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Are you sure its the religion of Islam?

128shot

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I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?
 

TimmyBoy

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128shot said:
I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?

Islam is actually a wonderful religion and any Christian or Jew should study Islam in order to understand their own faiths much better. But like any religion, Islam has it's extremists who try to use religion as a justification for terrorism or to get others to commit terrorist attacks.
 

VTA

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128shot said:
Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?
You mean buying oil?
We've had a relationship with the Suad's since the 20's. Why? Because they are sitting on a resource we depend on to fuel our lifestyle.

America didn't invade and take, America formed a relationship and bought and continues to do so. Doing business.

Blaming America and it's dependance on oil or it's alliance with Israel is simplistic and there are far too many instances of atrocities against Non Western, Non-Israeli cultures, in the name of Islam to attest to that.

The problem isn't with the religion itself; no religion can be blamed, just mankinds perversion of it, as man has his own will and can do that. It's rhetoric to inflame and incite.

Unfortunately circumstance will not allow some to recognize this perversion and will take it as truth. The greatest crime is perverting the religion, misleading and taking advantage of the disadvantaged.
 

128shot

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VTA said:
You mean buying oil?
We've had a relationship with the Suad's since the 20's. Why? Because they are sitting on a resource we depend on to fuel our lifestyle.

America didn't invade and take, America formed a relationship and bought and continues to do so. Doing business.

Blaming America and it's dependance on oil or it's alliance with Israel is simplistic and there are far too many instances of atrocities against Non Western, Non-Israeli cultures, in the name of Islam to attest to that.

The problem isn't with the religion itself; no religion can be blamed, just mankinds perversion of it, as man has his own will and can do that. It's rhetoric to inflame and incite.

Unfortunately circumstance will not allow some to recognize this perversion and will take it as truth. The greatest crime is perverting the religion, misleading and taking advantage of the disadvantaged.


Yes, I totally forgot about Europe and their colonies all over the middle east....



hey, think outside the USA. When someone says "the west" it isn't just the United States of America.


Though, we did play a role in allowing some of these harsh dictators come to power, thats the cold war for ya....
 

VTA

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128shot said:
Yes, I totally forgot about Europe and their colonies all over the middle east....



hey, think outside the USA. When someone says "the west" it isn't just the United States of America.


Though, we did play a role in allowing some of these harsh dictators come to power, thats the cold war for ya....
I am thinking outside of the U.S.; more over I'm thinking of the overall actions of extremists... The brutalities in Thailand, the killings in Indonesia, the atrocities in Sudan, Egypt, etc, etc... All against Christians, Buddhists, Coptics, Muslims, etc, etc, all for the supposed Law of Islam, not at all in any way a kind of reaction to 'outside' meddling.

Islam may very well be a peaceful religion, but it sure isn't determined that way by it's own followers and the fault for that can only lie within the individual choices of those followers.

The moderates of the religion should be more vocal about the truths of the religion that're being perverted by these people.
 

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128shot said:
I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?
that would be why bush has said time and again that this is not a war on Islam
it is a war on radicals that HIGHJACKED the religion
 

128shot

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VTA said:
I am thinking outside of the U.S.; more over I'm thinking of the overall actions of extremists... The brutalities in Thailand, the killings in Indonesia, the atrocities in Sudan, Egypt, etc, etc... All against Christians, Buddhists, Coptics, Muslims, etc, etc, all for the supposed Law of Islam, not at all in any way a kind of reaction to 'outside' meddling.

Islam may very well be a peaceful religion, but it sure isn't determined that way by it's own followers and the fault for that can only lie within the individual choices of those followers.

The moderates of the religion should be more vocal about the truths of the religion that're being perverted by these people.

The problem is when they are vocal, and many many many of them are, its not heard, at all.
 

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128shot said:
I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?
yes quite true, and a factual account of it

America has preemptively ,and without compassion has tried to crush IRAQ freedom by installing a pro western GOVT. in IRAQ
because they coverd up the truth with lies in VITAM America
has not learned the lessons of Vietnam
that is if you try to stifle freedom you will be burned
 

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Canuck

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128shot said:
I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?


I think not, look at the history of the middle east since the time of Islam.



When they invaded certain lands, they muslims allowed them to still practiice their religion (christianity or Judaism) in peace, as long as they paid taxes.


When the muslims came roaring through what is now Iraq and Syria, they did the same. No harm, no foul.



A great islamic leader of the past once followed a christian through parts of Europe and the mid east owned by the Bryzanitine empire. They were leaders of peace.



Are you sure the religion hasn't been politicalized over the years (Starting in what is Saudi Arabia right now back in the early 1800s IMO) that its caused these problems? Our fettering and pestering in this area for oil and power ?
yes quite true, and a factual account of it

America has preemptively ,and without compassion has tried to crush IRAQ freedom by installing a pro western GOVT. in IRAQ
because they coverd up the truth with lies in VIETAM America
has not learned the lessons of Vietnam
that is if you try to stifle freedom you will be burned
 

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VTA

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128shot said:
The problem is when they are vocal, and many many many of them are, its not heard, at all.
More in line with how things they, when they are vocal, their own people kill them.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
Islam is actually a wonderful religion and any Christian or Jew should study Islam in order to understand their own faiths much better. But like any religion, Islam has it's extremists who try to use religion as a justification for terrorism or to get others to commit terrorist attacks.
How would Jews or Christians better understand their own faiths by a study of Islam?

What do you think these extremists are doing wrong according to Islam?
 

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Simply to answer the first question, how wouldn't it help you to study Islam? If you are confident in your views and truly believe, you shouldn't be afraid to be exposed to other view. Answer to the second question, The extremists are well, taking things to the extreme. They rape, pillage, and invoke terror into innoccent people. Any religion can be distorted, the messages of the Bible, Koran, etc. (no offense to other religions holy book(s) for leaving them out) have been used for personal gain for centuries. It is the fault of these radicals which cause the Islamic religon to be frowned upon.
 

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liberal1,

I agree that Christians and Jews should learn all they can about Islam...however, they will not gain a better understanding of their own faith by doing so. They will simply learn of Islam.

Concerning your thoughts on Extremism, I still would like explained what Al Qaeda is doing wrong according to Islam. You say that any religion can be distorted...I agree, I just don't think Al Qaeda is doing so.
 

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Whoever suppresseth his anger, when he hath in his power to show it, God will give him great reward.
The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear to lie.
When the bier of anyone passeth by thee, whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim, rise to thy feet."
Those who earn an honest living are the beloved of God.

These and more can be found at http://www.twf.org/Sayings.html
 

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Liberal1,

I hate to burst your bubble...however the record does not support your Quotes. Now...he may have said those things you quote him as saying, but it seems maybe those quotes are out of context. What does "is" mean...that type of thing. Below is hadith that narrates Muhammad ordering an assassination.

Book 019, Number 4436:
It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who will kill Ka'b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit). He said: Talk (as you like). So, Muhammad b. Maslama came to Ka'b and talked to him, referred to the old friendship between them and said: This man (i. e. the Holy Prophet) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship. When be heard this, Ka'b said: By God, you will be put to more trouble by him. Muhammad b. Maslama said: No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan. He said: What will you mortgage? He said: What do you want? He said: Pledge me your women. He said: You are the most handsome of the Arabs; should we pledge our women to you? He said: Pledge me your children. He said: The son of one of us may abuse us saying that he was pledged for two wasqs of dates, but we can pledge you (cur) weapons. He said: All right. Then Muhammad b. Maslama promised that he would come to him with Harith, Abu 'Abs b. Jabr and Abbad b. Bishr. So they came and called upon him at night. He came down to them. Sufyan says that all the narrators except 'Amr have stated that his wife said: I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder. He said: It is only Muhammad b. Maslama and his foster-brother, Abu Na'ila. When a gentleman is called at night even it to be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call. Muhammad said to his companions: As he comes down, I will extend my hands towards his head and when I hold him fast, you should do your job. So when he came down and he was holding his cloak under his arm, they said to him: We sense from you a very fine smell. He said: Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia. He said: Allow me to smell (the scent on your head). He said: Yes, you may smell. So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: Allow me to do so (once again). He then held his head fast and said to his companions: Do your job. And they killed him.

THE MURDER OF KA'B B. ASHRAF
 

akyron

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mike49 said:
liberal1,

I agree that Christians and Jews should learn all they can about Islam...
That is true.


Sun Tzu had a saying about that....
 

liberal1

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mike49 said:
liberal1,

Concerning your thoughts on Extremism, I still would like explained what Al Qaeda is doing wrong according to Islam. You say that any religion can be distorted...I agree, I just don't think Al Qaeda is doing so.
Al Qaeda is killing people and they sometimes use suicide to carry out their measures. These actions are both rejected by the Koran. Also, by saying that Islam is not being distorted by Al Qaeda, are you implying that Islam does endorse the use of violence, killing, torture, etc.?
 

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128shot said:
I see alot of people around here cursing and muttering bad things about Islam and thats why we have terrorists is because the religion says so etc etc



Is this really true?
?
I think the case could be made for any religion on earth to be played in a negative light.


'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities," said Voltaire. The books of the major religions contain passages that are absurd and worse than absurd. What are today's kindly Christians to make of this instruction to genocide in the Bible: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)?

What are modern-thinking Muslim men to make of the list in the Koran of women who are forbidden to them, which includes (quite rightly!) their mothers, daughters, mothers-in-law, daughters-in-law, and also married women, "except those whom you own as slaves"?

It's become obligatory when commenting on Islamic terrorism to say that this is a distortion of Islam, that Islam is a religion of peace. In fact, as some reformist Muslims acknowledge, the Koran also contains what Christian reformers say the Bible contains: "sins of scripture". In the Koran can be found passages that promote peace and passages that urge killing. Like the Bible, it is contradictory and confusing. An impartial reader might wonder why God couldn't have made his intentions more easily understandable."



I think Gods intentions are misunderstood because man is inherently a dumbasss.
 

akyron

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liberal1 said:
Also, by saying that Islam is not being distorted by Al Qaeda, are you implying that Islam does endorse the use of violence, killing, torture, etc.?

I guess it depends on how you define the word "Good".

Allah rewards those who kill for him. Islamic terrorists go to the Islamic paradise.



The Messenger in your rear is calling you
from your rear, urging you to fight.”

Its kind of funny how mo was always a REMF.


Men screwed this all up not Gods.
 

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liberal1 said:
Al Qaeda is killing people and they sometimes use suicide to carry out their measures. These actions are both rejected by the Koran. Also, by saying that Islam is not being distorted by Al Qaeda, are you implying that Islam does endorse the use of violence, killing, torture, etc.?
They do not consider it suicide. They consider it a mission...a military operation, with the tools they have. This is how Muslims get around the suicide prohibition. These suicides die for a purpose...not simply because they have problems...they are dying while killing the infidel, in support of Islam.

As far as Islam endorsing 'violence, killing, torture, etc.', If you consider Islam to be the Koran, Sunnah, and actions by some Muslims...then yes, Islam does endorse 'violence, killing, torture, etc.'.
 

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akyron said:
What are today's kindly Christians to make of this instruction to genocide in the Bible: "Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)?

I think Gods intentions are misunderstood because man is inherently a dumbasss.
The last time I checked there are no followers of Baal-peor nor any obviously sexual “plague” associated with the whoredom and religion of the Midianites to be worried about.

“Numbers 25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Numbers 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
Numbers 25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baal-peor.”

“Numbers 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.”

It was a plague, and they were killing Israelites that had been exposed to it! So that is not genocide! You should learn to actually read what is written! It only took ten minutes to see your error.

Now if a deadly sexual plague shows up and it is associated with a religion followed by a specific group of people, that will not stop their beliefs, I do not think only Christians would be worried about its spread.

I do not think they knew about how plagues were spread with that level of technology, and if they could not convince the followers of Baal-peor to abandon their practices…

I can see your compatriot of the time saying there is “no reported case” of it being spread a certain way. Can’t get it from a dentist, right? Was it only spread in the bathhouses and through sexual contact? Was an ancient camel driver (flight attendant from New York to San Francisco) on record (video) telling the doctor he was going to continue going to the bathhouses whoring, even though he knew he had a strange new disease that was known at the time to only afflict one group of people? We just do not have enough information about that particular ancient plague to know why such extreme measures were taken.

“Numbers 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

At their level of medical technology they could only know for certain if a woman was a virgin, DO YOU UNDERSTAND? It is all about trust!

*****

As for Islam it depends upon interpretations of verses like these:

“[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”

“[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”

A “peaceful” Moslem prior to 911 in a message board topic in defense of the Taliban interpreted the first verse [2.256] for me so as to be consistent with predestination and Osama’s obvious interpretation:

“World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.”

It would be stupid not to ask any follower of Islam, “how do you interpret those verses?” If they refuse to answer any questions and just say read the Koran after you have questions, as that Taliban and after 911 Osama mujahideen supporter said, I say that it is not irrational to fear them. It is all about trust!

We are supposed to treat people as we would have them treat us, but the 911 Al Quacka attackers wearing civilian dress and a suicide belt hidden under an Al Quacka’s women’s dress to blow up a wedding violates that golden rule. Hundreds of Iraqis leapt to their deaths not in fear of our troops, or George Bush, but in fear of what they could not trust.

I agree with your last sentence.
 

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The history of Islam is not relevent to today's violence and when our politicians or well meaning ignorant ideologists say that Islam is not the problem - they are utterly wrong.

Our focus on the Middle East over the decades has been so exclusive that the majority has come to see Islam as defined by the Arab. But the Islam of the Middle East is as fixed, as unreflective, and ultimately as brittle as concrete. People don’t realize that Islam is the youngest of the world’s great religions, that it is still very much a work-in-progress on its vast frontiers, and that its forms are at least as various as the countless confessions and sects of Christendom. Islam is a vivid, dynamic, and vibrant religion of changing shape and potential. But Islam’s local identities are far from decided in its struggling borderlands, and, in times of tumult, any religion can turn toward the darkness as easily as toward the light. This struggle between religious forms and between prescriptive and repressive doctrine of faiths, is one of the two great strategic issues of our time—along with the redefinition of the socio-economic roles of women, their transition from being the property of men to being equal partners with men (which is the most profound social development in human history).

The hard-core terrorists spawned by the breakdown of the Middle East quote the Koran. They wear Muslim garments. They perform the daily rituals prescribed by the faith into which they were born. But all of us, in the West and the Middle East, have mistaken the identity of these butchers. They are not simply “rogues” of Islam. This is a civilization. We live in an age of change so profound that entire cultures cannot cope with the stress. We are dealing with a region of people who seek to blame anyone but themselves for the ruin of their societies that they themselves have created. They seek answers to why the enemies of "Allah" have prospered when they have not. The Perversion of Islam that exists in the Middle East is a symptom of decay. Saddam, Bin Ladden, Khomeini, Khudafi, etc are all symptoms of decay. Preventing as many attacks as we can, killing or capturing terrorists, destroying terrorist organizations - are essential goals, but they focus on surface tumors while ignoring the cancer beneath. It is possible to recognize that the majority of the lower-rank terrorists whose lives their overlords throw away so callously have been set up psychologically by the corruption and hopelessness of their societies.

In the decaying Arab world, Islam is the problem—because of the way bitter old men interpret and deform its more humane precepts while embracing its cruelest injunctions. The accusations leveled against us by greedy and embittered men fall upon the ears of those anxious for someone to blame for the ruin of their societies, for the local extermination of opportunities, and for the poverty guaranteed by the brute corruption of their compatriots and the selfish choices of their own leaders to remain in power. Islam certainly is not hateful in its essence—but a disproportionate number of its current adherents need to hate to avoid the agony of self-knowledge. Religious intolerance always returns in times of doubt and disorder. Fundamentalist terrorism has not arisen despite the progress the world has made, but because of it. Despite the lucrative resource the Arab elite hoards from their people, the Middle East has no competitive front with the western world. There is not one single world class university, a complete restriction of the free flow of information, rampant racism and bigotry, complete inequality, and the subjegation of women. The populations of the Middle East blew it. They've failed. In times of trouble, men and women cling to what they know. They seek simple answers to daunting complexities - And religious extremists around the world, in every major religion throughout history, have been delighted to provide those simple answers. It does not matter if those answers are true, so long as they shift blame from the believer’s shoulders and promise punishment to enemies, real or imagined. History has seen human beings react to cultural crises by fleeing into cults that sought revenge. Recently, after the bombings, a Jordanian Muslim said that, "He supported Al-Queda's fight against Americans in Iraq, because America and Israel are their enemy." He then said that, "When Al-Queda started targetting Muslims, he stopped supporting them because he could not understand it." In other words, it was OK and encouraged as long as they were merely killing American civilians. Instead of returning to a "pure" Islam, the terrorists from this civilization are building a blood cult, a deformed offshoot of their faith that revives the most primitive and grotesque of religious practices that many other religions have partaken throughout history. This crisis has never been as intense as in the Middle East, where treasured values and inherited behaviors simply do not work in the 21st century.

This is where terrorism has been bred and this is what this "War on Terror" is about. Now, how does any President "declare war" on this? Keep in mind....we and the rest of the world, still need their oil.
 
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Islam in its krux is the problem. It is very simple to understand if you can understand putting things in their proper context.

Their whole ideology is predicated on a "all or nothing" attitude. And this former world in its democratic or republic state is all predicated on compromise which isnt in their vocabulary. So theres already a intersection of what should be a working function in a mathematical sense. Mathematically their ideology in concordance to this world doesn't work. And it is showing all across the globe.

In the Quran it teaches to kill and extrapulate the non beleiver or Allah. And again this is in their Quran. People are fed this kind of stuff from birth to present age and the people have a choice whethor or not they want to remain passive in their teachings or active(meaning do something about it which woull dbe terrorism). Now in their terms what they are doing isnt terror. It is a "holy war." Which they feel is ok because it is an order from their "god".

Now there of course is alot more to it, but that's basically the foundation of it.
 

DeeJayH

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would love to know

WHICH COUNTRY, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, HAD THE STRONGEST MILITARY, PERCEIVED, OR ACTUAL? and did that ahve anything to do with why IRA2q was targeted?
 

SKILMATIC

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DeeJayH said:
would love to know

WHICH COUNTRY, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, HAD THE STRONGEST MILITARY, PERCEIVED, OR ACTUAL? and did that ahve anything to do with why IRA2q was targeted?
Actual was Iraq. However, Israel would be able to win any war becasue they are backed by us.
 
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