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Amnesty makes me ANGRY!

Johnny

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Amnesty personally pisses me off. One time my wife and I went to the embassy to look into how to bring her to the states in case we ever want to move back. My kids are dual citizens.

Anyway, I watch these politicians and people support amnesty and WTF?

I have to go through all of this red tape and we have to cough up thousands of dollars for the immigration process yet her husband and kids are American.

Yet some ****ers can illegally sneak in the country and get to stay?

This is unadulterated bull****.

I don't see us moving anytime soon if ever but **** this pisses me off.

You wouldn't believe what they expect. So many thousands in tge bank, a job waiting for you etc etc.

The fact that an illegals get an easier process than somebody with ties to the states is wrong on so many levels.

I'm a supporter of immigration the legal way if the country can support the amount of people but this illegal immigration needs to stop.
 

Hoplite

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It may not be fair, but it's better and easier than the alternatives.

Realistically, business will never support a crackdown on hiring undocumented workers. It's political suicide so no one is going to touch it.

It's also political suicide to advocate for a crackdown in undocumented workers themselves. Raids are expensive, unpopular, and in-effective.

Sealing the border is an unrealistic idea and it wont actually help as much as people think it will, about half of undocumented workers came here on student or work visas and overstayed the expiration. On top of that, you dont actually do anything about undocumented workers already IN the states.


Amnesty is probably the best choice, realistically speaking. It means we dont have to spend tons of money on law enforcement efforts to track people down and throw them out, we dont have to try to tiptoe around businesses and endure the economic impact of a price jump, and we gain thousands of new TAX PAYING citizens.
 

Johnny

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But amnesty encourages more illegal immigration. It sends a message that it's okay to sneak in.

The government doesn't have to track them down per se but once they are caught they should be sent back where they came from.
 

spud_meister

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do you support amnesty for all criminals then?

why not make it policy that if you break the law, and can avoid the cops for a week, then you can get off scot free, imagine how much money that'll save.
 

the makeout hobo

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But amnesty encourages more illegal immigration. It sends a message that it's okay to sneak in.

The government doesn't have to track them down per se but once they are caught they should be sent back where they came from.
How do you propose we catch them?
 

Hoplite

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But amnesty encourages more illegal immigration. It sends a message that it's okay to sneak in.
Part of the conditions of amnesty is that you present proof you have been living and/or working in the US at least six months before X date. If you cant, then you aren't eligible.

The government doesn't have to track them down per se but once they are caught they should be sent back where they came from.
Except we know that doesnt actually do anything.

do you support amnesty for all criminals then?

why not make it policy that if you break the law, and can avoid the cops for a week, then you can get off scot free, imagine how much money that'll save.
Because we arent talking about people who robbed a liquor store or sold drugs to tweens.
 

spud_meister

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How do you propose we catch them?
impress upon employers the necessity of reporting when illegals inquire for work, give them a reward for every illegal that they catch, something like that, remove the incentive of employment, and they should realise crossing the border won't get them work.
 

Hoplite

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impress upon employers the necessity of reporting when illegals inquire for work, give them a reward for every illegal that they catch, something like that, remove the incentive of employment, and they should realise crossing the border won't get them work.
Can you offer a reward greater than the money they save with a disposable workforce? I dont think so. And appealing to the honest nature of private enterprise, to me, seems like trying to drown a fish.

Capitalism is, by its very nature, dishonest.
 

Johnny

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How do you propose we catch them?

I worded that wrong. I'm enjoying done beers at the moment.

Basically do what Arizona is trying to do. Which is if some has an encounter with the police they can check immigration status.

Also, the government should be checking work places and editing there aren't illegals employed there. If there are they should be arrested immediately and sent back. The employer should be investigated and if it's found they knew the employee/s were illegal throw them in jail.
 

spud_meister

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Because we arent talking about people who robbed a liquor store or sold drugs to tweens.
i don;t see the difference, the law is still the law, and these people are knowingly violating it.
 

Hoplite

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I worded that wrong. I'm enjoying done beers at the moment.

Basically do what Arizona is trying to do. Which is if some has an encounter with the police they can check immigration status.

Also, the government should be checking work places and editing there aren't illegals employed there. If there are they should be arrested immediately and sent back. The employer should be investigated and if it's found they knew the employee/s were illegal throw them in jail.
Very cozy plan, who do you have plan to pay for it?

I live in LA, trust me, you're going to need A LOT more boots than ANY government agency has on staff if you want to do anything

i don;t see the difference, the law is still the law, and these people are knowingly violating it.
Ok, so let's start executing shoplifters. The law is the law and these people are knowingly violating it.
 

spud_meister

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Can you offer a reward greater than the money they save with a disposable workforce? I dont think so. And appealing to the honest nature of private enterprise, to me, seems like trying to drown a fish.

Capitalism is, by its very nature, dishonest.
so because it won't be 100% effective, you advocate just opening the flood gates, the current unemployment rate in America is 9%, can you imagine how much that would go up if people could just cross the border, gain citizenship and apply for welfare, while the poeople who don't apply for citizenship will still be hired by employers.
 

Hoplite

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so because it won't be 100% effective, you advocate just opening the flood gates, the current unemployment rate in America is 9%, can you imagine how much that would go up if people could just cross the border, gain citizenship and apply for welfare, while the poeople who don't apply for citizenship will still be hired by employers.
Since most of them are already here and working, amnesty wont change very much.

Im not criticizing the idea because it's not 100% effective, I'm criticizing it because it's not even 2% effective. Think about it from a business owner's standpoint.

You run a business and you can hire 10 undocumented workers and pay them all five bucks an hour (illegal to do, but they wont complain) or you can hire 10 hueros and pay them eight bucks an hour. There's low/no risk of you being caught and even if you do get caught, you just have to fire them and maybe pay a small fine which is peanuts stacked up against how much they've saved you. If you dont want to use them anymore, just fire them and hire new ones. You can treat them like crap and overwork them because they know they cant complain and are lucky to have a job in the first place.

On the other hand, you gotta pay the hueros more, you might have to pay them benefits, workers comp if they get hurt, insurance, taxes, plus they call in sick or dont show up.

You'd be out of your mind not to hire the undocumented workers, from a business standpoint. It's low risk high reward.
 

Johnny

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That's why employers that knowingly hire illegals need to be punished and not get a slap on the wrist.
 

Hoplite

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That's why employers that knowingly hire illegals need to be punished and not get a slap on the wrist.
And, again, refer to my original list of problems with this scenario:

1. No politician in his right mind is going to back this
2. You are going to have to pay MORE law enforcement to see that this law is being enforced
3. You're going to have to endure a price shock once all the cheap labor goes bye-bye
 

Johnny

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Very cozy plan, who do you have plan to pay for it?

I live in LA, trust me, you're going to need A LOT more boots than ANY government agency has on staff if you want to do anything.
If we stopped these senseless wars and stopped policing the world we could afford it and save money. We'd have our troops in our country. They could be trained to do the job.
 

Hoplite

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If we stopped these senseless wars and stopped policing the world we could afford it and save money. We'd have our troops in our country. They could be trained to do the job.
Except they cant do that job.

Under US law, the Armed Forces cannot be called in to do the job of law enforcement in domestic situations. There are only a few exceptions to this and "rounding up Mexicans" isnt on that list
 

liblady

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Amnesty personally pisses me off. One time my wife and I went to the embassy to look into how to bring her to the states in case we ever want to move back. My kids are dual citizens.

Anyway, I watch these politicians and people support amnesty and WTF?

I have to go through all of this red tape and we have to cough up thousands of dollars for the immigration process yet her husband and kids are American.

Yet some ****ers can illegally sneak in the country and get to stay?

This is unadulterated bull****.

I don't see us moving anytime soon if ever but **** this pisses me off.

You wouldn't believe what they expect. So many thousands in tge bank, a job waiting for you etc etc.

The fact that an illegals get an easier process than somebody with ties to the states is wrong on so many levels.

I'm a supporter of immigration the legal way if the country can support the amount of people but this illegal immigration needs to stop.
for practical reasons, i think amnesty is a good idea, combined with other measures to slow illegal entry. as far as your situation, i am really surpised that with an american husband it's that difficult.
 

Rogue

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The liberals pick and choose their talking points to make amnesty seems like the only logical solution. The fact is that the so called "cheap" illegal labor is only cheap to a few select scumbag industies who employ illegals, while at the same time the "taxpayers" pick up the tag for the baggage that the illegals bring with them. Welfare abuse, anchor baby abuse, ruining the American school system, incarceration of the criminal illegals, depressed wages for CITIZENS, etc., etc., etc. Any pro illegal appologizer on this forum should be pinned down and made to explain how they would benefit from an amnesty.
 

MaggieD

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Can you offer a reward greater than the money they save with a disposable workforce? I dont think so. And appealing to the honest nature of private enterprise, to me, seems like trying to drown a fish.

Capitalism is, by its very nature, dishonest.
Giving amnesty to these undocumented workers means they'll no longer be a disposable workforce. To say our immigration laws are unenforceable for our southern friends is a copout. They're enforceable. Easily. But for some unknown reason, our government doesn't want to enforce them. Wish I knew what that reason was.
 

Tucker Case

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Amnesty personally pisses me off. One time my wife and I went to the embassy to look into how to bring her to the states in case we ever want to move back. My kids are dual citizens.

Anyway, I watch these politicians and people support amnesty and WTF?

I have to go through all of this red tape and we have to cough up thousands of dollars for the immigration process yet her husband and kids are American.

Yet some ****ers can illegally sneak in the country and get to stay?

This is unadulterated bull****.

I don't see us moving anytime soon if ever but **** this pisses me off.

You wouldn't believe what they expect. So many thousands in tge bank, a job waiting for you etc etc.

The fact that an illegals get an easier process than somebody with ties to the states is wrong on so many levels.

I'm a supporter of immigration the legal way if the country can support the amount of people but this illegal immigration needs to stop.
I oppose federal amnesty, albeit for slightly differ reasons, but the effect is the same. I agree that the path to legal immigration should not be more difficult to the path to illegal immigration.

However, I also oppose all of the red tape and hoops your wife has had to jump through to gain and/or retain her legal immigrant status. I think you are very right to be pissed.

I think this ends up increasing illegal immigration and serves a deterrent for legal immigration.

Essentially, if it's easier to come here illegally, then why bother doing it legally?

Amnesty would only make that more of a problem, not less of one. The illegal immigration wouldn't suddenly stop because of amnesty. It wouldn't be more difficult to come here illegally due to amnesty. Amnesty is no solution at all.
 

jamesrage

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It may not be fair, but it's better and easier than the alternatives.
What is hard about having the police check the legal status of anyone they pull over, have the DMV or some other tax payer funded service check the legal status of anyone applying for a license, car tag, food handlers permit, welfare and etc, and what the hell is so hard having more guards on the border, better yet put the military on the border seeing how border defense is a military job.
Realistically, business will never support a crackdown on hiring undocumented workers illegals.
Only the dishonest ones will oppose a crackdown of hiring illegals.

It's political suicide so no one is going to touch it.
Its political suicide to grant amnesty to illegals.

It's also political suicide to advocate for a crackdown in undocumented workers illegals themselves.
Most Americans are against illegal immigration,so no its not political suicide to support a crack down of illegals.

Raids are expensive, unpopular, and in-effective.
Considering the money handed out other countries, money handed out for idiotic grants and studies, Cost is not a issue. Its only token raids that are unpopular and and in-effective.


Sealing the border is an unrealistic idea and it wont actually help as much as people think it will, about half of undocumented workers illegals came here on student or work visas and overstayed the expiration.
So sealing the border will stop most of the illegals who cross into this country illegally. You do not leave the faucet running at full blast just because there there might be a a little leak. A simple solution for stopping those who deliberately overstay their visa is to cut off the countries we have the most illegal immigration problems with until the problem is fixed.

On top of that, you dont actually do anything about undocumented workers illegals already IN the states.
It keeps more people from coming into the country illegally. As for doing something about the illegals in the US we can do a combination of what Oklahoma and Arizona has done. Which is deny tax payer funded services to illegals such welfare, section 8 housing food stamps, drivers licenses, permits, id, food handlers permits any anything else issued by the state, require businesses on the local level to use the e-verify system, make it a felony on the state level to employ,house,transport or aid illegals in any way.

Sealing the borders and massive round ups are not the only solutions to illegal immigration,which has been said numerous times in many threads discussing illegal immigration. I guess if pro-illegals have try to perpetuate this myth that mass round ups and sealing the border are the only solutions in order to push for amnesty and swinging the door wide open on the border.

Amnesty is probably the best choice, realistically speaking.
No its not. Amnesty will just triple or quadruple the amount of illegals we have in this country in the next twenty years just like the Reagan amnesty did.

It means we don't have to spend tons of money on law enforcement efforts to track people down and throw them out,
Amnesty means the exact opposite because more illegals will flood into the country waiting for their turn at amnesty. When you grant amnesty you encourage more illegal immigration because illegals will have no reason to believe that immigration laws will be enforced when you have token raids on dishonest businesses, the president having his AG sue Arizona for merely enforcing the law and token raids and the border inadequately secured. The only thing that will happen regarding the dishonest scum who hire illegals is that they will replace those who got legal status with new illegals. Some of the reasons dishonest scum hire illegals is because illegals can not demand raises, benefits and other stuff. So it will not stop dishonest scum from hiring illegals.

we dont have to try to tiptoe around businesses and endure the economic impact of a price jump, and we gain thousands of new TAX PAYING citizens.
Price jumps are nothing more than scare tactics of pro-illegals. Labor legal or illegal has little to do with the price of goods.
Local News | Low-paid illegal work force has little impact on prices | Seattle Times Newspaper
Code:
More than 7 million illegal immigrants work in the United States. They build houses, pick crops, slaughter cattle, stitch clothes, mow lawns, clean hotel rooms, cook restaurant meals and wash the dishes that come back.

You might assume that the plentiful supply of low-wage illegal workers would translate into significantly lower prices for the goods and services they produce. In fact, their impact on consumer prices — call it the "illegal-worker discount" — is surprisingly small.

The bag of Washington state apples you bought last weekend? Probably a few cents cheaper than it otherwise would have been, economists estimate. That steak dinner at a downtown restaurant? Maybe a buck off. Your new house in Subdivision Estates? Hard to say, but perhaps a few thousand dollars less expensive.

The underlying reason, economists say, is that for most goods the labor — whether legal or illegal, native- or foreign-born — represents only a sliver of the retail price.

Consider those apples — Washington's signature contribution to the American food basket.

At a local QFC, Red Delicious apples go for about 99 cents a pound. Of that, only about 7 cents represents the cost of labor, said Tom Schotzko, a recently retired extension economist at Washington State University. The rest represents the grower's other expenses, warehousing and shipping fees, and the retailer's markup.

And that's for one of the most labor-intensive crops in the state: It takes 150 to 190 hours of labor to grow and harvest an acre of apples, Schotzko said, compared to four hours for an acre of potatoes and 1 ½ hours for an acre of wheat.

The labor-intensive nature of many crops is a key reason agriculture continues to rely on illegal workers. A report by Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center who has long studied immigration trends, estimates that 247,000 illegal immigrants were employed as "miscellaneous agricultural workers" last year — only 3.4 percent of the nation's 7.2 million illegal workers, according to Pew statistics, but 29 percent of all workers in that job category.

Eliminating illegal farmworkers, by shrinking the pool of available labor, likely would raise wages for those who remain. Philip Martin, a professor of agricultural economics at the University of California, Davis, noted that two years after the old bracero program ended in 1964, the United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent increase for grape harvesters.

A decade ago, two Iowa State University agricultural economists estimated that removing all illegal farmworkers would raise wages for seasonal farmworkers by 30 percent in the first couple of years, and 15 percent in the medium term.

But supermarket prices of summer-fall fruits and vegetables, they concluded, would rise by just 6 percent in the short run — dropping to 3 percent over time, as imports took up some of the slack and some farmers mechanized their operations or shifted out of labor-intensive crops. (Winter-spring produce would be even less affected, they found, because so much already is imported.)

If illegal workers disappeared from the apple harvest and wages for the remaining legal workers rose by 40 percent in response — and that entire wage increase were passed on to the consumer — that still would add less than 3 cents to the retail price of a pound of apples.
 

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I oppose federal amnesty, albeit for slightly differ reasons, but the effect is the same. I agree that the path to legal immigration should not be more difficult to the path to illegal immigration.

However, I also oppose all of the red tape and hoops your wife has had to jump through to gain and/or retain her legal immigrant status. I think you are very right to be pissed.

I think this ends up increasing illegal immigration and serves a deterrent for legal immigration.

Essentially, if it's easier to come here illegally, then why bother doing it legally?

Amnesty would only make that more of a problem, not less of one. It wouldn't be more difficult to come here illegally due to amnesty. Amnesty is no solution at all.
It's only easier because of our borders. Johnny would have a verrry hard time bringing his wife her illegally. Unless, of course, he brought her through Mexico. Bolded part -- could not agree with you more.
 

Tucker Case

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It's only easier because of our borders. Johnny would have a verrry hard time bringing his wife her illegally. Unless, of course, he brought her through Mexico. Bolded part -- could not agree with you more.
It's far easier to come illegally by airplane and overstay the 90-day vacation visa than it is to cross the border. How do you think most of the Polish/Irish/Italian/Etc illegal immigrants in Chicago got here?
 
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jamesrage

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It's far easier to come illegally by airplane and overstay the 90-day vacation visa than it is to cross the border. How do you think most of the Polish/Irish/Italian/Etc illegal immigrants in Chicago got here?
If thats true then why aren't all illegals those who deliberately overstayed their visa?
 
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