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Absolutely sick and tired of it....

I'm sorry; I was in a bit of a hurry when I made that post. Here's what I mean:

Other parties should be allowed to run with far fewer restrictions than are currently placed upon them, and it should be more or less the same in every state. If a party can get, say, 2500 signatures or so within a week of the general election, they ought to be able to get their candidate on the ballot without meeting any further additions.

Also, I do not wish to silence the press. I do think, in order to break the hold of monied interests (mainly banks and corporations), we need to establish rules about debate coverage and commercial air-time which all news agencies have to stick with, and which guarantee roughly equal time to anyone on the ballot.

Here's an example of what I mean: every election year, the presidential candidate from the socialist party, the constitution party, the green party, and probably some others, challenge the Republican and Democratic party presidential candidates to a debate. They are always turned down, because debates are run by private entities funded by corporations. If you study how the elections in the Roman Republic used to work, this is pretty close to the same. People need to be able to hear other ideas, and they need to be able to see those ideas tested in honest debate.



I'm afraid I disagree. It would give those interests that have a very firm hold now an absolute death-grip. Since I used to play this game on a smaller scale, here's how I would operate if term limits were in place, and I was in charge of donating my company's money to a particular set of campaigns. First, I would make clear to the chosen candidate that they work for us. They're going to get two terms, and then who knows where fate will take them? Do they want a position in a cushy think-tank with a six-figure sallary, lecture and lobbying opportunities, etc? Or do they want to end up managing a Wendy's (or worse)? Because I (not I myself, but the fictional "I" in this scenario) can make either happen.

The only thing that affects me is that when I really need something done, I have to buy multiple elections. That's really no problem, since I have a whole industry next to me that understands cooperation with the appearance of competition is the best means of making money. We may try to undersell each other at the retail level, but the people in charge of the companies in my industry understand that the political conditions which favor all, favor each. So we buy a block of politicians, from whom we expect results. If we don't get those results, we make examples of them. They end up as ditch-diggers when they get out of office. Maybe one or two have a fatal accident. Either way, the next bunch understand we have laws we want passed, and it's their job to do it. If they do it, they get paid. If they don't, they get fired, just like the last bunch.

Being in office is far from the end-all, be-all of power, money, and influence. Politicians with term limits will be, if anything, even more frightened of what happens after their term is done.



I've known some of these uber-rich that own elections. Let me tell you: they don't always figure out how to get someone else to pay for the golden parachute, but they're far better at playing the game than most people could possibly understand. Something like this would not be seen as an obstacle, but as a reason to offload more and more costs onto the general public. I was on my way to the same fate, until I began to realize what that really means.

Wow. You've really given me something to think about here. What you say about "how you'd work it" just makes me nod my head yes. Thanks -- great post.
 
I cant imagine any lawmakers didnt read it before it passed. Of course, if you understood how bills are written, you'd understand that one cannot read an entire bill - its literally nonsensical unless you have memorized the laws that it is amending. You read an executive summary.

How did Obama directly lie? This should be good....

yes, our elected officials should read every stinking bill before they vote on it. Thats what they are elected to do, represent their constituents and not reading a bill - how do they know whats really in it and if they dont know whats really in it, how can they vote and accurately represent their constituents? Guess?

Thats the problem now, they dont read **** before voting on it.

Would you sign a contract without reading it by just looking at the summary?


How did Obama lie?

How about....
Its not a tax.
He went on his "publicity tour" promoting Obamacare, all awhile proclaiming it was NOT a tax.
They argued in front of all the lower courts that it was not a tax...but in front of SCOTUS, they proclaimed it to be a tax.
Gibbs 2010: Obamacare is Not a Tax - YouTube
Obamacare : FLASHBACK President Obama said Individual Mandate Is Not a Tax (Sept 20, 2009) - YouTube - this one is funny...even ole George was taken back by Obama's "its not a tax"....If you have to resort to the dictionary definition of what a tax is you are grasping at straws...LOL

How about...
If you like your healthcare plan you can keep it....turns out that was a lie too.
Obama You can keep your doctor - YouTube

How about....
It will make healthcare more affordable....
https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy...08,d.eWU&fp=8d786327089c7a38&biw=1618&bih=965
Take your pick from all those articles proving yet another lie.

He even lied about his mother and her coverage being denied and led to her death...when her own book refutes his telling of the tale.
https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy...or.r_qf.&fp=8d786327089c7a38&biw=1618&bih=965
Obama lies about his mother's cancer and death... Again! - YouTube
 
Hah.

Too much to debunk.

We've established you don't understand the concept of an executive summary, and think people need to read thousands of pages of a bill to understand it, when most of those pages refer to paragraphs and sections of laws in the federal register that are being deleted or modified.

This is the summary of the bill. 16 pages.

http://www.dpc.senate.gov/healthreformbill/healthbill52.pdf
 
Hah.

Too much to debunk.

We've established you don't understand the concept of an executive summary, and think people need to read thousands of pages of a bill to understand it, when most of those pages refer to paragraphs and sections of laws in the federal register that are being deleted or modified.

This is the summary of the bill. 16 pages.

http://www.dpc.senate.gov/healthreformbill/healthbill52.pdf

LMAO....too much to debunk...you are funny. Is that the way you Obamacare defenders are now saving face? I gave you his own words with video of him lying directly to the people....he lied to you and everyone else out there to fight for the passage of that stink bill.

Yea, that 16 page summary makes that bill sound wonderful.....is that what the summaries are supposed to do...make the crap sound good? I bet you could write a 16 page summary on Hitler and make it sound like he was Mother Theresa.

They dont need to read bills before they vote on them, they can read a summary that makes it sound all rosy & good......LOLOLOLOLOL....and you sit and wonder why this country is in the shape it is in.
 
Like many people out there I am sick and tired of our politicians doing things that are more beneficial to their (and their party's) chances of re-election rather than what the Constitution allows or common sense dictates.

The latest straw to be placed upon the camels back is the "extension" of Obamacare provision that mandates employers provide benefits or pay a fine. This provision has been delayed for 1 year...after the mid-term elections.

If this law is so important and, as the proponents claim, people are dying every day because they dont have health care coverage, wouldnt you think that the sooner they implement this law the sooner people will stop dying? (Sarcasm)

But apparently it isnt that important because all too many unions, companies & if the Immigration bill were to pass, all the newly legalized immigrants would all be immune to Obamacare. If it was such an important thing, why are the politicians buddies & large donors getting waivers? If they want to make all the illegals legal, shouldnt they also have to conform to our laws and not be immune to them?

Pandering for votes is all it is.

This upcoming election we need to get rid of these self important politicians who are more worried about themselves than they are doing the job they were elected to do in the first place.

If you are one of those who believe in your party (Rep or Dem) keep voting for them...but elect new blood, stop this same old same old B.S. by not re-electing the same old turds that have been soiling our capitol & W.H. for years.

They are the problem and the solution is to fire each and every one of them and elect real honest citizens to represent us. From the house to the Senate to the W.H. we need new blood. New blood that has not been corrupted by the business as usual mentality in Washington.

when the new bloods are the nutty Pauls and Ted "Joe McCarthy" Cruz , people stick with the old ones ... it's not the people per se ... it's a political and economic system that favors corporations and the wealthy ...
 
when the new bloods are the nutty Pauls and Ted "Joe McCarthy" Cruz , people stick with the old ones ... it's not the people per se ... it's a political and economic system that favors corporations and the wealthy ...

They are all the same, it doesnt matter which party they affiliate themselves with....you need to get over the Dem vs. Repub thing.

You bash the Repubs for selling out to corporations & the wealthy but overlook the Dems doing the exact same thing?
 
LMAO....too much to debunk...you are funny. Is that the way you Obamacare defenders are now saving face? I gave you his own words with video of him lying directly to the people....he lied to you and everyone else out there to fight for the passage of that stink bill.

Yea, that 16 page summary makes that bill sound wonderful.....is that what the summaries are supposed to do...make the crap sound good? I bet you could write a 16 page summary on Hitler and make it sound like he was Mother Theresa.

They dont need to read bills before they vote on them, they can read a summary that makes it sound all rosy & good......LOLOLOLOLOL....and you sit and wonder why this country is in the shape it is in.

So you think the summary makes it sound good. Maybe your rage toward it is misdirected then. Ever think if that?

I'm just kidding. It's pretty clear to me you wouldn't even make the minimal effort to read that summary, because your too busy railing about others not reading it.

As for your "lies", they're really tough to classify as lies at all. A technical legal defense, a claim that your plan won't change, and a claim about insurance disputed by a book who's author wouldn't know the truth.
 
As always, the first thing that needs to be solved is the money in elections. You want to do something about the corruption? Fund elections on public money and don't let the special interests, corporations, and PACs buy candidates. Don't make elections about fundraising.
 
They are all the same, it doesnt matter which party they affiliate themselves with....you need to get over the Dem vs. Repub thing.

You bash the Repubs for selling out to corporations & the wealthy but overlook the Dems doing the exact same thing?

read posts more carefully ... I said it was the political amd economic system ... How is that Rep v. Dem?
 
I'm sick and tired of militarized police forces doing no-knock post-midnight raids on unarmed pot heads sleeping in their own homes. But, most people are too wrapped up in their love for law and order and hate for smelly hippies to give a ****. Instead they whine about Obama this and Pelosi that.
 
The banks and corporations own the government.

Correct statement.

This free market people talk about is such a farce

No, it's an ideal we're doing a terrible job of living up to, as evidenced by your correct previous statement.

What's ridiculous is acknowledging the banks and corporations own government, and/or that we need to get money out of politics, but then look to politicians to make that change happen.
 
So you think the summary makes it sound good. Maybe your rage toward it is misdirected then. Ever think if that?

I'm just kidding. It's pretty clear to me you wouldn't even make the minimal effort to read that summary, because your too busy railing about others not reading it.

As for your "lies", they're really tough to classify as lies at all. A technical legal defense, a claim that your plan won't change, and a claim about insurance disputed by a book who's author wouldn't know the truth.

yes, I read the summary and it didnt scratch the surface of what is in the bill...only the fuzzy warm stuff to make it sound irresistible. Try reading the bill - Law and see how well the summary covered what is in there.


His lies are tough to classify as lies?
Its not a tax...yes it is
You can keep your doctor....not really, you cant
You can keep your health plan...not really, you cant

As far as him blatantly lying about his mother's death & insurance battle....
Obama Still Lying About Mother

The woman who "wouldn't know the truth" only has proof on her side to back up her writing....when the Obama's were asked about it, the release came out from the W.H. (paraphrase) - Do you expect the President to remember something that happened 15 years ago?


Politicians lie...thats to be understood and taken with a grain of salt, but Obama has made lying an art form.
 
read posts more carefully ... I said it was the political amd economic system ... How is that Rep v. Dem?

Because you opened your last post with - "when the new bloods are the nutty Pauls and Ted "Joe McCarthy" Cruz , people stick with the old ones ... it's not the people per se ... it's a political and economic system that favors corporations and the wealthy ..."
 
Like many people out there I am sick and tired of our politicians doing things that are more beneficial to their (and their party's) chances of re-election rather than what the Constitution allows or common sense dictates.
I assure you, whatever system you imagine would fix this issue, won't.

You cannot take the politics out of politics.


The latest straw to be placed upon the camels back is the "extension" of Obamacare provision that mandates employers provide benefits or pay a fine. This provision has been delayed for 1 year...after the mid-term elections.
THE HORROR!!!


If this law is so important and, as the proponents claim, people are dying every day because they dont have health care coverage, wouldnt you think that the sooner they implement this law the sooner people will stop dying?
It's better to have the law implemented correctly, rather than implemented quickly.


Pandering for votes is all it is.
So was Romney's claim to oppose Obamacare -- which, after all, was closely based on Romneycare. What's your point again?

Oh wait, I figured it out. You can't stand the idea of Obamacare, so anything you can say bad about it is fair game. Gotcha.


If you are one of those who believe in your party (Rep or Dem) keep voting for them...but elect new blood, stop this same old same old B.S. by not re-electing the same old turds that have been soiling our capitol & W.H. for years.
Actually, "fresh blood" has been injected into the legislature at least twice in recent memory. First during Clinton's term, second a few years ago -- numerous incumbents were replaced by Tea Party types. It doesn't seem to have helped much, has it? ;)

Voting for inexperienced politicians is not going to guarantee the policy results you want. The legislature is going to write laws. You might like some of them, and dislike others. That's how it works when you live in a society of 300 million people, who do not believe the exact same thing as you.
 
Because you opened your last post with - "when the new bloods are the nutty Pauls and Ted "Joe McCarthy" Cruz , people stick with the old ones ... it's not the people per se ... it's a political and economic system that favors corporations and the wealthy ..."

so let me ask again ... how is that Dem v. Repub? "IT'S A POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT FAVORS CORPORATIONS AND THE WEALTHY." and I said "IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE PER SE" ... but given the choice between Dems and Republicans, the former is a bit closer to where I am politically (far left) ...
 
I assure you, whatever system you imagine would fix this issue, won't.

You cannot take the politics out of politics.



THE HORROR!!!



It's better to have the law implemented correctly, rather than implemented quickly.



So was Romney's claim to oppose Obamacare -- which, after all, was closely based on Romneycare. What's your point again?

Oh wait, I figured it out. You can't stand the idea of Obamacare, so anything you can say bad about it is fair game. Gotcha.



Actually, "fresh blood" has been injected into the legislature at least twice in recent memory. First during Clinton's term, second a few years ago -- numerous incumbents were replaced by Tea Party types. It doesn't seem to have helped much, has it? ;)

Voting for inexperienced politicians is not going to guarantee the policy results you want. The legislature is going to write laws. You might like some of them, and dislike others. That's how it works when you live in a society of 300 million people, who do not believe the exact same thing as you.

So you are happy with the government we have now?

The ones who are too busy pandering to their financial backers to worry about doing what they were elected to do?

Yes, we have changed quite a few faces in Congress over the past 20 years but nowhere near enough. However the Reid's, Boener's, McCain's, Pelosi's are still there leading their respective party's and this country into the toilet.

Its funny, its always the other guy that sucks, its is never "your guy" or "your party" that does anything wrong.

As far as Obamacare, the law sucked from the start. No amount of time will fix its implementation. Things they should have addressed werent addressed and things they did address had nothing to do with the current healthcare systems issues. It is a clusterfuk.

As far as it using Romneycare as its patron, I agree with that...but there is one small significant detail you are overlooking...Romneycare is state mandated and state run not Federally funded boondoggle.
 
so let me ask again ... how is that Dem v. Repub? "IT'S A POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT FAVORS CORPORATIONS AND THE WEALTHY." and I said "IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE PER SE" ... but given the choice between Dems and Republicans, the former is a bit closer to where I am politically (far left) ...

You can be as far left as you want to be, it still doesnt change the way you put your initial response. You only listed Repubs as the new bloods....an oversight on your part maybe but thats where I seen you making your point from.

I think they all need to go, every single incumbent needs to be fired every time we get a chance to do so. Regardless of party moniker.

Reid, Grahm, Pelosi, McCain, etc, etc, etc... need to be sent out to pasture.

Its pretty much the same people running the show for the past 20 years...we are seeing first hand how bad we have gotten as a country over the past 20 years...its all been down-hill with spending, debt, education etc.

A Republican Administration started the domestic spying & wiretapping and a Democrat Administration put that policy on steroids (just one example). They are one and the same....its the individual people that need to be ousted just in the hopes of getting our country back on track.
 
So you are happy with the government we have now?
Could be better, could be worse. A lot worse.

And to reiterate, putting novices into office doesn't appear to have helped. For example, a common complaint against Obama during his first term and election was the claim that he *cough* lacked experience. And for some odd reason, you aren't praising his performance. Hmmmmm

It seems to me the problem here isn't that you want fresh faces. It's that you want everyone else to agree with your policy preferences, and elect people with the same point of view as you. If that's what you want, why not just say so?


The ones who are too busy pandering to their financial backers to worry about doing what they were elected to do?
Sadly, short of amending the Constitution, it's going to be extremely difficult to tamp down the influence of money on politics. Electing novices certainly hasn't changed that.


As far as Obamacare, the law sucked from the start. No amount of time will fix its implementation. Things they should have addressed werent addressed and things they did address had nothing to do with the current healthcare systems issues.
Yes, it would've been much better if they went straight to a single-payer system. n00bs, what can you do. ;)

Then again, we have seen costs drop slightly, we've seen insurers sending rebates to ratepayers, we will soon see the exchanges, and the insurers will soon no longer be able to redline people who have pre-existing conditions. Odds are pretty good that once it's fully up and running, and a few bugs are worked out, it will probably be alright.


As far as it using Romneycare as its patron, I agree with that...but there is one small significant detail you are overlooking...Romneycare is state mandated and state run not Federally funded boondoggle.
Yes, I'm sure Romney's primary objection to extending his own program is an objection to federalism. It had nothing to do with politics, or pandering to the far right. :mrgreen:
 
It's not just that younger less experienced politicians lack wisdom and experience they're all politically correct goody goodies with no common sense.
 
Could be better, could be worse. A lot worse.

And to reiterate, putting novices into office doesn't appear to have helped. For example, a common complaint against Obama during his first term and election was the claim that he *cough* lacked experience. And for some odd reason, you aren't praising his performance. Hmmmmm

It could be better, could be worse, could be a LOT better...
Not every one elected will be a "home run" candidate but we know we have a bunch of loosers now who are more interested with lining their own pockets and gaining power, so why not trade that out for a better candidate....we cant do worse than what we have now.

It seems to me the problem here isn't that you want fresh faces. It's that you want everyone else to agree with your policy preferences, and elect people with the same point of view as you. If that's what you want, why not just say so?

No, that wouldnt be fun at all...if everyone agreed all the time we wouldnt get many new ideas. We need to strive to be better not strive for conformity.


Sadly, short of amending the Constitution, it's going to be extremely difficult to tamp down the influence of money on politics. Electing novices certainly hasn't changed that.

hasnt changed what? we havent tried firing them all yet....lets give it a shot and see what happens. Certainly non-lifelong politicians interests wont be as immediately corruptible as those already corrupted who are in office now. By the time they would become as corrupt as the thieves there now they would be gone from office.

Yes, it would've been much better if they went straight to a single-payer system. n00bs, what can you do. ;)

A single payer system hasnt worked successfully anywhere it has been tried, Canada and England are even putting private doctors back into availability because their single payer system isnt working...Now Germany has a system that if run at our state levels might be the key to the problem.

Then again, we have seen costs drop slightly, we've seen insurers sending rebates to ratepayers, we will soon see the exchanges, and the insurers will soon no longer be able to redline people who have pre-existing conditions. Odds are pretty good that once it's fully up and running, and a few bugs are worked out, it will probably be alright.

Where have costs dropped? In Fantasy land? Every single medical need, item, procedure is rising in cost. The medical device tax raised the costs of every single health item you buy. Band-aids, sanitary napkins, ointment, toothbrushes, eye drops, a box of tissues....yea, they are all considered medical devices and have the additional tax from Obamacare.

Hell, even my dogs vet (got my little dog fixed a few weeks back) we got hit for the 10% medical device tax on the equipment used, the stitches, the ointment from Obamacare because the idiots who wrote the bill didnt omit animals from the damn device tax.

Yes, I'm sure Romney's primary objection to extending his own program is an objection to federalism. It had nothing to do with politics, or pandering to the far right. :mrgreen:

Im sure you are right about Romney....but that goes back to the original argument....career politicians lie through their teeth, aint none of them any good.
Obamacare & Romneycare....there is no real comparison between the two....Romneycare didnt take over the student loan program, Romneycare didnt mandate 15,000 new IRS agents, Romneycare is done at a state level (which Conservatives & even Libertarians are in favor of...governing is done best when done locally)

The only people who are in favor of the status quo of keeping the loosers we have in there now are seemingly big government proponents.
 
It's not just that younger less experienced politicians lack wisdom and experience they're all politically correct goody goodies with no common sense.

For the last 100 or so years all that gets elected are the same old Repubs & Dems overt and over again....how well has that been working out for us? Pretty ****ty actually.

Who said anything about them having to be younger? Younger is not all necessarily bad tho...

But yes, they would have less experience....
less experience screwing over the people for their own benefit
less experience pandering to the lobbyists
less experience in taking away our freedoms & rights


I am all for less experienced people being in office.
 
For the last 100 or so years all that gets elected are the same old Repubs & Dems overt and over again....how well has that been working out for us? Pretty ****ty actually.

Who said anything about them having to be younger? Younger is not all necessarily bad tho...

But yes, they would have less experience....
less experience screwing over the people for their own benefit
less experience pandering to the lobbyists
less experience in taking away our freedoms & rights


I am all for less experienced people being in office.

Less experience doesn't inherently make you a poor politician but there is no replacement for wisdom. Tearing down an established system without forethought of how to keep things in working order isn't realistic. Look at all these uprisings and takeovers in the Middle East. They're an absolute mess and the people are not better off because sudden and violent transition is destructive and sloppy.

I actually agree that the current system is corrupt but it needs to be pressured to change from within, especially with campaign reform. Just voting in new members won't change them from playing the same old game, you've got to slowly change the rules to benefit everyone.
 
Less experience doesn't inherently make you a poor politician but there is no replacement for wisdom. Tearing down an established system without forethought of how to keep things in working order isn't realistic. Look at all these uprisings and takeovers in the Middle East. They're an absolute mess and the people are not better off because sudden and violent transition is destructive and sloppy.

I actually agree that the current system is corrupt but it needs to be pressured to change from within, especially with campaign reform. Just voting in new members won't change them from playing the same old game, you've got to slowly change the rules to benefit everyone.

I just dont agree. The rules of order are easy to follow. There would still be senior members of the Senate there because they only come up for election every 6 years, thats 3 elections.

And wisdom comes with life experience. How much life experience do you think these life-time politicians are experiencing inside the belt way?

I believe firing the incumbents and replacing them with new views, ideas, policies is a good thing.
I think that the lobbyists would have a more difficult time establishing new politicians pockets to sit in when the politicians keep changing.

What our Congress & President (not just the present administration either) are doing is purely partisan party charged bull squeeze, they are not doing what the people sent them there to do and that is to represent us.

If you are part of a company and dont do what you were hired to do...you get fired. Our government should be held to the same standards, after all they work for us.
 
You can be as far left as you want to be, it still doesnt change the way you put your initial response. You only listed Repubs as the new bloods....an oversight on your part maybe but thats where I seen you making your point from.

I think they all need to go, every single incumbent needs to be fired every time we get a chance to do so. Regardless of party moniker.

Reid, Grahm, Pelosi, McCain, etc, etc, etc... need to be sent out to pasture.

Its pretty much the same people running the show for the past 20 years...we are seeing first hand how bad we have gotten as a country over the past 20 years...its all been down-hill with spending, debt, education etc.

A Republican Administration started the domestic spying & wiretapping and a Democrat Administration put that policy on steroids (just one example). They are one and the same....its the individual people that need to be ousted just in the hopes of getting our country back on track.

no sense belaboring the point ... we'll have to agreed to disagree ... we agree to some degree, except it's more than the "people" ... but I noticed that you are a Libertarian ... you wouldn't be suggesting the Pauls as alternatives, would you?
 
Two words: Term Limits.

I don't know how term limits would have any effect on politicians' desires to preserve their party over actually governing. Not fully opposed to term limits but I just don't see a tie between these two issues.
 
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