Are you sure its the religion of Islam?

[akyron]

Religion isn't the problem persay. The problem is man's perversion of it..

Meh... Who else besides Man is going to interpret religion? Religion IS a large part of the problem because it tells people what to do and how to do it and people who disagree often pay a blood price for that deviation from the herd.
I understand the need to establish order and social moores but once the killing line is crossed it is extremely tough to rein in religions.
They take on a life of their own.

Thanks for your service GySgt.

 

[akyron]

I still have to believe that that democracy in the Middle East is possible.

I believe it is as well but you arent going to wipe out 3000 years of chaos in a dozen years either.

 

[MSgt]

Meh... Who else besides Man is going to interpret religion? Religion IS a large part of the problem because it tells people what to do and how to do it and people who disagree often pay a blood price for that deviation from the herd.
I understand the need to establish order and social moores but once the killing line is crossed it is extremely tough to rein in religions.
They take on a life of their own.

Thanks for your service GySgt.

Yeah, but religions change because men change them. In today's worldy society, you won't find armies of Christians marching across a border to force religion on another people. Bloody conflict between Catholics and Protestants do not exist. Like wise for the Hindu. As history has progressed, religion has shaped our societies and today religion is largely docile. It is seen as a means to peace, not through conflict, but through other means. Unfortunately, the Muslim world still embraces passed down traditions in a region that has been forgotten by history and this is the great seperation between the western world and them. Through their own suicidal design, they have been tossed aside and their reaction is to grasp at a fundemental belief in "Allah" for answers. It has been spilling out beyond their borders for a couple decades now. Where they are waging a religious war (as perverted and diverse as each individual wielder is), we are not.

 

[MSgt]

I believe it is as well but you arent going to wipe out 3000 years of chaos in a dozen years either.

Yep. This is why so many do not understand what this "War on Terror" is going to entail. So many people are looking for a clear cut "victory" with Iraq, but there won't be one. Iraq will not be the end. Agressive diplomacy is very much a part of this war - perhaps the most important. This will take generations.

 

[kal-el]

In today's worldy society, you won't find armies of Christians marching across a border to force religion on another people.

Maybe not, but isn't it the same thing in a military horde attacking and attemting to convert the Mid East to democracy.

 

[DeeJayH]

Maybe not, but isn't it the same thing in a military horde attacking and attemting to convert the Mid East to democracy.

you are confusing Liberation with oppression

 

[kal-el]

you are confusing Liberation with oppression

That's all a matter of perception.:2razz:

 

[SKILMATIC]

That's all a matter of perception.:2razz:

There is a very huge difference between liberation and oppression bud.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

There is a very huge difference between liberation and oppression bud.

Not a big difference in what qualifies for each though (based on PERCEPTION )

 

[SKILMATIC]

Not a big difference in what qualifies for each though (based on PERCEPTION )

Ok I will look at this with an open mind and be very hospitable to your perception. Now may I ask you very kindly can you please sell to me why you think that? Please convince me.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Ok I will look at this with an open mind and be very hospitable to your perception. Now may I ask you very kindly can you please sell to me why you think that? Please convince me.

No problem. Let's look at a topic I'm sure you're all familiar with, the Jihad (not the commonly held idea of a "holy war" to kill all the "infidels", but something more along the lines of the crusades with the goal being to convert.)

From the perspective of those commiting the Jihad, they are liberators because they are bringing the people to the light of Allah.

From the perspective of those being conquered, the ones commiting the Jihad are oppressing them by forcing their religion on them.

Another example: The Crusades. The crusaders felt they were "liberating" the holy land from the hands of the heathens, but those they were attacking felt quite the opposite.

Final analysis: Its all about which side of the fence your on.

 

[SKILMATIC]

No problem. Let's look at a topic I'm sure you're all familiar with, the Jihad (not the commonly held idea of a "holy war" to kill all the "infidels", but something more along the lines of the crusades with the goal being to convert.)

From the perspective of those commiting the Jihad, they are liberators because they are bringing the people to the light of Allah.

From the perspective of those being conquered, the ones commiting the Jihad are oppressing them by forcing their religion on them.

Another example: The Crusades. The crusaders felt they were "liberating" the holy land from the hands of the heathens, but those they were attacking felt quite the opposite.

Final analysis: Its all about which side of the fence your on.

Very well done. I do have to applaud you on such a great job.

Now let me ask you this. IYO, would you think if a group of people or nation is "liberating" a different group of people or a nation from tyranny and the majority of the people being "liberated" wanted to be "liberated" is it by definition "liberation" or "oppression?"

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Now let me ask you this. IYO, would you think if a group of people or nation is "liberating" a different group of people or a nation from tyranny and the majority of the people being "liberated" wanted to be "liberated" is it by definition "liberation" or "oppression?"

Ah, I see, an ambush. I'll not answer this because it answers itself, I think your fight is with kal-el or Champs if you want a flame war. I was actually just posting on the perception discussion, I couldn't give less of a damn whether we're "liberators" or "oppressors". What is, is.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Ah, I see, an ambush. I'll not answer this because it answers itself, I think your fight is with kal-el or Champs if you want a flame war. I was actually just posting on the perception discussion, I couldn't give less of a damn whether we're "liberators" or "oppressors". What is, is.

No I dont see it as an ambush; I see it as a logical discussion dont you? Have more faith in yourself bud. Although I will admit I usually always tussle with champs this isnt directed towards him.

However, your post on the perception is very exceptional now please I would like to have your concensus based on your very perception. It would really help me out in my perceptions in these matters. Thank you

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

No I dont see it as an ambush; I see it as a logical discussion dont you? Have more faith in yourself bud. Although I will admit I usually always tussle with champs this isnt directed towards him.

Ah, you perceive it as merely a cleverly laid trap to ensnare another poster perhaps? No I don't see it as a logical discussion. Any answer to that last question that isnt "liberation" (although under the conditions of the question "liberation" would be right, stubborn lefty's would have gone off on you about it) is a deathtrap.

However, your post on the perception is very exceptional now please I would like to have your concensus based on your very perception. It would really help me out in my perceptions in these matters. Thank you

I single person can't have a consensus, and that fact besides my perceptions of what? I don't really appreciate your sarcasm here as I don't see what I've done to deserve it. Please, enlighten me as to why I get the ass-kissing attitude, it's not like you.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Ah, you perceive it as merely a cleverly laid trap to ensnare another poster perhaps? No I don't see it as a logical discussion. Any answer to that last question that isnt "liberation" (although under the conditions of the question "liberation" would be right, stubborn lefty's would have gone off on you about it) is a deathtrap.

Ok so your answer was what? You lost me there on your elaborate answer.

I don't really appreciate your sarcasm here as I don't see what I've done to deserve it. Please, enlighten me as to why I get the ass-kissing attitude, it's not like you.

You find it as sarcasm? I politely ask you a question and you write it off as sarcasm? Whats wrong with you? I am seriously politley asking you questions and you are goiNg off like you haven't ever seen politeness before. How come?

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Ok so your answer was what? You lost me there on your elaborate answer.

Under the conditions of the question the answer would be "liberation". My point was the question itself was an invitation to a verbal brawl.

You find it as sarcasm? I politely ask you a question and you write it off as sarcasm? Whats wrong with you? I am seriously politley asking you questions and you are goiNg off like you haven't ever seen politeness before. How come?

With my experience with your posting style, and the "deathtrap" post before it, yes; I found it sarcastic. As I said, it's not your style, and frankly, it doesn't sound sincere. Always ready to be surprised however....

 

[SKILMATIC]

Under the conditions of the question the answer would be "liberation". My point was the question itself was an invitation to a verbal brawl.



With my experience with your posting style, and the "deathtrap" post before it, yes; I found it sarcastic. As I said, it's not your style, and frankly, it doesn't sound sincere. Always ready to be surprised however....

Well then if the answer is liberation I would also like to ask you what would be the ratio or percentage of the people that would call for this term "liberation?" Meaning how many would have to want to be "liberated" for it to be able to use the term liberation rightfully by both sides.? Would it be 70% wants to be liberated? 80%, 75%? IYO of course

Well maybe your experience isnt all that much. You should be a little more open minded dont you think? And I am glad you are ready. The key to life is be ready for a change and the ability to adapt.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Well then if the answer is liberation I would also like to ask you what would be the ratio or percentage of the people that would call for this term "liberation?" Meaning how many would have to want to be "liberated" for it to be able to use the term liberation rightfully by both sides.? Would it be 70% wants to be liberated? 80%, 75%? IYO of course

The question is irrelevant, what is, is. It doesn't matter how we lable it, or they lable it. The victors will judge the acts in the history books, and what we call it now doesn't mean a thing.

 

[SKILMATIC]

The question is irrelevant, what is, is. It doesn't matter how we lable it, or they lable it. The victors will judge the acts in the history books, and what we call it now doesn't mean a thing.

Its just a question. I didnt ask the history people I asked you. I asked for your opinion. I would love to have it. Please.

 

[tr1414]

I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?

Oh yeah, the Muslims are just great..... get a grip. These head-choppers want EVERYONE who does not belive as they do DEAD. That's something some of you liberals just don't get.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by tr1414:
Oh yeah, the Muslims are just great..... get a grip. These head-choppers want EVERYONE who does not belive as they do DEAD. That's something some of you liberals just don't get.

Tell me, what do you want to be when you grow up?

 

[ProudAmerican]

after reading the Quran, I am convinced of one thing.

There is no such thing as a so called "moderate muslem"

you are either a muslem, and doing what your book commands you to do.....or you are a misled individual that simply needs to find another religion.

see, the FOLLOWERS of the Quran want everyone that doesnt follow it DEAD.....and that includes the so called "moderate muslems"

see recent events in Jordan for example.

the so called "extremeists" are simply doing what they learned in their holy book. the so called "moderates" simply need to ditch islam all together, and find a religion that actually preaches what they are practicing.....because the last thing the Quran preaches is peace, love and harmony.

 

[DivineComedy]

I believe it is as well but you arent going to wipe out 3000 years of chaos in a dozen years either.

I agree!

A dozen years from now all I hope is that we do not have a stated policy of containment until regime change against anyone, like Clinton made perfectly CLEAR before the 400 cruise missile embers that he threw at Saddam, which prompted the February 23, 1998, fatwa of Osama’s Al Quacka.

A dozen years from now maybe Iranians will get tired of chanting “Death to America.“ I hated Carter too when I was in the military during the 444 days of glory. It is time for Iranians to move on, Carter is no longer president, I thought he was the Great Satan too, sitting with Michael Moore and all, but it is has been so long ago!

 

[DivineComedy]

after reading the Quran, I am convinced of one thing.

There is no such thing as a so called "moderate muslem"

If a Muslim would just treat me justly for supporting conservative O’Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas, and not lump me in with stinking supporters of “liberal” Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg, and Breyer that voted to drive them forth from their homes, it would be fine by me:

“[60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.”

Remember, “liberals” are in blue states, blue states. I live in a red state. Red states are good states that do not want to drive you forth from your homes. “Liberals” want to drive you forth from your homes and they live in blue states. See the map. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/