the best example so I can look up who verified the voting and count.



You misconstrue every post.

I would support a election or referendum that Putin was participating in if there are international monitors to verify the transparency of the election.

I would never trust an election or referendum that Putin conducts without verification by an established entity.




Zelensky would be more eager to see the results than Putin would. Putin won't allow an election with observers in the the eastern oblasts because he can't control the vote. If anyone is going to say YES, it's Zelensky since Putin is too fn chicken.



The people are the idea, not the tanks. But Putin hates or fears democracy so much that he chose war.

When did Putin ever lose an election or referendum? He hasn't lost one yet. Do you understand why?

I asked you
Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?

and you replied


That's not an answer because no one is dismantling Putins Russia.

You did post 4 words that are true, "Putin isn't Gorbachev", quite true because Gorbachev didn't send hundreds of thousands of Russians to their death.

Seriously, Im only interested in two answers-

Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did in 1991?

When did Putin ever lose an election or referendum?

You aren’t facing up to reality, but that doesn’t make reality go away.

The rest of the world doesn’t see the US as better than Russia, contrary to your flailing.

The West would never accept any such election to begin with, and especially not if they lose said election.

Therefore, your suggestion is meaningless.

No he wouldn’t. Zelensky has no interest in abiding by the self determination of the people for Crimea or the East. If he did he would have let them go years ago.

The West has destroyed more democracies than Russia and it isn’t even remotely close, so that’s clearly laughable.

The West has been desperate to dismantle Russia for over a century. No amount of denial can change that.

Gorbachev left Russia in such ruins it utterly discredited democracy for decades, actually.

Seriously, blind denial of reality can’t change the facts, no matter how much you double, triple, and quadruple down on it.

 

[soap box]

You aren’t facing up to reality, but that doesn’t make reality go away.

The rest of the world doesn’t see the US as better than Russia, contrary to your flailing.

The West would never accept any such election to begin with, and especially not if they lose said election.

Therefore, your suggestion is meaningless.

No he wouldn’t. Zelensky has no interest in abiding by the self determination of the people for Crimea or the East. If he did he would have let them go years ago.

The West has destroyed more democracies than Russia and it isn’t even remotely close, so that’s clearly laughable.

The West has been desperate to dismantle Russia for over a century. No amount of denial can change that.

Gorbachev left Russia in such ruins it utterly discredited democracy for decades, actually.

Seriously, blind denial of reality can’t change the facts, no matter how much you double, triple, and quadruple down on it.

I'm not asking how much you hate democracy or elections. I'm not asking how much you hate everything. I'm not asking you if understand how the war could end. I'm not asking if you understand how that wouldn't work only because Putin is an insane war monger. I'm not asking you, I'm telling you.

You are not able to accept that Putin chose war.
The only answers I'm interested in are these that you never answered since your deflections, like your last post, did not answer what I asked you.

Why can't Putin do what Gorbachev did?

When did Putin ever lose an election or referendum?

 

[JoeB131]

Few Russians live in Ukraine anymore. Yet here we are.

I agree. Now that Russia has reclaimed the Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine doesn't have a Russian problem anymore. So we need to redraw the borders to recognize reality and end a war that has become.... kind of pointless.

iddle me this: Why did Russia sacrifice thousands of Russian and North Kortean soldiers to reclaim Kursk?

Because in war, you destroy the enemy. Duh. Here's a better question: why did Zelenskyy sacrifice thousands of soldiers he can't spare to take land he wasn't able to hold?

The Russian forces in Crimea circa 2014 consisted of 25,000 Navy personnel (plus Spetznaz special forces and Marines) and far outnumbered the small contingent of Ukrainian forces in Crimea. IIRC, the entire country of Ukraine could only field 16,000 active soldiers in 2014 due to years of neglect and corruption by Viktor Yanukovych, an entire coterie of corrupt military officers, and the pro-Russia Party of Regions. Which was why it was necessary for Ukrainian oligarchs to recruit, arm, and finance ~37 Ukrainian volunteer battalions. Without this timely intercession by oligarchs, former soldiers and volunteers, the entire country of Ukraine could have fallen in a matter of a few weeks.

Yanukovych left in 2014. So the leaders who were trying to crush Russian ethnics in the Donbass for 8 years and taking Billions in Western Aid (that mysteriously disappeared somehow) weren't able to raise a decent army.

I hate Trump and everything he stands for, but he needs to pull the plug on this circus.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I agree. Now that Russia has reclaimed the Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine doesn't have a Russian problem anymore.

Ukraine never had a "Russian" problem. That is Kremlin propaganda and agitprop.

I visited Donetsk and Luhansk and lived for a year in Kharkiv. No ethnic problems. The Kremlin plays on this because they realize that few Western journalists and fewer Western citizens have visited eastern Ukraine and can thus debunk the Kremlin's claims. It used to be a very similar situation regarding Egypt and Israel. Egyptian state television and radio broadcast anti-Israel propaganda from sign-on to sign-off. That is exactly how it is today with Russian state television and radio.

So we need to redraw the borders to recognize reality and end a war that has become.... kind of pointless.

Putin himself signed the Border Treaty.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Russian–Ukrainian_border

Why did Zelenskyy sacrifice thousands of soldiers he can't spare to take land he wasn't able to hold?

I'm only a former Marine. But I strongly suspect Kursk forced Putin to re-allocate Russian soldiers from the Southern theater and relieve pressures in those regions.

Yanukovych left in 2014. So the leaders who were trying to crush Russian ethnics in the Donbass for 8 years and taking Billions in Western Aid (that mysteriously disappeared somehow) weren't able to raise a decent army.

Ukraine decleared neutrality in 1991 at independence. Ukraine also remounced nuclear weapons, something her behemouth neighbor to the east would never do.

I hate Trump and everything he stands for....

I don't believe that yarn for a New York minute. All of your statements echo either Russian propaganda or MAGA talking points.

You really want to be useful? Demand that Trump cease supporting Bibi's genocide in Gaza. https://debatepolitics.com/forums/middle-east.77/

 

[JoeB131]

Ukraine never had a "Russian" problem. That is Kremlin propaganda and agitprop.

I visited Donetsk and Luhansk and lived for a year in Kharkiv. No ethnic problems. The Kremlin plays on this because they realize that few Western journalists and fewer Western citizens have visited eastern Ukraine and can thus debunk the Kremlin's claims. It used to be a very similar situation regarding Egypt and Israel. Egyptian state television and radio broadcast anti-Israel propaganda from sign-on to sign-off. That is exactly how it is today with Russian state television and radio.

The problem with ethnic problems is that they aren't always obvious. Look at Rwanda or Yugoslavia. People are very civilized until they aren't.

I'm only a former Marine. But I strongly suspect Kursk forced Putin to re-allocate Russian soldiers from the Southern theater and relieve pressures in those regions.

Then it was a waste of resources, given that Ukraine didn't hold it very long. BOTH sides have lost far more lives, resources, infrastructure, and equipment for what very little was at stake. So now all they are fighting over is pride and whose leader is going to get booted out of office.

Ukraine decleared neutrality in 1991 at independence. Ukraine also remounced nuclear weapons, something her behemouth neighbor to the east would never do.

Okay, but then they tried to join NATO and the European Union.

I don't believe that yarn for a New York minute. All of your statements echo either Russian propaganda or MAGA talking points.

You really want to be useful? Demand that Trump cease supporting Bibi's genocide in Gaza.

I'm waiting to see what the temperature is here before I address Israel/Palestine here. ON other boards, I am VERY critical of Israel. Just not sure I want to get into fights about it here.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The problem with ethnic problems is that they aren't always obvious. Look at Rwanda or Yugoslavia. People are very civilized until they aren't.

Doesn't it strike you as peculiar that problems of a Russian nature arose in far eastern Ukraine only in 2013? During that time (the time of Maidan) the Kremlin sent intelligence agents to the eastern oblasts and Crimea in the guise of "tourists". The Russia/Ukraine border checkpoints at that time were perfunctory. Busses full of people crossed the border going both ways every day. In addition, at this time the Russian state ramped up its anti-Kyiv propaganda via television and radio broadcasts. In this part of Ukraine. the Russian broadcast signals were far stronger than the signal from the main national broadcast tower in Kyiv. This is really when Putin really noticed the work of Margareta Simonyan.

Then it was a waste of resources, given that Ukraine didn't hold it very long. BOTH sides have lost far more lives, resources, infrastructure, and equipment for what very little was at stake. So now all they are fighting over is pride and whose leader is going to get booted out of office.

Ukraine held it long enough to force the reallocation of Russian battalions away from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Moscow was so destitute of manpower that she needed to import North Koreans as cannon fodder.

For Ukraine this war is existential. A Russian victory means the end of a free and independent Ukraine and once again surviving under the Russian boot. Thousands would be imprisoned or executed outright.

Okay, but then they tried to join NATO and the European Union.

Both are things Ukraine should have done in concert with most of the former Warsaw Pact nations. But hindsight is usually unproductive.

Why do you think Sweden and Finland went from Neutrals to NATO members in 2023? Because everyone in Europe recognizes the intrinsic and immediate danger of Putin's expansionist agenda.

I'm waiting to see what the temperature is here before I address Israel/Palestine here. ON other boards, I am VERY critical of Israel. Just not sure I want to get into fights about it here.

The Israel/Palestine forum here has its own rules. Make sure you read these rules before posting.

 

[JoeB131]

Doesn't it strike you as peculiar that problems of a Russian nature arose in far eastern Ukraine only in 2013? During that time (the time of Maidan) the Kremlin sent intelligence agents to the eastern oblasts and Crimea in the guise of "tourists". The Russia/Ukraine border checkpoints at that time were perfunctory. Busses full of people crossed the border going both ways every day. In addition, at this time the Russian state ramped up its anti-Kyiv propaganda via television and radio broadcasts. In this part of Ukraine. the Russian broadcast signals were far stronger than the signal from the main national broadcast tower in Kyiv. This is really when Putin really noticed the work of Margareta Simonyan.

It became a problem after the Maidan coup because the lie that ethnic Russians would have inclusion was busted when they ran Yankovich (sp) out of office. Nothing spoils attitudes when elections are perceived as a farce.

Ukraine held it long enough to force the reallocation of Russian battalions away from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. Moscow was so destitute of manpower that she needed to import North Koreans as cannon fodder.

For Ukraine this war is existential. A Russian victory means the end of a free and independent Ukraine and once again surviving under the Russian boot. Thousands would be imprisoned or executed outright.

Again, you are fantasizing. Putin hasn't even done a full mobilization yet. Zelenskyy, on the other hand, is running out of old men and little boys to throw into the fight.

This war is not "existential". A peace treaty based on a redrawn border would be acceptable to all sides.

Both are things Ukraine should have done in concert with most of the former Warsaw Pact nations. But hindsight is usually unproductive.

Why do you think Sweden and Finland went from Neutrals to NATO members in 2023? Because everyone in Europe recognizes the intrinsic and immediate danger of Putin's expansionist agenda.

Or conversely, NATO expansion is an open threat to Russia. NATO has gone from the Elbe to right up to Russia's border.

The Israel/Palestine forum here has its own rules. Make sure you read these rules before posting.

Naw, if you have "special rules", it isn't worth posting.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Again, you are fantasizing.

I'm done with you. You are what you are (a Putinist) and just like a MAGA cultist.... no amount of facts and logic will change either your attutude or your beliefs.

I find it incongruous that you support one war criminal in Russia, and opine that you oppose another war criminal in Israel.

Be that as it may, everyone in this particular sub-forum now knows what you actually support. Russian expansionism and war crimes.

 

[Hamish Howl]

It became a problem after the Maidan coup because the lie that ethnic Russians would have inclusion was busted when they ran Yankovich (sp) out of office. Nothing spoils attitudes when elections are perceived as a farce.



Again, you are fantasizing. Putin hasn't even done a full mobilization yet. Zelenskyy, on the other hand, is running out of old men and little boys to throw into the fight.

This war is not "existential". A peace treaty based on a redrawn border would be acceptable to all sides.





Or conversely, NATO expansion is an open threat to Russia. NATO has gone from the Elbe to right up to Russia's border.



Naw, if you have "special rules", it isn't worth posting.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm done with you. You are what you are (a Putinist) and just like a MAGA cultist.... no amount of facts and logic will change either your attutude or your beliefs.

I find it incongruous that you support one war criminal in Russia, and opine that you oppose another war criminal in Israel.

Be that as it may, everyone in this particular sub-forum now knows what you actually support. Russian expansionism and war crimes.

Except you haven't presented facts and logic, you've presented a lot of angry emotion that Ukraine has effectively lost the war and refuses to admit defeat.

Russia is keeping Donbas and Crimea.
Trump will cut off aid at some point.
The best hope that Ukraine has for survival is a negotiated settlement.

Now, I don't support any war criminal. The difference between a "War Criminal" and a "War Hero" is the difference between a winner and a loser, and neither Netanyahu or Putin will ever see the inside of a Tribunal.

All that said, what Bibi is doing in Gaza is much worse than what Putin is doing in Ukraine. Ukraine is a border dispute that frankly, has gotten way out of hand.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Except you haven't presented facts and logic, you've presented a lot of angry emotion that Ukraine has effectively lost the war and refuses to admit defeat.

Russia is keeping Donbas and Crimea.
Trump will cut off aid at some point.
The best hope that Ukraine has for survival is a negotiated settlement.

Horseshit.

 

[Pyrite]

Since few Russians live there now (or when they sold it), no, that would be silly.


Um, so what?



Don't care. Why is this our problem?



Again, you are being a little silly.

At the end of the day, the Donbas is not worth the 2 million casualties both sides have sustained. Esepcially since Ukraine will lose it regardless.


Yet the Russians were able to take Crimea in three weeks.

At the end of the day, there is no justification for putin's unprovoked, unwarranted, and illegal invasion, occupation, and brutalization of another country.

 

[german hick]

In my opinion, this is what putin fears most--that the west will provide overwhelming force to Ukraine--and putin demonstrates his fear every time he threatens nuclear war.

If America rope-a-doped putin by sending a massive military aid package to Ukraine every time putin rattled his sabre, Ukraine would have Crimea by now.

nah, that was not that easy as you think. Give 7 Million refugees into a country completely broken, without housing and food chains.... - Silesians, Pommeranians and Prussians were treated here like the Syrians today. They were all a bit dirty and thieves..