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Are Americans still worthy of having the 2nd Amendment?

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again? In my opinion I don't know they would be so willing to grant us that privilege again to be honest. Yes, statistically, with the amount of guns available in this country versus the amount of people versus the amount of gun-related crimes it may not seem that dramatic when put into perspective, but with the original intent of the 2nd amendment allowing for the creation of civilian militia and the right to have arms in order to ensure freedom from tyranny, have we drifted away from the spirit of that freedom and slowly been drifting into simply being poor stewards of such a responsibility to the point that we possibly don't deserve such freedom anymore as a society? I'm not calling for an overthrow of the constitution anything like that, I'm simply just asking a hypothetical question. Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?
 

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It is becoming rather pointless to have a 2A to supposedly protect us from tyranny, when we just outright vote into power.
 

ttwtt78640

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The better question is whether today's SCOTUS would accept converting a constitutional right into a state issued privilege or whether repeal of the 2A is acceptable.

BTW, this is not in any way "breaking news".
 

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again? In my opinion I don't know they would be so willing to grant us that privilege again to be honest. Yes, statistically, with the amount of guns available in this country versus the amount of people versus the amount of gun-related crimes it may not seem that dramatic when put into perspective, but with the original intent of the 2nd amendment allowing for the creation of civilian militia and the right to have arms in order to ensure freedom from tyranny, have we drifted away from the spirit of that freedom and slowly been drifting into simply being poor stewards of such a responsibility to the point that we possibly don't deserve such freedom anymore as a society? I'm not calling for an overthrow of the constitution anything like that, I'm simply just asking a hypothetical question. Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?

There's nothing which supposedly makes us "unworthy" of the Second Amendment which wouldn't also make us unworthy of self-government as a whole.

The issues that the Framers had in mind with the Second Amendment are eternal. They don't change.

The Framers, of course, never saw it as "granting a privilege," but protecting a pre-existing right.
 
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The better question is whether today's SCOTUS would accept converting a constitutional right into a state issued privilege or whether repeal of the 2A is acceptable.

BTW, this is not in any way "breaking news".

Ok so I put it in the wrong place here. Maybe somebody can move it?
 

WCH

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Are we to assume there weren't dozens of other reasons to have firearms back in the time of our founding? mass shootings, 1000s of gun related deaths, foreign and domestics threats, political fights, tyrannical entities, etc....
 

WCH

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Ok so I put it in the wrong place here. Maybe somebody can move it?

While you at it, break it up into paragraphs for easier consumption . Por Favor.

You can notify a Mod that can help you move it. [report]
 

gmeyers1944

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We need the 2nd Amendment now more than ever before. People are not being taught right from wrong anymore. Where are people going to kill other people? They mostly go to places (gun free zones) where they can be reasonably sure that no one will shoot back.
 

OrphanSlug

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again? In my opinion I don't know they would be so willing to grant us that privilege again to be honest. Yes, statistically, with the amount of guns available in this country versus the amount of people versus the amount of gun-related crimes it may not seem that dramatic when put into perspective, but with the original intent of the 2nd amendment allowing for the creation of civilian militia and the right to have arms in order to ensure freedom from tyranny, have we drifted away from the spirit of that freedom and slowly been drifting into simply being poor stewards of such a responsibility to the point that we possibly don't deserve such freedom anymore as a society? I'm not calling for an overthrow of the constitution anything like that, I'm simply just asking a hypothetical question. Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?

This question is routinely asked, even if phrase slightly differently as we go. What we ultimately face is a question on the purpose of rights in relation to the impact on a society.

But that all avoids the point, the question itself purposely avoids talking about the person that harms and focuses on an inanimate object as the fault. Said another way, it assumes we are willing to exchange rights applied to everyone because of the percentage that harms someone. Worse, we assume people will stop harming one another if we rethink the 2nd Amendment.

What we have little evidence of is people all of a sudden not being willing to harm one another because we restrict one means to use to do so.

If all rights are held to the standard "abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege" you turn over to authority that standard to apply to far more than just the 2nd Amendment. Sure, you might get your way on removing some percentage of guns out there but what you also do is empower governance to ultimately decide whatever other rights you might lose no matter if you agree with those or not.

What I would agree to is something here has to give, but at the same time if we question the right we question everyone because of the few. Another dangerous standard.
 

WCH

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There's nothing which supposedly makes us "unworthy" of the Second Amendment which wouldn't also make us unworthy of self-government as a whole.

The issues that the Framers had in mind with the Second Amendment are eternal. They don't change.

The Framers, of course, never saw it as "granting a privilege," but protecting a pre-existing right.

An inalienable right of self preservation bestowed upon us by our Creator.
 

ecofarm

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An inalienable right of self preservation bestowed upon us by our Creator.

Aka

A universal and thus socially natural agreement among all free men. The Creator part means natural not dependent on a deity.
 

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There's nothing which supposedly makes us "unworthy" of the Second Amendment which wouldn't also make us unworthy of self-government as a whole.

The issues that the Framers had in mind with the Second Amendment are eternal. They don't change.

The Framers, of course, never saw it as "granting a privilege," but protecting a pre-existing right.
Appealing to what the founders believed is still an argument from authority, even if their ideas are the law.
 

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Are Americans still worthy of having the 2nd Amendment?

Yes, Law abiding citizens are. I do support background checks for all private and commercial sales. Those who are felons should regain their right after a determined amount of time depending on the crime committed. The more violent the crime the longer the time before they can regain the right.
 

Harshaw

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Appealing to what the founders believed is still an argument from authority, even if their ideas are the law.

:shrug: You should read the OP better, because she specifically asked what the Framers thought or would think. It's what the thread is about.
 

Rexedgar

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An inalienable right of self preservation bestowed upon us by our Creator.

What??? Our “creator” wanted us to have guns? :doh
 

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:shrug: You should read the OP better, because she specifically asked what the Framers thought or would think. It's what the thread is about.
I'm aware of that.

Nobody can possibly know what the position of the framers would be today.
 

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What??? Our “creator” wanted us to have guns? :doh
Our creator wanted all of us to use 69 every night, it's in the Bible I tell ya'!

See, we can make religious declarations without evidence, too.:2razz:
 

Rexedgar

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Our creator wanted all of us to use 69 every night, it's in the Bible I tell ya'!

See, we can make religious declarations without evidence, too.:2razz:

Let go my ears; I know what I’m doing! :shock:
 

Harshaw

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I'm aware of that.

Nobody can possibly know what the position of the framers would be today.

If you were aware of it, your first response to me doesn't make any sense.

You're wrong, though; one can know what the position of the Framers was at the time, the reasons why they held those positions, and, understanding that those reasons haven't changed -- and if anything, events of the 20th century illustrate them even more starkly -- conclude that they've have no reason to change those positions.

But you have to understand those whats and whys in the first place, of course.

Not that I even said what the Framers would think today. I said the issues they had mind are the same today (and indeed, eternal).
 

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again? In my opinion I don't know they would be so willing to grant us that privilege again to be honest. Yes, statistically, with the amount of guns available in this country versus the amount of people versus the amount of gun-related crimes it may not seem that dramatic when put into perspective, but with the original intent of the 2nd amendment allowing for the creation of civilian militia and the right to have arms in order to ensure freedom from tyranny, have we drifted away from the spirit of that freedom and slowly been drifting into simply being poor stewards of such a responsibility to the point that we possibly don't deserve such freedom anymore as a society? I'm not calling for an overthrow of the constitution anything like that, I'm simply just asking a hypothetical question. Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?

It's irrelevant. No matter what, it can only be changed via an Article 5 convention. It's a right, not a privilege.
 

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Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?

If I were to answer the question glibly: No. If I were to give a more full answer, FirstTracksGirl, first, I would say that the vast, vast, vast majority of gun owners in the United States who number in the tens of millions have shown incredible responsibility in keeping and bearing their firearms. Second, and more importantly, the idea that some people have abused their rights or outright engaged in criminal activity because their rights were suspended (in some cases, they were stripped of the right to to keep and bear arms) to the point that the people must entrust the safety of their lives to the government (whether military, police or intelligence forces) and forego the right to effective self defense to be the final insurance of their lives and liberty is a dangerous notion.
 

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This isn't terribly relevant but I felt I needed to say it: the 2nd amendment is still needed because it is not always feasible to rely on the law enforcement to protect one and one's loved ones. When a criminal breaks into your house, calling the 911 (assuming you even get the opportunity to do so) will have been too late because it takes time for the police to arrive, and by the time that happens, you will have been robbed and your female relatives raped.
 

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There's nothing which supposedly makes us "unworthy" of the Second Amendment which wouldn't also make us unworthy of self-government as a whole.

The issues that the Framers had in mind with the Second Amendment are eternal. They don't change.

The Framers, of course, never saw it as "granting a privilege," but protecting a pre-existing right.

When a society becomes inclined to raid the treasury at the ballot box, the whole premise of representative government comes into question.
 

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again? In my opinion I don't know they would be so willing to grant us that privilege again to be honest. Yes, statistically, with the amount of guns available in this country versus the amount of people versus the amount of gun-related crimes it may not seem that dramatic when put into perspective, but with the original intent of the 2nd amendment allowing for the creation of civilian militia and the right to have arms in order to ensure freedom from tyranny, have we drifted away from the spirit of that freedom and slowly been drifting into simply being poor stewards of such a responsibility to the point that we possibly don't deserve such freedom anymore as a society? I'm not calling for an overthrow of the constitution anything like that, I'm simply just asking a hypothetical question. Have we abused or ignored that right to the point to where we warrant a loss of that privilege if we continue along this path?

Hypothetically, would it possible for members of a society (say in the far future) to abuse the right to freedom of speech to a point where they warrant an across-the-board loss of that privilege? Where the government would need to assume control of everything that is said in public or private in order to prevent all dangerous speech?

I posit that even taking the right to free speech away from certain individuals and groups who abuse it could be problematic. An-across-the-board repeal would be a non-starter if I had anything to say about it, (and wouldn't make sense in my view.) I feel similarly about the right to bear arms: Taking away that right from certain individuals and groups (felons for instance,) makes some sense in certain cases. But an across the board repeal makes no sense to me.
 

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When the Bill of Rights was being written and the 2nd Amendment was being described out in that document by the founding fathers do you think they ever expected tens of thousands of gun-related deaths per year, mass shootings, and constant political fights over the topic? If they could go back in time and do it over again would they so graciously provide us with such a responsibility and freedom again?

~snipped your opinion because I don't really care about it~

I don't think the Founding Fathers would be too concerned, except for asking why we haven't changed the Constitution by using the methods they wrote into it. They might think people should make their own decisions and take the necessary action instead of asking them to fix things.
 
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