An article about Trans studies...

[Goshin]

Why do you think some people say this?

... because they do... obviously...

 

[Jredbaron96]

... because they do... obviously...

Okay, and you disagree that they think that, or...?

 

[Goshin]

Okay, and you disagree that they think that, or...?

Get to the point.

 

[BrotherFease]

You're aware that the guidelines set by the AMA and APA have changed dramatically in the past couple of decades? Gender dysphoria was previously considered a mental illness. I suspect that had more to do with political ideology than science.


If I tell the doctor I'm a kangaroo, they send me for psychiatric therapy.
If I tell the doctor I'm a woman, despite having male anatomy, they offer me "gender reassigment"... being mutilated into a rough facsimile of the other gender, but still without many of the fundamental characteristics because those have to be inborn.
It's the only delusion we cater to. Every other delusion, we recognize as such and attempt to treat by convincing the patient they are not, in fact, a kangaroo/etc.

In 2012, the AMA and APA did change their guidelines. The term used to be Gender Identity Disorder (GID), now it is Gender Dysphoria (GD). This was due to scientific research on the subject and changing where we place certain types of mental conditions. I don't see any dramatic changes. There are people in this would who feel they were born in the wrong body and it's causing them distress. That element has never changed. Transitioning has been the best form of treating symptoms of GD.

The second part you wrote goes off the deep end. Gender is about sociology and psychology. Making the "I feel like a tomato plant/attack helicopter/Kangaroo" argument misses the point completely. We have fistful of studies on the uniqueness of the transgender brain, compared to a typical male or female.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Get to the point.

" being mutilated into a rough facsimile of the other gender, but still without many of the fundamental characteristics because those have to be inborn."

Being trans is something people are "born" with. The human body does not operate on a binary switch.

 

[Goshin]

In 2012, the AMA and APA did change their guidelines. The term used to be Gender Identity Disorder (GID), now it is Gender Dysphoria (GD). This was due to scientific research on the subject and changing where we place certain types of mental conditions. I don't see any dramatic changes. There are people in this would who feel they were born in the wrong body and it's causing them distress. That element has never changed. Transitioning has been the best form of treating symptoms of GD.

The second part you wrote goes off the deep end. Gender is about sociology and psychology. Making the "I feel like a tomato plant/attack helicopter/Kangaroo" argument misses the point completely. We have fistful of studies on the uniqueness of the transgender brain, compared to a typical male or female.

I'm aware of the studies.

So they have an atypical brain. TMK we do not have certain data that they were born with an atypical brain, or whether the brain changed over time. I asked Captain Courtesy (a shrink specializing in sexual problems in young people) about this some years ago and he acknowledged that there was some uncertainty about this.

Well known that mental illness can alter brain structure and chemistry, and vice-versa.

Furthermore I have to question if the growing contingent of trans, non-binary etc youth could possibly be a result of classical gender dysphoria (a tiny fraction of a percent historically), or if it is a social phenomenon resulting from the embrace of trans/nb as a "celebrated" group.

 

[Goshin]

" being mutilated into a rough facsimile of the other gender, but still without many of the fundamental characteristics because those have to be inborn."

Being trans is something people are "born" with. The human body does not operate on a binary switch.

Highly debatable.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Highly debatable.

Which part?

 

[BrotherFease]

I'm aware of the studies.

So they have an atypical brain. TMK we do not have certain data that they were born with an atypical brain, or whether the brain changed over time. I asked Captain Courtesy (a shrink specializing in sexual problems in young people) about this some years ago and he acknowledged that there was some uncertainty about this.

Well known that mental illness can alter brain structure and chemistry, and vice-versa.

Furthermore I have to question if the growing contingent of trans, non-binary etc youth could possibly be a result of classical gender dysphoria (a tiny fraction of a percent historically), or if it is a social phenomenon resulting from the embrace of trans/nb as a "celebrated" group.

Lets start off by making something clear: Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean, you have GD or have a major/significant case of it. There are transgender people who simply social transition and that's it. No medical intervention. If you read what the APA and AMA say about this subject matter, they make this very clear. The articles in the original post does not make such a distinction, which is why what they wrote is complete and utter nonsense.

What exactly are you trying to argue? There seems to be a lot of jumping going around here. What do you exactly disagree with the AMA and APA community on?

The growing trend has everything to do with more social acceptance. Statistically, we're talking about less than 0.8% of the U.S population. .6% among adults. .7% among teens. In other words, why are we making a big deal out of a tiny faction of the population? People are acting this is somehow 10-40% of the population.

 

[Goshin]

Lets start off by making something clear: Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean, you have GD or have a major/significant case of it. There are transgender people who simply social transition and that's it. No medical intervention. If you read what the APA and AMA say about this subject matter, they make this very clear. The articles in the original post does not make such a distinction, which is why what they wrote is complete and utter nonsense.

What exactly are you trying to argue? There seems to be a lot of jumping going around here. What do you exactly disagree with the AMA and APA community on?

The growing trend has everything to do with more social acceptance. Statistically, we're talking about less than 0.8% of the U.S population. .6% among adults. .7% among teens. In other words, why are we making a big deal out of a tiny faction of the population? People are acting this is somehow 10-40% of the population.

NBC says 5% of young people self-identify as trans or nonbinary.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ansgender-nonbinary-us-survey-finds-rcna32315

A survey in Pittsburg High Schools said 1 in 10 identify as other-than-birth-sex...

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ntify-gender-diverse-pittsburgh-study-rcna993

I've seen other surveys that showed higher numbers among the young.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is a result of actual, clinical gender dysphoria, but is rather a social phenomenon resulting from it suddenly being "cool" to be trans/nb/etc.

I feel concern that some of these young people self-identifying this way may medically transition and come to regret it. Meanwhile there are the issues of born-men competing in women's sports, etc.

 

[Jredbaron96]

It seems extremely unlikely that this is a result of actual, clinical gender dysphoria, but is rather a social phenomenon resulting from it suddenly being "cool" to be trans/nb/etc.

I have no doubt there are people there who self-diagnose or similar, or people who say they are because they feel it makes them special. It's the same way we have people who pretend to be color blind, cancer survivors, or other.

But just as people faking being 9/11 survivors don't change the actual experience of genuine survivors, people trying to stand out or make themselves feel special doesn't distract from real trans people.

 

[BrotherFease]

NBC says 5% of young people self-identify as trans or nonbinary.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ansgender-nonbinary-us-survey-finds-rcna32315

A survey in Pittsburg High Schools said 1 in 10 identify as other-than-birth-sex...

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ntify-gender-diverse-pittsburgh-study-rcna993

I've seen other surveys that showed higher numbers among the young.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is a result of actual, clinical gender dysphoria, but is rather a social phenomenon resulting from it suddenly being "cool" to be trans/nb/etc.

I feel concern that some of these young people self-identifying this way may medically transition and come to regret it. Meanwhile there are the issues of born-men competing in women's sports, etc.

You're jumping again. Lets start from the beginning. You started out by objecting to the mainstream science on transgenderism. What is your objection exactly?

 

[Goshin]

Lets start from the beginning.

Let's not. The dog wants to go walkies, and that sounds like lots more fun just the now.

 

[RAMOSS]

Science doesn't support the social con, regressive view on these issues.

Here's the link:

What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know

Overview We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%)...

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu

One key that it looks like is signifigent is

4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

The articles that were cherry picked by the anti-gay person promoting his anti-trans book were from 2011 or earlier.

 

[buck]

One key that it looks like is signifigent is



The articles that were cherry picked by the anti-gay person promoting his anti-trans book were from 2011 or earlier.

There are a lot of problems with the "what we know" project. From leaving out studies showing higher regret rates, to many of the studies having large drop out rates (up to 70%) and even some studies being cited that don't support the conclusions they claim.

For example, here is a study they put under the shows benefits, but this should be included under the mixed/null at the absolute best:

participants showed significant improvement after SRS in domains II (psychological) and IV (social relationships) of the WHOQOL-100. In contrast, domains I (physical health) and III (level of independence) were significantly worse after SRS. Individuals who underwent additional surgery had a decrease in quality of life reflected in domains II and IV. During statistical analysis, all results were controlled for variations in demographic characteristics, without significant results

Surgery helped in domains 2 and 4. It hurt domains 1 and 3. Additional surgeries hurt the domains that were initially improved (2 and 4). Sounds like great improvements.

Regarding drop out rates, as we know from a recent detransitioner survey, most detransitioners don't notify their clinic and they detrans due to realizing their dysphoria was due to something else. They would be the sort that dropped out and are not included in the results.

 

[BrotherFease]

Let's not. The dog wants to go walkies, and that sounds like lots more fun just the now.

Why did you bother responding to my posts then? You started out by disagreeing with the scientific community on the issue. But never gave a reason why. What do you disagree with them?

 

[Goshin]

Why did you bother responding to my posts then? You started out by disagreeing with the scientific community on the issue. But never gave a reason why. What do you disagree with them?

I got tired of talking about it. You seem committed to misconstruing, ignoring or dismissing what I say, so there's little point.

 

[BrotherFease]

I got tired of talking about it. You seem committed to misconstruing, ignoring or dismissing what I say, so there's little point.

I am simply engaging in conversation. You started off by "not believing the scientists" without any explanation why. Then you jumped to the concept that the rise in transgenderism has nothing to do with societal acceptance and everything to do with "being cool". I don't see why you bothered to respond to my posts, when you couldn't fundamentally explain yourself. If I missed your original point, I want to give you the opportunity to explain to me why you disagree with the ADA and APA guidelines.

 

[Deuce]

Right wingers spend day after day persecuting transgender people and are shocked to find out their suicide rates are higher.

 

[Omgitsme]

Found this article about the six main studies used to support current trans-related policy. I'm not surprised to hear there are issues with the methodology and conclusions...

"In fact, the best studies on this topic actually prove the exact opposite of what gender ideologues claim. An extensive study from Sweden, for example, followed hundreds of gender-confused persons over the course of 30 years and found that those who underwent a medical transition were 20 times more likely to commit suicide than those who didn’t."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/we...sedgntp&cvid=72a3bb0d21a1498194cfb787fb2d21c8

which links to a more detailed article...

https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/science-vs-cited-seven-studies-to?s=r

There is a reason they dont link to the actual study anywhere in those articles. Here is the study.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.To ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The study itself is fine but its usually misinterpreted and the Author has on several occasions tried to correct the record.

Open Research Collaboration and Publishing - Authorea

Authorea is the leading platform to write, cite, collaborate, host data, and publish.

thewinnower.com

So the long and short of it is this study isnt set up in a way to compare suicide outcomes before and after transitioning. It compares trans people who have transitioned to cis people and found that (direct quote from the conclusion) "Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered." In other words even though hrt and surgery do exactly what they are supposed to do which is alleviate gender dysphoria that isnt enough to bring suicide rates down to cisgender levels and therefore we should in addition to hrt and surgeries there should be therapy as well. If you wanted to make the claim that " gender-confused persons over the course of 30 years and found that those who underwent a medical transition were 20 times more likely to commit suicide than those who didn’t" you would have to find a study that compares trans peoples suicide rates pre transition to trans peoples suicide rates post transition which this study doesnt do. The link you posted probably knows this which is why they never linked to the actual study and instead quote mined only a few misleading quotes.

For this study found in the Jesse Signal link in your link:

Body Dissatisfaction and Mental Health Outcomes of Youth on Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy - PubMed

Results provide further evidence of the critical role of gender-affirming hormone therapy in reducing body dissatisfaction. Modest initial improvements in mental health were also evident.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It says 16% and 4% for lifetime suicide attempts. Which is much lower then the 40% lifetime suicide attempted rate usually cited. So if anything it seems puberty blockers do what they are supposed to do. A trans person going though puberty usually has their body dissatisfaction go up as their body is masculinizing or feminizing so the fact that it is remaining constant while on puberty blockers is a good thing and means its working. Remember puberty blockers are meant to keep things from getting worse not to improve anyones mental well being. It would be like saying someone taking medicine for a degenerative disease didnt get any better then before. That might be true but without the medicine they would have been worse. What we really need here is a study comparing trans people who didnt go on puberty blockers to trans people who did go on puberty blockers and then we can tell who had the better outcomes.

Honestly I know there are other studies but I dont want to spend all night doing this when Im tired from work and school but you get the idea.

 

[RAMOSS]

NBC says 5% of young people self-identify as trans or nonbinary.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ansgender-nonbinary-us-survey-finds-rcna32315

A survey in Pittsburg High Schools said 1 in 10 identify as other-than-birth-sex...

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out...ntify-gender-diverse-pittsburgh-study-rcna993

I've seen other surveys that showed higher numbers among the young.

It seems extremely unlikely that this is a result of actual, clinical gender dysphoria, but is rather a social phenomenon resulting from it suddenly being "cool" to be trans/nb/etc.

I feel concern that some of these young people self-identifying this way may medically transition and come to regret it. Meanwhile there are the issues of born-men competing in women's sports, etc.

the 5% is about what it historically has been for centuries. If there are 'numbers' that are growing, it just means that there are less people that are repressed and denying their feelings to themselves

 

[bomberfox]

Yes, of course. But transgender activists will tell you they must take puberty blockers as pre-teens, or else they will grow up looking like the "wrong" gender. And the longterm effects of those drugs are not known. Obviously, it is unnatural and most likely very harmful to interfere with a child's natural sexual development.

Weve been giving puberty blockers to pre teens even before they were used in trans kids. Have you slopped your horse paste yet?

 

[bomberfox]

Found this article about the six main studies used to support current trans-related policy. I'm not surprised to hear there are issues with the methodology and conclusions...

"In fact, the best studies on this topic actually prove the exact opposite of what gender ideologues claim. An extensive study from Sweden, for example, followed hundreds of gender-confused persons over the course of 30 years and found that those who underwent a medical transition were 20 times more likely to commit suicide than those who didn’t."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/we...sedgntp&cvid=72a3bb0d21a1498194cfb787fb2d21c8

which links to a more detailed article...

https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/science-vs-cited-seven-studies-to?s=r

The author of that study has repeatedly tried to correct you guys. Why do you never listen?

 

[bomberfox]

There is bias everywhere. Pro no less than anti. Judge on the merits, instead of dismissing something because it's "from conservatives".

Heritage purposely tries to mislead you.

 

[bomberfox]

And yet, you would expect me to accept as valid, studies done by very pro-trans, pro-gay marriage researchers as if they were neutral and disinterested, which they are not. You don't like his views so you characterize them as bigoted and then feel free to ignore his data.

Or you can just accept you are wrong based on the author or the much vaunted swedish study lolheritage just nabbed up.