• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Armed texas dad takes on three home intruders

It's a good thing to see would be victims defending themselves and their loved ones from dirt ball thugs. Fewer people would prey on innocents if they knew their own death would be a reasonable outcome.

Also, it is great to see Texans supporting Mexican Americans for a change.
 
I'd also be lying if I said that I did not use the wiki a lot, but I always check the citations. Under his citations, I did not anywhere find another source supporting the column with gun deaths per 100,000. But you're right, all of the stats that I looked at show conservative southern states, and sometimes western states, do indeed have more gun deaths per 100,000 people

"This article is a list of the U.S. states and the District of Columbia. The population data is the official data from the U.S. Census Bureau. The murder rates and gun murder rates were calculated based on the FBI reports and the official population of each state."

Youre a genius, you really are. I already posted the FBI links for you, since you were too lazy to do so yourself.

And the data also shows that states that score high on the Brady scale, frequently have more gun homicide than many of the low brady score/low gun homicide states.

You can't just cherry pick a few cases to support your case.

Conservative vs. liberal is a different issue. Stop conflating apples and oranges.
 
After checking the source wiki uses, if it's credible then savvy people use he source wiki used and not source wiki.
Attacking the messenger is a popular fallacy to use when you're losing the debate.
 
I'm not disputing that.

It's the gun murder per 100K rate AND the Brady score together that you need to look at to make a valid comparison as to who has the higher murder rate vs the lowest/highest Brady score.

That's what I've been looking at, and posting about.

Why dont YOU look at the data. Picking out southern/conservative states is irrelevant, especially as they are not the only ones with low Brady scores. If you actually look at the whole chart, most of the lowest Brady scores are not southern states, and most of them have equal or lower gun homicide rates compared to many high brady score states.

Do you know how to organize the data on the table? You can click on the boxes at the top of the chart to organize in ascending/descending order.

Even so, the WaPo chart still shows that the southern states have the highest gun ownership rate and when compared to the FBI stats they are the same states with the highest gun murder per 100k inhabitants. In otherwords, the data and the stats are not in your favor.

Will you stop mentioning southern states or conservative vs liberal? That is a completely separate issue.

You suck at evaluating data if you pick out southern states and ignore the rest.

Many states besides southern states on that list have just as high or higher rates of gun ownership. Look at the entire list, please.

Among the states with the lowest gun homicide rate


Most of them have equal or higher gun ownership rates, and none of them are southern states.

~~~

"Indiana 2.2 - 39.1
Kansas 2.2 - 42.1
Mass 1.8 - 12.6
Nebraska 1.8 - 38.6
Wisconsin 1.7 - 44.4
Rhode Island 1.5 - 12.8
West Virginia 1.5 - 55.4
Washingtin 1.4 - 33.1
Colorado 1.3 - 34.7
Montana 1.2 - 57.7
Minnesota 1.0 - 41.7
South Dakota 1.0 - 56.6
Oregon .9 - 39.8
Wyoming .9 - 59.7
Idaho .8 - 55.3
Maine .8 - 40.5
Utah .8 - 43.9
Iowa .7 - 42.8
North Dakota .6 - 50.7
Hawaii .5 - 8.7
New Hampshire .3 - 30.0
Vermont .3 - 42.0

~~~

among the states with the highest rates, only about half are southern states, and several have comparably lower gun ownership rates.

D.c 16.5 - 3.8
Louisiana 7.7 - 44.1
Missouri 5.4 - 41.1
Maryland 5.1 - 21.1
South Carolina 4.5 - 42.3
Delaware 4.2 - 25.5
Michigan 4.2 - 38.4
Missisipi 4.0 - 55.3
Florida 3.9 - 24.5
Georgia 3.8 - 40.3
Arizona 3.6 - 31.1
Pennsylvania 3.6 - 34.7
California 3.4 - 21.3
New Mexico 3.3 - 34.8
 
Jeezus, I already disproved this

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and posted the FBI links since you were too lazy to find them yourself.

Alaska has 2.7 gun homicides per 100,000, compared to:

California -- 3.4 (80 on the Brady scale)
New Jersey - 2.7/72 on the brady scale
New York -- 2.7/62
Maryland -- 5.1/45

and many others which rank relatively high on the scale.

Even if youre going to suck at looking at the data as a whole, please at least try to be honest.

Gun death =/= gun homicide, or total homicide. Deaths due to injury and suicide are a completely different issue.

Please look at ALL of the data in this link, which compares Brady score side by side with gun homicide.

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The rate of gun ownership is relevant for people who argue that more guns = more gun crime.

Where's the FBI link? I don't see it. But according to Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation USA FIREARMS DEATHS and most importantly Study: Alaska sets record in gun deaths per capita | Alaska Dispatch which is AN ENTIRE ARTICLE ON HOW ALASKA HAS MORE THAN 20 DEATHS PER 100,000 PEOPLE, IT BECOMES PRETTY CLEAR THAT YOU'RE A LIAR!!! How many sources do I have to show you that shows that Alaska has the most gun deaths per capita in the country, with a few putting it at number 2 after Louisiana, simply because it changes year to year. But Louisiana and Alaska are always numbers 1 and 2 and the states with the fewest gun deaths are always Massachusetts and Hawaii
 
Where's the FBI link? I don't see it. But according to Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation USA FIREARMS DEATHS and most importantly Study: Alaska sets record in gun deaths per capita | Alaska Dispatch which is AN ENTIRE ARTICLE ON HOW ALASKA HAS MORE THAN 20 DEATHS PER 100,000 PEOPLE, IT BECOMES PRETTY CLEAR THAT YOU'RE A LIAR!!! How many sources do I have to show you that shows that Alaska has the most gun deaths per capita in the country, with a few putting it at number 2 after Louisiana, simply because it changes year to year. But Louisiana and Alaska are always numbers 1 and 2 and the states with the fewest gun deaths are always Massachusetts and Hawaii


I posted the FBI links earlier. Herp Derp.

FBI — Table 20

I just explained to you that total gun deaths are not the same thing as gun homicides. Suicides and self inflicted injuries are not actions of one person hurting another. They are entirely different, in principle.

Are you REALLY this dense?

Im not a liar. I, unlike you, grasp the difference between gun homicides, and suicides/self injury.
 
"This article is a list of the U.S. states and the District of Columbia. The population data is the official data from the U.S. Census Bureau. The murder rates and gun murder rates were calculated based on the FBI reports and the official population of each state."

Youre a genius, you really are. I already posted the FBI links for you, since you were too lazy to do so yourself.

And the data also shows that states that score high on the Brady scale, frequently have more gun homicide than many of the low brady score/low gun homicide states.

You can't just cherry pick a few cases to support your case.

Conservative vs. liberal is a different issue. Stop conflating apples and oranges.
Where did you post the FBI links? I don't see them. But as for the Brady scale, the 2 states with the fewest gun deaths, Massachusetts and Hawaii, both have really high numbers on the scale, 65 and 50. As for the 2 states with the most gun violence per capita, Alaska and Louisiana, they are both very low on the scale. If you want to use the Brady scale, it's your funeral
 
I posted the FBI links earlier. Herp Derp.

FBI — Table 20

I just explained to you that total gun deaths are not the same thing as gun homicides. Suicides and self inflicted injuries are not actions of one person hurting another. They are entirely different, in principle.

Are you REALLY this dense?

Im not a liar. I, unlike you, grasp the difference between gun homicides, and suicides/self injury.


I see you also ignored my post about the dishonesty of the news links you posted, comparing gun homicides to total deaths -- comparing apples to oranges.
 
Where did you post the FBI links? I don't see them. But as for the Brady scale, the 2 states with the fewest gun deaths, Massachusetts and Hawaii, both have really high numbers on the scale, 65 and 50. As for the 2 states with the most gun violence per capita, Alaska and Louisiana, they are both very low on the scale. If you want to use the Brady scale, it's your funeral

I posted them on the previous page, jeez, and again on this page.

Picking 4 states out of 50 does not comprise a valid argument. Are you really this dense?

Alaska does not have the highest rate of gun homicide. In 2010 -- the data the wiki references -- the rate was 2.7, which is 24th. Stop being dishonest.

Louisiana is one state. It does not represent the entire picture.

Since you obviously suck at reading data, I'll do it for you, again.

If you look at the 20 states with the lowest gun homicide, most of them have low brady scores.

If you look at the states with the 11 highest brady scores, most of them have average or above average rates.

Picking a couple of states does not consist of a valid argument.

I can cherry pick, too.

California, with the highest brady score, has a rate of 3.4, while Utah, with a score of 0, as a rate of .8

New Hampshire and Vermont have a lower rate than Hawaii, and have a brady score of 6.
 
I'd also be lying if I said that I did not use the wiki a lot, but I always check the citations. Under his citations, I did not anywhere find another source supporting the column with gun deaths per 100,000. But you're right, all of the stats that I looked at show conservative southern states, and sometimes western states, do indeed have more gun deaths per 100,000 people

The FBI was Wiki's source for the gun deaths and the US Census Bureau was the source for population and density. Those stats were then calculated that for every 100K people in each state there were X number of murders and that was calculated into a percentage and put into a Gun Murder Rate per 100K column.

The higher the percentage rate, the higher the chance of getting murdered by a gun in that state. States like New York and California with the highest Brady score also had lower murder rates per 100k than many southern states that have the lowest Brady score and the most gun ownership. Sorry I didn't realize this would turn out to be so complicated.

Here's the FBI webpage found under Sources on the Wiki webpage....

^ a b "Table 20: Murder by State, Types of Weapons, 2010". Uniform Crime Reports. Crime in the U.S. 2010. FBI.
 
I posted the FBI links earlier. Herp Derp.

FBI — Table 20

I just explained to you that total gun deaths are not the same thing as gun homicides. Suicides and self inflicted injuries are not actions of one person hurting another. They are entirely different, in principle.

Are you REALLY this dense?

That FBI link does not show gun deaths per 100,000, which was the statistic we were looking at. My sources do show that statistic. Anyway, gun deaths are gun deaths, nomatter how they happen, but I looked at huffington post, and it showed that the 2 states with the highest homicides per 100,000 are Louisiana and Mississippi, both of which are fairly low on the Brady score
 
That's why I attack the source.
The source is the messenger. You attack the messenger/source because you can't argue against the facts presented by the messenger/source and thats why most of your arguements are little more than fallacies.
 
The source is the messenger. You attack the messenger/source because you can't argue against the facts presented by the messenger/source and thats why most of your arguements are little more than fallacies.
The DebatePolitics.com member is the messenger. What that member references is the source.
 
The DebatePolitics.com member is the messenger. What that member references is the source.

Ad hominem attacks against DP members are also fallacies.
 
Which is why I didn't make one.
If you think DP members are messengers and you attack the messenger personally then you are making an ad homimen attack. If you attack the messengers sources instead of addressing the message then you are attacking the messenger which is a fallacy.
 
The FBI was Wiki's source for the gun deaths and the US Census Bureau was the source for population and density. Those stats were then calculated that for every 100K people in each state there were X number of murders and that was calculated into a percentage and put into a Gun Murder Rate per 100K column.

The higher the percentage rate, the higher the chance of getting murdered by a gun in that state. States like New York and California with the highest Brady score also had lower murder rates per 100k than many southern states that have the lowest Brady score and the most gun ownership. Sorry I didn't realize this would turn out to be so complicated.

Here's the FBI webpage found under Sources on the Wiki webpage....

^ a b "Table 20: Murder by State, Types of Weapons, 2010". Uniform Crime Reports. Crime in the U.S. 2010. FBI.


And most of the states with low brady scores have rates equal or lower than New York and California. I didn't think it would be so hard to look at ALL the states as a whole, rather than picking out your two favorite ones, or singling out southern states, and ignoring the many others with low scores + low rates.
 
If you think DP members are messengers and you attack the messenger personally then you are making an ad homimen attack.
I completely agree.

If you attack the messengers sources instead of addressing the message then you are attacking the messenger which is a fallacy.
Source =/= messenger so attacking the source =/= attacking the messenger in any way, especially not personally. Attacking the source is attacking the message, by invalidating the statement.

For your educational benefit: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/
 
And most of the states with low brady scores have rates equal or lower than New York and California. I didn't think it would be so hard to look at ALL the states as a whole, rather than picking out your two favorite ones, or singling out southern states, and ignoring the many others with low scores + low rates.
No, they don't. The states are listed and those with lowest gun murder rate are at the top of the list and those with the highest are listed at the bottom. California is almost in the middle with a rate of 3.4%. Every state under California on the list has a higher gun murder rate and most of those are southern states with low Brady scores. New York had a rate of 2.7% with a very high Brady score.

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
That FBI link does not show gun deaths per 100,000, which was the statistic we were looking at. My sources do show that statistic. Anyway, gun deaths are gun deaths, nomatter how they happen, but I looked at huffington post, and it showed that the 2 states with the highest homicides per 100,000 are Louisiana and Mississippi, both of which are fairly low on the Brady score

No, gun deaths are not gun deaths, just like crime is not crime, and deaths are not deaths. Homicides, self injury, and suicide are three completely different issues, with different causes and factors, and are completely different when it comes to one's ideology and how they should be approached by society. You lose all intellectual credibility if you insist on conflating them together.
is
the FBI shows total gun homicides per state. Are you saying you are incapable of doing a simple calculation to yield the rate?

And no, the highest region for gun homicide rate is D.C. which is very restrictive, as well as having the lowest gun ownership rate. The second is Lousiana and Missouri, which yes, have low brady scores. The 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th, however, have relatively high scores. California, which ranks the highest in brady score, is also towards the top of the list.

Among the states with the lowest rates, more of them have low scores than do not.

You cannot simply look pick out the portion of the data which fits your argument. The 2nd and 3rd highest states have low scores, but guess what -- the two lowest states have low scores as well.

People like you are what give gun control advocates a bad name.
 
I completely agree.


Source =/= messenger so attacking the source =/= attacking the messenger in any way, especially not personally. Attacking the source is attacking the message, by invalidating the statement.

For your educational benefit: Logical Fallacies: The Fallacy Files
DP members are not the messengers, they are "the man" in hominem and their sources are the messengers. If you attack "the man" you are making an ad hominem attack. If you attack the man's source instead of the source's message then you are attacking the messenger.
 
DP members are not the messengers...
The DP member is the messenger.

If you attack "the man" you are making an ad hominem attack.
Which is why I don't attack my opponent. Instead I attack their argument and/or their source.

If you attack the man's source instead of the source's message then you are attacking the messenger.
That's just not true.
Exposition:

A debater commits the Ad Hominem Fallacy when he introduces irrelevant personal premisses about his opponent. Such red herrings may successfully distract the opponent or the audience from the topic of the debate.

Logical Fallacy: Argumentum ad Hominem

Have a goon night, Moot :2wave:
 
No, they don't. The states are listed and those with lowest gun murder rate are at the top of the list and those with the highest are listed at the bottom. California is almost in the middle with a rate of 3.4%. Every state under California on the list has a higher gun murder rate and most of those are southern states with low Brady scores. New York had a rate of 2.7% with a very high Brady score.

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~~~~

Take the 15 states with the lowest brady score

9 have a gun homicide rate equal or lower than New York, which you mentioned

Our of the remaining 6, 3 have a similar, or lower score than california

Only Louisiania and Missouri have a higher rate

D.C. has the highest gun homicide rate, and is also very restrictive + has the least amount of gun ownership.

~~~

Take the next 15 lowest brady scoring states -- all of them scoring lower than 10

9 -- over half -- have a lower -- often significantly lower gun homicide rate than your example of New York.
12 are lower than california
Only 3 of them have a higher rate than california

~~~

Out of the 13 states with the highest gun homicide rate, 7, or slightly more than half, have above average or high brady scores.

~~~

Out of the 15 states with the lowest gun homicide rate, only 5 have brady scores higher than 10.

~~~

Again, southern states and brady score are two different things. You cannot conflate the two. Southern states hardly represent those states with a low brady score. Out of the 15 states with the lowest brady score, only 2 are southern states.

But if you insist on bringing geography into the mix, out of the 12 states that have a higher murder rate than california, only 5 -- less than half are southern states. Even if geography was relevant, which it isn't, the fact clearly disprove your assertion that most of the states with a higher murder rate than california are southern.
 
Last edited:
No, gun deaths are not gun deaths, just like crime is not crime, and deaths are not deaths. Homicides, self injury, and suicide are three completely different issues, with different causes and factors, and are completely different when it comes to one's ideology and how they should be approached by society. You lose all intellectual credibility if you insist on conflating them together.
is
the FBI shows total gun homicides per state. Are you saying you are incapable of doing a simple calculation to yield the rate?

And no, the highest region for gun homicide rate is D.C. which is very restrictive, as well as having the lowest gun ownership rate. The second is Lousiana and Missouri, which yes, have low brady scores. The 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th, however, have relatively high scores. California, which ranks the highest in brady score, is also towards the top of the list.

Among the states with the lowest rates, more of them have low scores than do not.

You cannot simply look pick out the portion of the data which fits your argument. The 2nd and 3rd highest states have low scores, but guess what -- the two lowest states have low scores as well.

People like you are what give gun control advocates a bad name.
I'll have you know that the 2 states with the highest homicide rate, Louisiana and Mississippi, both are low on the Brady score. And the states with the fewest gun deaths are Hawaii and Massachusetts. Sure, in terms of gun deaths, they're not all murders, but they're still deaths, including possible other homicides such as manslaughter. And why are we just using the USA by the way? Australia has reduced its gun violence drastically, as has the UK through gun control
 
Back
Top Bottom