Activists call for nationwide protests to protect Mueller investigation

[TU Curmudgeon]

Would that be a problem for you if that happens?

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Only because those facts are never going to come out in the next 75 years (and when the do come out aren't likely to be relevant to anything other than "I didn't want to risk impeachment.").

I don't have any problem with people deferring saying "It is a FACT that ..." in order to await confirmatory evidence.

I have a real problem with people deferring saying "Based on what we know so far, my OPINION is that ..., BUT we shouldn't make any FINAL judgment until all of the facts that we are going to get are in." in order to prelude consideration of what is already known.

You might want to consider that those people who are currently using the

"We cannot make ANY decision until ALL of the facts are in (and if we never get ALL of the facts then we shouldn't make any decision at all)."
​

line with respect to Mr. Trump are also the ones who take the position that

"Because some allegations have been made, investigated, disproved, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, and then remade against Ms. Clinton we should **L*O*C*K** **H*E*R** **U*P**.".
​

Of course, you don't consider that that is in the least bit two-faced.

Right?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Sp you agree he must recuse himself because he has predetermined the results of the investigation.

He has NOT "predetermined the results of the investigation" one little bit.

If the investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the second investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the second investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the third investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the third investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the fourth investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the fourth investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the fifth investigation ...
​

So, you can see that there is absolutely nothing in the least bit "predetermined" about the findings.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not only Trump but Republicans in Congress are sitting up and taking notice because once people take to the streets en masse in this way, it's surely sending a strong message to those elected officials and they'd be wise to take notice.

Any bets on what percentage of those protesters had "more important things to do than vote" on the 6th?

PS - Please rate yourself from -50 to +50 on the "Right/Left Scale" (far right = -50 and far left = +50) so that your percentage can be normalized.

 

[iguanaman]

He has NOT "predetermined the results of the investigation" one little bit.

If the investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the second investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the second investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the third investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the third investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the fourth investigation results in a finding that there was absolutely nothing wrong, he will determine that the investigation was properly conducted and accept it's findings whole-heartedly.

If the fourth investigation results in a finding that there WAS something wrong, he will determine that the investigation was flawed and its records should be destroyed in the interests of national security so that a new investigation can be conducted.

If the fifth investigation ...
​

So, you can see that there is absolutely nothing in the least bit "predetermined" about the findings.

If I were Mueller I would continue to report to Rosenstein because the appointed AG is not valid. All DOJ defendants lawyers are most likely pettioning to the courts to have their cases dismissed since the AG has no authority to prosecute any case.

 

[Nickyjo]

Let me know when your imaginary scenario...you know, Trump firing Mueller...happens. Until then, don't try to pass off your imagination as fact and reality.

By what logic does one have to wait til he is fired before expressing concern about a presidency that is hostile to his investigation and to an AG who showed some ethics? I presume that Trump will not fire Mueller, but his attitude towards the DOJ and his hiring of this political hack raises concerns. Trump gets politics marvelously. He doesn't get government as well. As noted, "where's my Roy Cohn?" sums it up.

 

[trouble13]

Only because those facts are never going to come out in the next 75 years (and when the do come out aren't likely to be relevant to anything other than "I didn't want to risk impeachment.").

I don't have any problem with people deferring saying "It is a FACT that ..." in order to await confirmatory evidence.

I have a real problem with people deferring saying "Based on what we know so far, my OPINION is that ..., BUT we shouldn't make any FINAL judgment until all of the facts that we are going to get are in." in order to prelude consideration of what is already known.

You might want to consider that those people who are currently using the

"We cannot make ANY decision until ALL of the facts are in (and if we never get ALL of the facts then we shouldn't make any decision at all)."
​

line with respect to Mr. Trump are also the ones who take the position that

"Because some allegations have been made, investigated, disproved, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, remade, investigated again, disproved again, and then remade against Ms. Clinton we should **L*O*C*K** **H*E*R** **U*P**.".
​

Of course, you don't consider that that is in the least bit two-faced.

Right?

Actually im not part of the lock her up crowd. I think she is guility of keeping gov emails on a private server and should be charged appropiately but im not too keen on putting a former first lady in jail.

Im also fine with the findings that exonerated over benghazi. They lied about it for whatever reason but i dont think they purposely or carlessly got our people killed. I think it was a bad situtation and the gop tried to score political points from it.

I also did not vote against clinton. I voted for trump. I think he was the better option but i was not afraid of her becoming president. She represented more of the same and he represented change. I voted for change.

I am also one of the people who has been saying lets wait and see with the trump investigation. I have not seen enough to support the allegations and i have enough to be suspicious of the investigations integrity. I remain open to many outcomes until we learn more.

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[MTAtech]

I took that phrase from the protesters and Moveon.org.
How does Congress make a law telling the President what he must do with the Executive branch? They have no authority to do so. Does the President get to tell Chuck Schumer who his underlings should be and when he can change them out? Of course not. This would be a violation of Separation of Powers. They are trying to put Mueller above that law.

Congress has remedies for this, as laid out in the Constitution. If they think it's an impeachable offense for the President to switch AG's, then go ahead, get going with impeachment, see how much support there is for that.

What gives Congress the right? The Constitution, baby!

Article I, Section 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

 

[Anthony60]

What gives Congress the right? The Constitution, baby!

No. Separation of Powers. They can't tell the President to keep people on that he doesn't want. I don't see anything there that allows them to do so.

 

[MTAtech]

No. Separation of Powers. They can't tell the President to keep people on that he doesn't want. I don't see anything there that allows them to do so.

If you say so, Mr. Chief Justice.

 

[Athanasius68]

Sp you agree he must recuse himself because he has predetermined the results of the investigation.

He said nothing of the sort. He has basically said what others have also said: for example Manaforts prosecution had NOTHING to do with collusion and Mueller.

 

[Mycroft]

So you now have admitted that Trump is guilty and trying to obstruct justice. The special prosecutor investigating Nixon gave his information to the House so we have a precedent there.

See post #64...and move on.

 

[Mycroft]

By what logic does one have to wait til he is fired before expressing concern about a presidency that is hostile to his investigation and to an AG who showed some ethics? I presume that Trump will not fire Mueller, but his attitude towards the DOJ and his hiring of this political hack raises concerns. Trump gets politics marvelously. He doesn't get government as well. As noted, "where's my Roy Cohn?" sums it up.

There is no logic in your imaginary scenario. Only your imagination.

Look. You can repeat your fantasy all you like. You can speculate all you like. You can spin all you like and apply innuendo and hyperbole along with it. None of that is reality. It's only your imagination.

As I said...let me know when Trump fires Mueller. Keep your fantasy to yourself.

 

[j-mac]

It's a signal to Republicans in the Senate, Congress, and the White House Just like the eating at a photo op spot by Jeff Sessions and Rosenstein in solidarity. Except this time, it's a lot more people.

Trump basically loaded and cocked the gun. But has he shot!!?!?! Why wait until he's pulled the trigger to prepare the alarm? You don't, that would be stupid.

It could be Trump shenanigans, it could be something else.
- why did they fire the AG?
- why did the deputy AG not take his place as is customary for acting?
- why did they put a trump lacky, who has spoken out against the Mueller investigation, and isn't qualified?
- why has Trump obstructed numerous times in the past?

Acting like he's so innocent, is absurd. None of those should have been done, in that way, and if it was really something the White House were being responsible with, even if they chose to be this stupid, so many times, they could simply have Whittaker say he's leaving the investigation to Rosenstein until a new AG is confirmed.

Why should the WH do ANYTHING to please liberals?

 

[iguanaman]

Why should the WH do ANYTHING to please liberals?

You really mean why should Trump obey our laws. That's an easy one. Because he must be indicted and impeached if he does not.

 

[Moderate Right]

Reuters



There's currently what appears to be a massive media blackout on this. There are over 900 protests beginning at 5pm local time today. This is part of the "MUELLER PROTECTION RAPID RESPONSE" by MoveOn that has been organized for over a year and was triggered by the firing of Jeff Sessions. Protesters are planning on digging in and not leaving. This could get interesting if it picks up like Occupy Wall Street did.

MoveOn

I never even heard of this until just reading this thread today (Friday). It must have been a fizzle.

 

[Moderate Right]

He will at first, but if it goes on for weeks, months, and keeps getting coverage...

Didn't even get one day out of it. This is the first I have heard of it.

 

[j-mac]

You really mean why should Trump obey our laws. That's an easy one. Because he must be indicted and impeached if he does not.

Ok, now you have to cite what laws he has broken....

 

[Moderate Right]

Those were temporary, these are meant to be sustained like Occupy was and they are on a massive scale.

Ummmmmmmmm. Occupy didn't accomplish one damn thing.

 

[iguanaman]

Ok, now you have to cite what laws he has broken....

You mean today?

 

[j-mac]

You mean today?

Sure start there, and work backwards....Remember not accusations, or rumors, or hate filled blather, just credible laws the President of the United States has broken with accompanying documentation....Thanks.

 

[Nickyjo]

There is no logic in your imaginary scenario. Only your imagination.

Look. You can repeat your fantasy all you like. You can speculate all you like. You can spin all you like and apply innuendo and hyperbole along with it. None of that is reality. It's only your imagination.

As I said...let me know when Trump fires Mueller. Keep your fantasy to yourself.

So my concern that Trump might fire Mueller is a fantasy, much like my concern that he won't let refugees seek asylum per current law is a fantasy. I also had a fantasy that he would withdraw from the Paris agreement and weaken labor protections. Fantasy turned into reality in those cases. Someone takes a swing at me, I should wait til their fist hits my nose before ducking? Sounds like a plan.

 

[Mycroft]

So my concern that Trump might fire Mueller is a fantasy, much like my concern that he won't let refugees seek asylum per current law is a fantasy. I also had a fantasy that he would withdraw from the Paris agreement and weaken labor protections. Fantasy turned into reality in those cases. Someone takes a swing at me, I should wait til their fist hits my nose before ducking? Sounds like a plan.

Trump might **** on the White House lawn...but that is just as much of a fantasy as the contention that Trump will fire Mueller.

 

[Mach]

Whittaker said breaking away from the point of the investigation; Trump and Russia conspiring to fix the 2016 election, would be the witch hunt.

He's already stated Trump's positions nearly word for word on an ongoing investigation. No way he can have control over that investigation, regardless of whether or not he was allowed to be appointed to that role in the first place. Whittaker also was the campaign chairman for Clovis, a trump campaign aid, who had to go before Mueller's grand jury. https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/07/politics/whitaker-sessions-mueller-clovis/index.html So many clues.

 

[Nickyjo]

Trump might **** on the White House lawn...but that is just as much of a fantasy as the contention that Trump will fire Mueller.

I believe you that it is unlikely. What I see happening would be more subtle.

Of course, I have this alternate demonic fantasy that with the investigation over, Mueller has a press conference in a packed, overflowing room, reporters' speed dial to their editors at the ready, an entire nation tuned in... he steps to the Mike and says, "I got nothin'. Nada. Can't understand why we even bothered."

 

[Mycroft]

I believe you that it is unlikely. What I see happening would be more subtle.

Of course, I have this alternate demonic fantasy that with the investigation over, Mueller has a press conference in a packed, overflowing room, reporters' speed dial to their editors at the ready, an entire nation tuned in... he steps to the Mike and says, "I got nothin'. Nada. Can't understand why we even bothered."

Well, first of all I don't think Mueller is going to get up before any press conference. He will send a report to the DOJ, though.

It's possible the DOJ could speak to the press about the conclusions in the report...or they may not say anything. Either course would be acceptable...by law, at least. The public would howl in rage if the DOJ doesn't say anything.

It's entirely possible that Mueller has nothing else to report except in reference to what he's already done...Flynn, Papa, Manafort, etc.

Me? I'm content to just wait and see what happens.