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Armed texas dad takes on three home intruders

Moot said:
In this case Wiki used the US census bureau and the FBI as it's data source. So unless your sources used the same then I'm going have to go with Wiki on this one.
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FBI linked to below....




Sources used in the video:



Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
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EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>
Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>
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Black Manta said:
And guess what? That study is old. The homicide rate dropped in Missouri below 2007 levels in 2011, and are lower than 2007 at 4.23% in 2012. So the study showed there was a temporary jump, and then without the law in place crime dropped even lower. Go figure. Where does that leave your old study now?
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Can I see some proof please?
 
The USA today article you mention is also a prime example of intellectual dishonesty -- and the media parroting it uncritically.

"Specifically, Fleeger pointed to states with many gun laws like Massachusetts, which had 3.4 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people, and New Jersey, which had 4.9 gun-deaths per 100,000 people. Conversely, he focused on states with less laws like Louisiana, which had 18 deaths per 100,000 individuals and Alaska, which had 17.5 deaths per 100,000 individuals."

First, he takes two high gun-law states, and points out that they have low gun homicide.

He then mentions Alaska, and mentions "death" -- rather than gun homicides. Comparing apples to organes.

Here is Alaska's total homicide rate.

http://www.ucrdatatool.gov/Search/Crime/State/RunCrimeStatebyState.cfm

Comparing gun homicide to gun homicide -- Alaska's rate is actually lower than the other two states mentioned.

FBI — Table 20

They also do the same with Louisiana -- mentioning total deaths, at 18, and not gun homicides (7.7), or even total homicides (10-12)

They pick out a few states to make their point, when there are just as many counter examples -- and they do so dishonestly on top of that.



Intellectual dishonesty to the max.
 
Moot said:
In this case Wiki used the US census bureau and the FBI as it's data source. So unless your sources used the same then I'm going have to go with Wiki on this one.
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I thought you were on my side! Whatever. I went onto the wiki and checked the sources. As it turned out, the statistic on the wiki showing gun deaths per 100,000 was not supported by the sources involved. So parts of what were on the wiki were true, but the part about deaths per 100,000 was not
 
mtguy8787 said:
Actually, its less than 1%

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

And for criminals with no previous convictions, background checks will do nothing -- which further reduces the significance of

Its extremely simplistic to think that since 1% of criminals get it from gun shows, then regulating gun shows will stop them.

As for your claim about gun control and gun violence, I already proved that false in my previous post.

Here's some more statistics for you -- using a more meaningful statistic -- gun ownership.

~~~

As one can see, in the low crime states, gun ownership is just as high as in the high crime states. Gun Ownership by State (washingtonpost.com)
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Without the gun crime and murder rate statistics to compare to the gun ownership rate you aren't proving anything. You just seem to posting without reading or understanding what your posting.
 
mtguy8787 said:
The data comes from the FBI, genius.

Also, quoting multiple news sources that cite the same data does not change your argument.

Those news sources you mention are also great at cherry picking facts, by picking two states, and comparing them.

If you look at the full set of data, you see that there are many states that score high on the brady scale, and also high in gun homicide, and many states that score low, and have low gun homicide. The data is all over the place.

Using methods in the studies that you mentioned -- aka combining all the data into one set and drawing a correlation, is a very weak tool to use when it comes to criminological analysis of different states.
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OK, show me the FBI site that shows the gun murders per 100,000 people
 
ostuffman said:
I thought you were on my side! Whatever. I went onto the wiki and checked the sources. As it turned out, the statistic on the wiki showing gun deaths per 100,000 was not supported by the sources involved. So parts of what were on the wiki were true, but the part about deaths per 100,000 was not
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And that's why wiki is not a valid source for anyone on either side of any issue.
 
ostuffman said:
I thought you were on my side! Whatever. I went onto the wiki and checked the sources. As it turned out, the statistic on the wiki showing gun deaths per 100,000 was not supported by the sources involved. So parts of what were on the wiki were true, but the part about deaths per 100,000 was not
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I like and use Wiki a lot, so it would be hard for me to be on your side on that one. But Wiki actually supports your arguement and the guy who first posted the Wiki link to supporty his, now has egg all over his face.

Just compare the percentage rate in the second to last column where is says "Gun Murders (rate per 100,000 inhabitants) 2010....

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those are the odds that you could be murdered by a gun if you lived in that state. As you can see on the chart, the odds /percentage rates are much higher in conservative southern states that don't have gun regulations than they are in more liberal states that have the strictest gun control.
 
Moot said:
I like and use Wiki a lot, so it would be hard for me to be on your side on that one. But Wiki actually supports your arguement and the guy who first posted it to supporty his, now has egg all over his face.

Just compare the percentage rate in the second to last column where is says "Gun Murders (rate per 100,000 inhabitants) 2010....

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those are the odds that you could be murdered by a gun if you lived in that state. As you can see on the chart, the percentage rates are much higher in conservative southern states that don't have gun regulations than they are in more liberal states that have the strictest gun control.
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The gun homicides per 100,000 on that wiki page are accurately calculated based on the FBI data that I posted.

If you organize the chart by Brady score, it shows that many states that score highly are high in gun homicide, and many states that score low, are low in gun homicide. The data does not support your assertion.


Gun ownership is also a much more meaningful statistic to use than gun restrictions, and I posted that data earlier.
 
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Jerry said:
And that's why wiki is not a valid source for anyone on either side of any issue.
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Wiki used the US census bureau and FBI data, so how is it not a valid source?

"...This article is a list of the U.S. states and the District of Columbia. The population data is the official data from the U.S. Census Bureau. The murder rates and gun murder rates were calculated based on the FBI reports and the official population of each state....see chart.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
 
Moot said:
Wiki used the US census bureau and FBI data, so how is it not a valid source?
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The FBI is the credible source. Wiki is not. A claim needs to originate from the FBI, not originate from Wiki.

Wiki can be a great tool for finding a credible source, but wiki itself is never a credible source.
 
Moot said:
As you can see on the chart, the odds /percentage rates are much higher in conservative southern states that don't have gun regulations than they are in more liberal states that have the strictest gun control.
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Also, youre conflating liberal vs. conservative with gun restrictions, which are two entirely different things. The data shows that many states on the lower end of the Brady scale have relative low rates, while many of the states that score high have rates equal or higher than many/most of the states on the low end.
 
Jerry said:
The FBI is the credible source. Wiki is not. A claim needs to originate from the FBI, not originate from Wiki.

Wiki can be a great tool for finding a credible source, but wiki itself is never a credible source.
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Thats why savvy people will check the source on wiki before using it. Its just often more convienent to use a wiki page. In this case, the FBI data only shows raw homicide figures. Its much more convenient to use the wiki page that already has a table of the calculated rates, than to calculate it all yourself.
 
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mtguy8787 said:
Actually, its less than 1%

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

And for criminals with no previous convictions, background checks will do nothing -- which further reduces the significance of

Its extremely simplistic to think that since 1% of criminals get it from gun shows, then regulating gun shows will stop them.

As for your claim about gun control and gun violence, I already proved that false in my previous post.

Here's some more statistics for you -- using a more meaningful statistic -- gun ownership.

~~~

As one can see, in the low crime states, gun ownership is just as high as in the high crime states.

D.c 16.5 - 3.8
Louisiana 7.7 - 44.1
Missouri 5.4 - 41.1
Maryland 5.1 - 21.1
South Carolina 4.5 - 42.3
Delaware 4.2 - 25.5
Michigan 4.2 - 38.4
Missisipi 4.0 - 55.3
Florida 3.9 - 24.5
Georgia 3.8 - 40.3
Arizona 3.6 - 31.1
Pennsylvania 3.6 - 34.7
California 3.4 - 21.3
New Mexico 3.3 - 34.8
Arkansas 3.2 - 55.8
Texas 3.2 - 35.9
Nevada 3.1 - 33.8
Virginia 3.1 - 35.1
North Carolina 3.0 - 41.3
Oklahoma 3.0 - 42.9
Alabama 2.8 - 51.7
Illinois 2.8 - 20.2
New Jersy 2.8 - 12.3
Alaska 2.8 - 57.8
Connecticut 2.7 - 16.7
Kentucky 2.7 - 47.7
New York 2.7 - 18.0
Ohio 2.7 - 32.4
Tennessee 2.5 - 43.9
Indiana 2.2 - 39.1
Kansas 2.2 - 42.1
Mass 1.8 - 12.6
Nebraska 1.8 - 38.6
Wisconsin 1.7 - 44.4
Rhode Island 1.5 - 12.8
West Virginia 1.5 - 55.4
Washingtin 1.4 - 33.1
Colorado 1.3 - 34.7
Montana 1.2 - 57.7
Minnesota 1.0 - 41.7
South Dakota 1.0 - 56.6
Oregon .9 - 39.8
Wyoming .9 - 59.7
Idaho .8 - 55.3
Maine .8 - 40.5
Utah .8 - 43.9
Iowa .7 - 42.8
North Dakota .6 - 50.7
Hawaii .5 - 8.7
New Hampshire .3 - 30.0
Vermont .3 - 42.0

Gun Ownership by State (washingtonpost.com)
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I don't care about how high the gun ownership is. You could have all people in a state own a gun, if they're all law abiding, I'm fine with that. But states with more gun control laws have less gun violence. According to both Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 statistics - states compared - Crime data on StateMaster and Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, the states with the highest amount of gun deaths per 100,000 are red states such as Alaska and Louisiana
 
Surtr said:
Good for him. Houston can be a rough place, and a personal firearm should be a requirement for anyone living there.
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Boy that sounds wonderful. Who needs Cairo when we have Houston. Does the Houston Chamber of Commerce put that in their brochure? I've got a stopover there. Can I rent a gun at the airport?
 
mtguy8787 said:
Thats why savvy people will check the source on wiki before using it. Its just often more convienent to use a wiki page. In this case, the FBI data only shows raw homicide figures. Its much more convenient to use the wiki page that already has a table of the calculated rates, than to calculate it all yourself.
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After checking the source wiki uses, if it's credible then savvy people use he source wiki used and not source wiki.
 
mtguy8787 said:
The gun homicides per 100,000 on that wiki page are accurately calculated based on the FBI data that I posted.
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I'm not disputing that.

If you organize the chart by Brady score, it shows that many states that score highly are high in gun homicide, and many states that score low, are low in gun homicide. The data does not support your assertion.
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It's the gun murder per 100K rate AND the Brady score together that you need to look at to make a valid comparison as to who has the higher murder rate vs the lowest/highest Brady score.


Gun ownership is also a much more meaningful statistic to use than gun restrictions, and I posted that data earlier.
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Even so, the WaPo chart still shows that the southern states have the highest gun ownership rate and when compared to the FBI stats they are the same states with the highest gun murder per 100k inhabitants. In otherwords, the data and the stats are not in your favor.
 
Moot said:
I like and use Wiki a lot, so it would be hard for me to be on your side on that one. But Wiki actually supports your arguement and the guy who first posted the Wiki link to supporty his, now has egg all over his face.

Just compare the percentage rate in the second to last column where is says "Gun Murders (rate per 100,000 inhabitants) 2010....

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those are the odds that you could be murdered by a gun if you lived in that state. As you can see on the chart, the odds /percentage rates are much higher in conservative southern states that don't have gun regulations than they are in more liberal states that have the strictest gun control.
Click to expand...
I'd also be lying if I said that I did not use the wiki a lot, but I always check the citations. Under his citations, I did not anywhere find another source supporting the column with gun deaths per 100,000. But you're right, all of the stats that I looked at show conservative southern states, and sometimes western states, do indeed have more gun deaths per 100,000 people
 
ostuffman said:
8
I don't care about how high the gun ownership is. You could have all people in a state own a gun, if they're all law abiding, I'm fine with that. But states with more gun control laws have less gun violence. According to both Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 statistics - states compared - Crime data on StateMaster and Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, the states with the highest amount of gun deaths per 100,000 are red states such as Alaska and Louisiana
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Jeezus, I already disproved this

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and posted the FBI links since you were too lazy to find them yourself.

Alaska has 2.7 gun homicides per 100,000, compared to:

California -- 3.4 (80 on the Brady scale)
New Jersey - 2.7/72 on the brady scale
New York -- 2.7/62
Maryland -- 5.1/45

and many others which rank relatively high on the scale.

Even if youre going to suck at looking at the data as a whole, please at least try to be honest.

Gun death =/= gun homicide, or total homicide. Deaths due to injury and suicide are a completely different issue.

Please look at ALL of the data in this link, which compares Brady score side by side with gun homicide.

Gun violence in the United States by state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The rate of gun ownership is relevant for people who argue that more guns = more gun crime.
 
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