Again, why Medicare for All would never work

[jaeger19]

Projectgion.

I know what it means and you are projecting your ass off.

Alot of frustration on your part.

My bet is most of them died from the first two very deadly variants, many of them before the vaccines became available. And though you are too much of a partisan librul to admit it, the first public anti-vaxxers were Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Just more projection. The "Your masters" angle is a poster boy example of projection and your own frustration. And again, no, I am not going to read a 28 page pdf file to prove to you that I understand Medicare. While I do not have an insurance broker level of Medicare, I do have a basic understanding of it, as I consulted a professional insurance broker who specializes in Medicare before deciding whether or not to accept Part B. I know how it works. I also know that congress critters have been dipping into the trust funds since the early 1980s, which is the biggest single reason SS and Medicare are on financially shaky ground.

1. Again you need to look up projection.
You are definitely using it incorrectly.
2. When people were dying because of right wing lies? Yeah it’s frustrating.
It was really frustrating watching the spouses and other family suffer because they were afraid to get vaccinated and take precautions for fear of being ostracized by family.

3. Actually no. A lot died after the vaccines were available. However, yeah it was frustrating when workers at the local nursing home though that “ covid was a hoax, and covid was “ just a flu” and so they held a giant barbecue with people from out of state. Even though the recommendations from the state health department were no gatherings outside your immediate family etc.. Then went to work and caused a giant outbreak in the nursing home causing the deaths of about 20 residents.

And no, joe Biden and Kamala weren’t even antivaxxers . They never once said the covid vaccine approved by the fda for emergency use was unsafe. Cripes.

4. Yeah no. Face it man, I use objective scientific research in my decisions.
You clearly don’t understand how Medicare works and you blatantly refused to read objective info on it.
There is no “ dipping into the trust fund”

That trust fund is made up of treasury bonds that are already loans. There is no vault full of Medicare money that they “ dip into”
You are flat out wrong.

 

[MAGAnificent]

1. Again you need to look up projection.
You are definitely using it incorrectly.

When you use juvenile language like "Your masters", you are projecting.

2. When people were dying because of right wing lies? Yeah it’s frustrating.
It was really frustrating watching the spouses and other family suffer because they were afraid to get vaccinated and take precautions for fear of being ostracized by family.

It was really frustrating that the CDC could not get it's act together on testing early on and then when it did, they were hesitant to share the testing with primary care doctors, urgent care centers, etc. That would have went a long way towards getting a handle on the Covid before it got out of hand.

3. Actually no. A lot died after the vaccines were available. However, yeah it was frustrating when workers at the local nursing home though that “ covid was a hoax, and covid was “ just a flu” and so they held a giant barbecue with people from out of state. Even though the recommendations from the state health department were no gatherings outside your immediate family etc.. Then went to work and caused a giant outbreak in the nursing home causing the deaths of about 20 residents.

If you want to talk about nursing homes, if you were a bit more objective, you would be condemning Former New York Governor Cuomo in regards to writing an executive order pushing Covid infected seniors back into ill prepared nursing homes. You would also be condemning your democratic party going fast and loose with the migrant caravans, welcoming them in and dispersing them largely in red states, without knowing their Covid status.

And no, joe Biden and Kamala weren’t even antivaxxers . They never once said the covid vaccine approved by the fda for emergency use was unsafe. Cripes.

Biden and Harris both yelled: "I will not get the vaccines if Trump tells me I should.". I know they were playing politics , however that is about as anti-vaxx as you can get, publicly.

4. Yeah no. Face it man, I use objective scientific research in my decisions.

No, actually you cherry pick.

You clearly don’t understand how Medicare works and you blatantly refused to read objective info on it.
There is no “ dipping into the trust fund”

There absolutely is dipping into the trust funds. And they have been doing it since 1983, and replacing them with Treasury bonds. Prior to 1983, the Trust funds were off limits/

That trust fund is made up of treasury bonds that are already loans. There is no vault full of Medicare money that they “ dip into”
You are flat out wrong.

Once again, the Trust funds are primary the funds deducted from your paychecks for the sake of being able to draw from them at retirement.....at least until 1983. And which prt of the funds currently are projected to run out in 20133 did you not understand? Congress replacing the money they embezzle from the Trust funds with treasury bonds, that are already borrowed money is not ideal.

 

[roguenuke]

80% of patients with insurance........not 80% of Americans. If you have no or minimal insurance and need health care the wait time is eternity.

Yep. That's the first healthcare filter Americans face, if you have insurance. If you don't have insurance or have crappy insurance, you didn't go. It's easy to say that parents can simply work out getting off work, but not so easy to do in reality.

 

[jaeger19]

When you use juvenile language like "Your masters", you are projecting.

It was really frustrating that the CDC could not get it's act together on testing early on and then when it did, they were hesitant to share the testing with primary care doctors, urgent care centers, etc. That would have went a long way towards getting a handle on the Covid before it got out of hand.

If you want to talk about nursing homes, if you were a bit more objective, you would be condemning Former New York Governor Cuomo in regards to writing an executive order pushing Covid infected seniors back into ill prepared nursing homes. You would also be condemning your democratic party going fast and loose with the migrant caravans, welcoming them in and dispersing them largely in red states, without knowing their Covid status.

Biden and Harris both yelled: "I will not get the vaccines if Trump tells me I should.". I know they were playing politics , however that is about as anti-vaxx as you can get, publicly.

No, actually you cherry pick.

There absolutely is dipping into the trust funds. And they have been doing it since 1983, and replacing them with Treasury bonds. Prior to 1983, the Trust funds were off limits/

Once again, the Trust funds are primary the funds deducted from your paychecks for the sake of being able to draw from them at retirement.....at least until 1983. And which prt of the funds currently are projected to run out in 20133 did you not understand? Congress replacing the money they embezzle from the Trust funds with treasury bonds, that are already borrowed money is not ideal.

1. Yeah no. That is not an indication of projecting.
I encourage you to look it up.

2. Bull. We aren’t talking about “ testing”. We are talking about listening to the medical and scientific community that told people that COVID was a serious disease and would kill people . A medical community that wanted people to take it seriously, avoid large groups were it could spread . Isolate yourself if you have symptoms etc.
and a right wing that told people it was a hoax , covid was like the flu, that it would just “ go away.
And you still follow the right wing .

3. No. It’s no where near anti vaccine. It’s ANTI TRUMP as someone who you should take medical advice from. How many times did trump get Covid wrong publicly? It’s hard to count his lies about Covid and treatments.

4. Yeah . That’s complete bs. I am from New York. I owned New York nursing homes in the past. While cuomo is a giant ass hat. Only eclipsed by trump of course.
While cuomo is an asshat ,,, his order in no way caused physicians to send infectious patients back to nursing homes. Cuomo never had the power to decide when a patient was appropriate for discharge . That’s the physician. What happened is that when some nursing home patients were medically stable and non infectious m, nursing homes weren’t willing to accept them back ( mostly for economic reasons) . Cuomo executive order was not even necessary because the law already required nursing homes to take back medically stable patients or ADMIT that they can not handle them.

5. No cherry picking. You are welcome to provide the studies that disprove my citations. Lmao.

6. Again . No dipping. You can’t “ dip” into treasury bonds . When a bond is sold, the money from the bier goes immediately to the general fund. There was no “ replacing with treasury bonds . Surplus was put into treasury bonds since its inception
7. No . There is no Medicare or social security account with your name on it “ filled with treasury bonds.
Medicare and social security are INSURANCE funds . What you pay into it goes to pay existing bills . Any other surplus gets invested in a treasury note .

There is no “ embezzling money”. Those money that paid for those treasury loans back in 2008 was spent in 2008 .

 

[MAGAnificent]

1. Yeah no. That is not an indication of projecting.

Your posts are projections on steroids. Own it!

2. Bull. We aren’t talking about “ testing”. We are talking about listening to the medical and scientific community that told people that COVID was a serious disease and would kill people .

Personally, I don't know anyone who did not take Covid serious. You spend too much time listeniong to the legcy mdia.

A medical community that wanted people to take it seriously, avoid large groups were it could spread .

See above.

Isolate yourself if you have symptoms etc.

I have always preached that if you have a virus, and feel lousy, see a doctor and recover at home rather then infecting others. My employer enforced that in regards to Covid.

and a right wing that told people it was a hoax , covid was like the flu, that it would just “ go away.

Again, you are taking the legacy media too literally. I don't know anyone who said Covid would just go way. We were told it would go away as a pandemic. And it has.

And you still follow the right wing .

You certainly have a hair up your ass about conservatives, which again makes it quite amusing that you deny that you are a librul.

3. No. It’s no where near anti vaccine. It’s ANTI TRUMP as someone who you should take medical advice from.

At best Biden and Harris were politicizing the vaccines. They said they would not take the vaccines if Trump said they should. When it comes to a deadly pandemic, they should have just recommended that everyone get the vaccines when they became available. They sent the wrong message. I would like to think you are adult enough to work that out. Biden and Harris were not pro-vaccine until they were safely elected.

4. Yeah . That’s complete bs. I am from New York. I owned New York nursing homes in the past. While cuomo is a giant ass hat.

Then you should have been mortified when the seniors were pushed back into ill-prepared nursing homes/

Only eclipsed by trump of course.

TDS.

What happened is that when some nursing home patients were medically stable and non infectious

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! Obviously they were infectious.

6. Again . No dipping. You can’t “ dip” into treasury bonds .

For the last time, they absolutely have been dipping into the Trust funds for Social Security and Medicare. That's what it's called when they take funds from those accounts for general funding projects. Replacing the funds with treasury bonds, basically IOUs does not change that. Prior to 1983, they kept their hands out. Now they are treating SS and Medicare like a bank.

 

[jaeger19]

Your posts are projections on steroids. Own it!

Personally, I don't know anyone who did not take Covid serious. You spend too much time listeniong to the legcy mdia.

See above.

I have always preached that if you have a virus, and feel lousy, see a doctor and recover at home rather then infecting others. My employer enforced that in regards to Covid.

Again, you are taking the legacy media too literally. I don't know anyone who said Covid would just go way. We were told it would go away as a pandemic. And it has.

You certainly have a hair up your ass about conservatives, which again makes it quite amusing that you deny that you are a librul.

At best Biden and Harris were politicizing the vaccines. They said they would not take the vaccines if Trump said they should. When it comes to a deadly pandemic, they should have just recommended that everyone get the vaccines when they became available. They sent the wrong message. I would like to think you are adult enough to work that out. Biden and Harris were not pro-vaccine until they were safely elected.

Then you should have been mortified when the seniors were pushed back into ill-prepared nursing homes/

TDS.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! Obviously they were infectious.

For the last time, they absolutely have been dipping into the Trust funds for Social Security and Medicare. That's what it's called when they take funds from those accounts for general funding projects. Replacing the funds with treasury bonds, basically IOUs does not change that. Prior to 1983, they kept their hands out. Now they are treating SS and Medicare like a bank.

1. Yeah no.

What Is Projection?​

Unconscious discomfort can lead people to attribute unacceptable feelings or impulses to someone else to avoid confronting them. Projection allows the difficult trait to be addressed without the individual fully recognizing it in themselves.

Projection

Projection is the process of displacing one’s feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. The term is most commonly used to describe defensive projection—attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another. For example, if someone continuously bullies and ridicules a peer about his...

www.psychologytoday.com

2. Well, I live in a red state . And most of my patients stated that it was a hoax. In fact some of my healthcare employees called it a hoax.

Where could they get such an idea.. oh yeah Hannity on fox told them it was a hoax.

4. Yeah no media. This was directly from people in my community . Protests because Covid was a hoax , protests against closures and stay at home orders.
You don’t know anyone who said Covid would just go away? Lol

“President Donald Trump repeated on Wednesday something he said in the early days of the coronavirus pandemic -- that the virus will "just disappear." Trump made the comments to Fox Business the same day after the U.S. reported 50,000 cases in one day for the first time”

Trump repeats coronavirus will 'disappear' as US hits single-day case record

The U.S. had 16 total cases when the president first made the claim in February that the virus will disappear.

www.fox61.com

5. No. I have no problem with real conservatives as I am one. Right wingers aren’t conservatives.
6. No mortification. They were NOT pushed back to ill prepared nursing homes.

7 . Yeah no. Everytine there is a surplus, treasury bonds are bought and that means the money they are bought with immediately becomes general funds.
There is no “ replacing funds with treasury bonds”

Prior to 1983 they didn’t keep their hands out.

“Since the assets in the Social Security trust funds consists of Treasury securities, this means that the taxes collected under the Social Security payroll tax are in effect being lent to the federal government to be expended for whatever present purposes the government requires. In this indirect sense, one could say that the Social Security trust funds are being spent for non-Social Security purposes. However, all this really means is that the trust funds hold their assets in the form of Treasury securities.

These financing procedures have not changed in any fundamental way since payroll taxes were first collected in 1937. What has changed, however, is the accounting procedures used in federal budgeting when it comes to the Social Security Trust Funds.”

Social Security History

All that happened in 1983 was that they took the trust funds “ off budget”
( sort of)

 

[MAGAnificent]

1. Yeah no.

What Is Projection?​

Unconscious discomfort can lead people to attribute unacceptable feelings or impulses to someone else to avoid confronting them. Projection allows the difficult trait to be addressed without the individual fully recognizing it in themselves.

Projection

Projection is the process of displacing one’s feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. The term is most commonly used to describe defensive projection—attributing one’s own unacceptable urges to another. For example, if someone continuously bullies and ridicules a peer about his...

www.psychologytoday.com

2. Well, I live in a red state . And most of my patients stated that it was a hoax. In fact some of my healthcare employees called it a hoax.

Where could they get such an idea.. oh yeah Hannity on fox told them it was a hoax.

4. Yeah no media. This was directly from people in my community . Protests because Covid was a hoax , protests against closures and stay at home orders.
You don’t know anyone who said Covid would just go away? Lol

“President Donald Trump repeated on Wednesday something he said in the early days of the coronavirus pandemic -- that the virus will "just disappear." Trump made the comments to Fox Business the same day after the U.S. reported 50,000 cases in one day for the first time”

Trump repeats coronavirus will 'disappear' as US hits single-day case record

The U.S. had 16 total cases when the president first made the claim in February that the virus will disappear.

www.fox61.com

5. No. I have no problem with real conservatives as I am one. Right wingers aren’t conservatives.
6. No mortification. They were NOT pushed back to ill prepared nursing homes.

7 . Yeah no. Everytine there is a surplus, treasury bonds are bought and that means the money they are bought with immediately becomes general funds.
There is no “ replacing funds with treasury bonds”

Prior to 1983 they didn’t keep their hands out.

“Since the assets in the Social Security trust funds consists of Treasury securities, this means that the taxes collected under the Social Security payroll tax are in effect being lent to the federal government to be expended for whatever present purposes the government requires. In this indirect sense, one could say that the Social Security trust funds are being spent for non-Social Security purposes. However, all this really means is that the trust funds hold their assets in the form of Treasury securities.

These financing procedures have not changed in any fundamental way since payroll taxes were first collected in 1937. What has changed, however, is the accounting procedures used in federal budgeting when it comes to the Social Security Trust Funds.”

Social Security History

All that happened in 1983 was that they took the trust funds “ off budget”
( sort of)

Yeah no. Get back to me when you get over your projection habit.

 

[jaeger19]

Yeah no. Get back to me when you get over your projection habit.

Sorry man. No projection . Just facts.
I know it’s hard for you to accept facts.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Sorry man. No projection . Just facts.
I know it’s hard for you to accept facts.

Almost nothing but projection. You take care.

 

[jaeger19]

Almost nothing but projection. You take care.

Yeah. You too. You might find it good to crack a book or two.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Yeah. You too. You might find it good to crack a book or two.

In all likelihood, I have read more books than you have.

 

[jaeger19]

In all likelihood, I have read more books than you have.

Right wing propoganda doesn’t count.

 

[tharock220]

It could work, but it would mean we all have to settle for the same health care, and those of us who would wind up with worse coverage oppose that.

 

[poweRob]

Medicare Advantage is a privatized fraud.

 

[poweRob]

In all likelihood, I have read more books than you have.

Yeah. I can believe it. There are a whole lot of Curious George books.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Yeah. I can believe it. There are a whole lot of Curious George books.

Ho hum......

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.

4) Medical debt is the #2 cause of bankruptcy in the U.S., right behind losing your job.

Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Maybe demand explodes. So we go through an initial period of high demand that tapers off. Or we taper M4A in, which would be pretty easy.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

The government would set the price, like they do for Medicare now.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

Countries don't go bankrupt.

By all serious calculations, M4A would provide better care overall for less money. The government already pays for the most expensive to insure. You can subtract the insane costs of the insurance bureaucracy - for the insured, who still pay for at least a portion of their insurance, for the doctors who have to hire staff just to deal with insurance companies, and for the government, who subsidizes insurance policies and pays for Medicare Advantage - with more money going to actual healthcare, and still come out ahead, probably far ahead.

Most people would have more money in their pockets, even with slightly higher taxes. Companies wouldn't need to shoulder their share of the insurance burden. Workers would no longer be tied to their jobs to keep their insurance. And the populace, including the workforce, would be healthier (a fair assumption, I think). All of this would be great for the economy - more demand, lower costs for businesses, and healthier people. And far fewer bankruptcies. I don't think many people appreciate the economic destruction that bankruptcies cause.

Simply cutting out a very expensive and counterproductive middleman would do wonders for healthcare, and for costs.

As for the transition, if we simply taper in M4A and fold current Medicaid recipients into a better, more comprehensive healthcare plan, I don't foresee any big problems with the healthcare industry ramping up to meet what I would hope is greater demand for healthcare in general. Certainly, any transitional problems are not a sufficient reason to keep plowing ahead with the current system, which we all agree stinks.

 

[aociswundumho]

Maybe demand explodes. So we go through an initial period of high demand that tapers off. Or we taper M4A in, which would be pretty easy.

That doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it.

The government would set the price, like they do for Medicare now.

Ah, price controls, and what a track record they have.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

That doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it.

You foresee a huge demand problem, I don't. Dozens of other countries make it work. Do you seriously think that we are incapable of building some hospitals and making (or importing) more doctors?

Ah, price controls, and what a track record they have.

Medicare has been working for quite some time already.

Insurance is the reason that our healthcare costs are higher than other countries. They add their own profit and overhead, plus administrative costs on the hospital side.

 

[uptower]

Here are some claims I believe to be true:

1) U.S. healthcare is insanely expensive.

2) Americans, as a group, are not healthy.

3) Most insurance plans are terrible - high deductibles, surprise bills, and claim denials are the norm.


Now imagine flipping a switch: healthcare is suddenly “free.” No co-pays, no deductibles - just walk in. First come, first served.

What happens next?

Everyone shows up.

People who’ve been putting off checkups, procedures, and diagnostics flood the system overnight. Not just the sick, but everyone. Because when something expensive becomes free, demand doesn’t just rise - it explodes.

Hospitals would be swamped. Doctors would be way overbooked.

The next step is waiting lists.

The NHS has 6 million patients on waiting lists.

In Canada, the average wait time from initial visit to treatment is over six months.

Our system would be 5x times larger than the NHS. Socialist institutions work worse the bigger they get.

Btw, can you guess what increased demand does to the price of a service like healthcare? It sends it up, up, up. That means the crazy taxes they imposed to pay for medicare for all aren't going to be nearly enough.

Medicare for All would bankrupt the country.

All the hurdles you listed are handled or endured by countries that have universal healthcare to some degree of success. They are kinks in the system, not obstacles to implementing the system altogether. All countries who have universal healthcare and suffer from problems such as waiting lists have deemed it better than not caring for people at all.

You can’t sit there and whine that Medicare would bankrupt the country when it hasn’t bankrupted any others. It’s just a matter of spending priorities and in the cases of places like Britain and Canada, properly taxing the rich and corporations to cover it, in some cases tort reform to keep costs down. Totally doable. The Political will is lacking.

 

[aociswundumho]

You foresee a huge demand problem, I don't.

Americans are very unhealthy.

Health insurance sucks.

Paying cash is extremely expensive.

Hence it is reasonable to presume a rather pent up demand.

Dozens of other countries make it work.

North Korea makes public food production work. As does Cuba.

Does this sound like an argument for public control over the means of producing food?

I should hope not.

Do you seriously think that we are incapable of building some hospitals and making (or importing) more doctors?

Sure, but it's all got to be paid for, and with all this demand means prices go up, not down.

Medicare has been working for quite some time already.

An astute observation, but if I recall correctly, medicare accounts for about 20% of all healthcare spending. Things would look drastically different if it covered 100%.

Insurance is the reason that our healthcare costs are higher than other countries. They add their own profit and overhead, plus administrative costs on the hospital side.

Insurance companies are not the problem. Their profits were essentially capped by obamacare.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Hence it is reasonable to presume a rather pent up demand.

If you phase in M4A by lowering the eligibility age, you are only facing the increased demand of those 60-64, most of whom already have insurance and have been seeing doctors as needed. Doesn't sound like such a crush now - and that is the oldest tranche that would need to be phased in. It would just get easier as you added younger and younger people.

Does this sound like an argument for public control over the means of producing food?

Interesting that you would choose to use North Korea and Cuba as the points of comparison, rather than other developed countries that already have universal healthcare.

Sure, but it's all got to be paid for, and with all this demand means prices go up, not down.

Again, the government sets the price.

Maybe this would be an opportunity for healthcare insurers to make themselves useful before they become extinct. You know, by keeping prices down, as so many apologists claim they do now.

An astute observation, but if I recall correctly, medicare accounts for about 20% of all healthcare spending. Things would look drastically different if it covered 100%.

Let's hope so. In the meantime, as people are phased in, the percentages wouldn't look so drastic.

Insurance companies are not the problem. Their profits were essentially capped by obamacare.

Insurance companies are absolutely the problem. What other variable can explain the differences in cost and outcome vs. countries with universal healthcare?

 

[aociswundumho]

All the hurdles you listed are handled or endured by countries that have universal healthcare to some degree of success.

What a ringing endorsement.

They are kinks in the system, not obstacles to implementing the system altogether. All countries who have universal healthcare and suffer from problems such as waiting lists have deemed it better than not caring for people at all.

Those aren't the only two options, and a system based on coercion cannot be "caring" in any real sense.

You can’t sit there and whine that Medicare would bankrupt the country when it hasn’t bankrupted any others. It’s just a matter of spending priorities and in the cases of places like Britain and Canada, properly taxing the rich and corporations to cover it, in some cases tort reform to keep costs down. Totally doable. The Political will is lacking.

That's the only thing you got right, and it's still an understatement. The US healthcare system is a cash cow, and all that money buys a lot of political influence, and a lot of lobbyists who make sure nothing really changes.

 

[uptower]

What a ringing endorsement.



Those aren't the only two options, and a system based on coercion cannot be "caring" in any real sense.



That's the only thing you got right, and it's still an understatement. The US healthcare system is a cash cow, and all that money buys a lot of political influence, and a lot of lobbyists who make sure nothing really changes.

Yes, It is a ringing endorsement. No system is perfect but one that tries to include everyone is far better than one that actively excludes much of the population. There’s also no ‘coercion’. Those countries still have private hospitals and insurance for those who can afford it.

It seems you’re woefully underinformed about what goes on outside America: the fact is in most developed and democratic countries everyone has access to healthcare and it’s mostly affordable, whereas in America large groups are excluded by design. There is no way that system can be ‘better’ unless you want to deny people healthcare.

 

[Callen]

The wasted money in administring and managing three different government run health care systems plus the money spent by doctors and hospitals in dealing with the various insurance payment systems would probably come close to paying for universal health care !!!