A Marine Explains Why It's Time to Leave Afghanistan

[VanceMack]

Of course we lose more....we had half the soldiers in the country than we do now. We basically ceeded large swaths to Taliban control when we focused the majority of forces in Iraq. Obama stated what he was going to do and he's done it.

He's also expanded drone attacks in other countries that are bases of operation.

I'm not the biggest fan of what Obama's done but it's done exactly what he campaigned on. Now the hawkish party has apparently become the doves on Afghanistan while upping the tempo on talk about Iran.

So pardon me if I don't really buy this anti-War bs from the right.

Some of us have been just as vocal on Afghanistan since...say...2006? Im not a dove...Im not anti-war. Im all about going in and doing the job. Not even a little bit squeamish. But if you expect to have any credibility on the issue...sorry...your ass better be as consistent with Bush as it is with Obama...and personally? Nah...I think you are full of ****. But thats just me.

 

[bicycleman]

Romeny has avoided all questions about afghanistan and hes indicated he would not be withdrawing

Well, then you have the answer. I agree with you. We need to get out of there. It's not worth one more American life.

 

[iliveonramen]

Some of us have been just as vocal on Afghanistan since...say...2006? Im not a dove...Im not anti-war. Im all about going in and doing the job. Not even a little bit squeamish. But if you expect to have any credibility on the issue...sorry...your ass better be as consistent with Bush as it is with Obama...and personally? Nah...I think you are full of ****. But thats just me.

I was actually consistent with Bush. I trusted in the Bush administration when they stated there were Weapon of Mass Destruction. I trusted they were basing the war on air tight intel that Saddam was working on weapons of mass destruction and that he was working with terrorists groups that wanted the goods to attack American soil.

When it came out that it was cherry picked intel to go to war and a PR campaign I lost faith in the Bush administration and after 8 years was like "why are we here again"? One year it's WMD's and links to terrrorists groups the next it's some Neo-Con garbage about spreading Demcracy in the Middle East.

I never criticized Bush on Afghanistan except for the fact that it was regulated to the periphriary of the War on Terror and concentration was on the War in Iraq. Even then it was only after it came to light that the war was fought on completely false pretense.

I don't care what you think. I have been consistent. Guess what....it wasn't the whole Democratic party that was in the streets protesting war. In fact those protesting both wars are still doing protesting them. Most Dems were supporting our missions until we found out we fought a pre-emptive war on bad intel.

 

[iliveonramen]

Yeah, that was 4 years ago. He has had plenty of time to do something. Yeah, I know, "It was Bush's fault."

Yes...Obama can singhandedly turn around a counter insurgency that's been going for 8 years. I mean they are so easy right? It's not like Guerrila warefare in Somilia, Vietnam, Iraq have caused our military problems. I'm sure the Republican party has some silver bullet to end Afghanistan. if only Obama would listen to them and bomb Iran we'd win Afghanistan....right?

 

[VanceMack]

I was actually consistent with Bush. I trusted in the Bush administration when they stated there were Weapon of Mass Destruction. I trusted they were basing the war on air tight intel that Saddam was working on weapons of mass destruction and that he was working with terrorists groups that wanted the goods to attack American soil.

When it came out that it was cherry picked intel to go to war and a PR campaign I lost faith in the Bush administration and after 8 years was like "why are we here again"? One year it's WMD's and links to terrrorists groups the next it's some Neo-Con garbage about spreading Demcracy in the Middle East.

I never criticized Bush on Afghanistan except for the fact that it was regulated to the periphriary of the War on Terror and concentration was on the War in Iraq. Even then it was only after it came to light that the war was fought on completely false pretense.

I don't care what you think. I have been consistent. Guess what....it wasn't the whole Democratic party that was in the streets protesting war. In fact those protesting both wars are still doing protesting them. Most Dems were supporting our missions until we found out we fought a pre-emptive war on bad intel.

The Afghanistan war was not relegated to the periphery of the 'War on Terror'. When you follow the history of the war, the Taliban was ousted and the new government was established. People in our own government as well as the UN were clamoring for the peacekeeping and follow up role to be turned over to the UN and NATO and since we were focused on Iraq, we obliged. They ****ed it up in about a month. The UN bailed as soon as there were a few bombings. The Afghan government never aggressively sought training and control over its military, nor did they ever work to bring the tribal chieftains in line. Karzai played both sides of the fence. It has devolved from a swift military victory to what it is now. Obama has for the last 3.5 years had his thumb up his ass and doesnt know whether to shoot, ****, run...nothing. You can blame Bush for where we were when he left office. I do. Obama owns his completely and totally inept handling of Afghanistan throughout his presidency. You give him a nice hug and pat on the back for that.

 

[VanceMack]

Yes...Obama can singhandedly turn around a counter insurgency that's been going for 8 years. I mean they are so easy right? It's not like Guerrila warefare in Somilia, Vietnam, Iraq have caused our military problems. I'm sure the Republican party has some silver bullet to end Afghanistan. if only Obama would listen to them and bomb Iran we'd win Afghanistan....right?

WTF...do you have absolutely ZERO expectations of the guy? Golly...he's only been president for FOUR YEARS...whatever could he POSSIBLY DO?

Nothing. Not a ****ing thing. Thats why he is a worthless turd that needs to be flushed. Luckily for him, I truly believe he has plenty of people that love clinging to that worthless turd and we will be stuck with him for another four years.

 

[iliveonramen]

The Afghanistan war was not relegated to the periphery of the 'War on Terror'. When you follow the history of the war, the Taliban was ousted and the new government was established. People in our own government as well as the UN were clamoring for the peacekeeping and follow up role to be turned over to the UN and NATO and since we were focused on Iraq, we obliged. They ****ed it up in about a month. The UN bailed as soon as there were a few bombings. The Afghan government never aggressively sought training and control over its military, nor did they ever work to bring the tribal chieftains in line. Karzai played both sides of the fence. It has devolved from a swift military victory to what it is now. Obama has for the last 3.5 years had his thumb up his ass and doesnt know whether to shoot, ****, run...nothing. You can blame Bush for where we were when he left office. I do. Obama owns his completely and totally inept handling of Afghanistan throughout his presidency. You give him a nice hug and pat on the back for that.

Point out where Obama effed up. By providing the surge the military asked for? By expanding drone attacks into Pakistan? You can't just point to the situation and say "well Obama really effed up Afghanistan" you shoudl have some clear cut examples of what exactly Obama did that led to this outcome. If not then you're just pointing to what has happened as proof that he messed up.

 

[lpast]

Well, then you have the answer. I agree with you. We need to get out of there. It's not worth one more American life.

I supported the war for a long time...I ALWAYS SUPPORT OUR TROOPS unequivocally, im sick and tired of reading about our kids being mangled and dismembered and killed...it breaks my heart..

 

[iliveonramen]

WTF...do you have absolutely ZERO expectations of the guy? Golly...he's only been president for FOUR YEARS...whatever could he POSSIBLY DO?

Nothing. Not a ****ing thing. Thats why he is a worthless turd that needs to be flushed. Luckily for him, I truly believe he has plenty of people that love clinging to that worthless turd and we will be stuck with him for another four years.

Like I said...please point out what Obama did wrong. From someone that has been a catostrophe in Afghanistan it should be very easy to point out which of his strategies led to our problems right?

 

[VanceMack]

Like I said...please point out what Obama did wrong. From someone that has been a catostrophe in Afghanistan it should be very easy to point out which of his strategies led to our problems right?

Followed the Bush 'surge' thinking WTF...it worked for Bush...it will work just as well in Afghanistan. Except of course the difference being in Iraq they actually went AFTER Al Qaida. What else. Oh...well...how about failing to have an actual mission strategy? How about failing to work with the Afghanistan government. How about...I dont know...ADDRESSING YOUR OWN COUNTRY every once in while. What he is doing wrong is the same thing Bush did wrong...he didnt have a plan to endops. He is clueless as to what to do next and as a result, our soldiers are there as targets.

Do YOU know what the mission is there? Do you know what a successful completion of that mission looks like? People keep using the word 'war'...so...who is our enemy and what are we doing to eliminate the enemy? Kind hard to END something if you dont have a plan.

 

[Mycroft]

To what end? The difference between this war and say...WW2 is that post WW2 the leadership of Germany and Japan were both committed to rebuilding their country. Do you get that same vibe from the Afghan president? Or from that matter their people? No...we ousted our enemy. The war is over. There isnt much left to accomplish there.

That's all it is to you? "...we ousted our enemy. The war is over."?

Tell me...what happens if we leave? Will the Taliban come roaring back, take over and now, when they REALLY have something to hate us for, plot and plan to do us harm like Al Qaeda did? Can we afford to let that happen? I don't think so.

However, I believe the best solution is for the Afghani people to reject the Taliban...and until they gather the courage, all of our efforts will be useless. It was much the same in Iraq, but Bush found a way to get the Iraqis to WANT to be free. For the most part, he was successful. Obama, so far, has not.

That's why I maintain we need to either get a new President who can get the job done...or quit trying.

 

[VanceMack]

That's all it is to you? "...we ousted our enemy. The war is over."?

Tell me...what happens if we leave? Will the Taliban come roaring back, take over and now, when they REALLY have something to hate us for, plot and plan to do us harm like Al Qaeda did? Can we afford to let that happen? I don't think so.

However, I believe the best solution is for the Afghani people to reject the Taliban...and until they gather the courage, all of our efforts will be useless. It was much the same in Iraq, but Bush found a way to get the Iraqis to WANT to be free. For the most part, he was successful. Obama, so far, has not.

That's why I maintain we need to either get a new President who can get the job done...or quit trying.

Do you understand that place? Ive spent 7 years of my life in the middle east and I dont pretend to 'get' them...but I know it isnt likely to change ever and if so it damn sure wont be from our doing. So...what will happen? Want me to be as blunt and direct and honest as I can possibly be? I couldnt give a **** what happens to them. They can keep cutting each others heads off. They can sit back and take another Taliban run at the government or they can stand up and maybe drag that backward ass country forward into the 17th century...at least that would be progress for them. Ive been there...done that. Nothing has changed. Ive got two sons in the military, both have been in harms way, and one will be heading back next year with the current schedule.

They will either go back to what they were or their citizens and government will stand up. Thats up to them. I dont care what they choose. We ousted the Taliban. We gave them the opportunity to succeed. We truly have done all there that we can POSSIBLY do. We should have been long gone from there.

 

[iliveonramen]

Followed the Bush 'surge' thinking WTF...it worked for Bush...it will work just as well in Afghanistan. Except of course the difference being in Iraq they actually went AFTER Al Qaida.

He followed the advice of the Joint Chiefs and military personel that advocated for a surge in Afghanistan. The soldiers from the surge were stationed in Helmund and Kandahar provinces.....which is exactly where the bulk of insurgents and fanatics were operating from.

What else. Oh...well...how about failing to have an actual mission strategy?

It's the same mission strategy as was in Iraq and the same in Afghanistan when Obama took over. Providing an environment where US troops can leave and not worry about some Islamist regime taking power.

How about failing to work with the Afghanistan government.

Yes...a legacy of the Bush Administration...an Afghanistan President that is corrupt and bad mouths us to one side then comes back to us with open hands for cash. Oh lets not forget...the government in Afghanistan is not trusted at all by it's own citizens..

Do YOU know what the mission is there? Do you know what a successful completion of that mission looks like? People keep using the word 'war'...so...who is our enemy and what are we doing to eliminate the enemy? Kind hard to END something if you dont have a plan.

It's a counterinsurgency...there's no such thing as destroying an army and taking their capital. That's why we shouldn't go into those ****ing 3rd world ****holes in the first place. When we do...we can't leave a situation that ends up looking just like the one when we went in. Otherwise we've spent thousands of American lives, 10's of thousands of Afghan lives, trillions of dollars to kill freaking a few 100's of people! What a ****ing waste!

Maybe from now on individuals tha actually send us into wars will have these exit strategies planned. So yes...Obama was handed once again a Republican **** up that Republicans are pointing and jeering because he hasn't fixed their problems again.

 

[Mycroft]

Do you understand that place? Ive spent 7 years of my life in the middle east and I dont pretend to 'get' them...but I know it isnt likely to change ever and if so it damn sure wont be from our doing. So...what will happen? Want me to be as blunt and direct and honest as I can possibly be? I couldnt give a **** what happens to them. They can keep cutting each others heads off. They can sit back and take another Taliban run at the government or they can stand up and maybe drag that backward ass country forward into the 17th century...at least that would be progress for them. Ive been there...done that. Nothing has changed. Ive got two sons in the military, both have been in harms way, and one will be heading back next year with the current schedule.

They will either go back to what they were or their citizens and government will stand up. Thats up to them. I dont care what they choose. We ousted the Taliban. We gave them the opportunity to succeed. We truly have done all there that we can POSSIBLY do. We should have been long gone from there.

Dude...take a chill pill.

You haven't read a word I've written, have you? You act as if I'm arguing to stay. I'm not. We have reasons for being there. We need to do the job. We are not. We need to boot the guy who won't do the job, get out or both. I want both.

You got a problem with that?

 

[VanceMack]

He followed the advice of the Joint Chiefs and military personel that advocated for a surge in Afghanistan. The soldiers from the surge were stationed in Helmund and Kandahar provinces.....which is exactly where the bulk of insurgents and fanatics were operating from.


It's the same mission strategy as was in Iraq and the same in Afghanistan when Obama took over. Providing an environment where US troops can leave and not worry about some Islamist regime taking power.



Yes...a legacy of the Bush Administration...an Afghanistan President that is corrupt and bad mouths us to one side then comes back to us with open hands for cash. Oh lets not forget...the government in Afghanistan is not trusted at all by it's own citizens..



It's a counterinsurgency...there's no such thing as destroying an army and taking their capital. That's why we shouldn't go into those ****ing 3rd world ****holes in the first place. When we do...we can't leave a situation that ends up looking just like the one when we went in. Otherwise we've spent thousands of American lives, 10's of thousands of Afghan lives, trillions of dollars to kill freaking a few 100's of people! What a ****ing waste!

Maybe from now on individuals tha actually send us into wars will have these exit strategies planned. So yes...Obama was handed once again a Republican **** up that Republicans are pointing and jeering because he hasn't fixed their problems again.

I got news for ya Jim...when you apply for the job, it comes with certain expectations. Obama applied for the job of Commander in Chief. He applied to finish the job in Afghanistan, not whine about how hard it was and certainly not vanish into the drapes because he doesnt know what the **** to do next. As I have said...Bush SHOULD have had a better plan. Hell...he should have had A plan and stuck to it. Thats on Bush. Obamas complete and dismal failure is on him...and solely on him. Of course...him we can excuse...because...oh yeah...he's a democrat.

So...for the record...you dont know what the **** to do either or what 'victory' looks like? And so...you think we should just stay there indefinitely? You know what will be a total waste? The NEXT lost life. And the next. And the next. And the...you get the picture.

 

[VanceMack]

Dude...take a chill pill.

You haven't read a word I've written, have you? You act as if I'm arguing to stay. I'm not. We have reasons for being there. We need to do the job. We are not. We need to boot the guy who won't do the job, get out or both. I want both.

You got a problem with that?

Dood...I'm so 'chill' my screen has ice crystals on it...

You asked..."That's all it is to you? "...we ousted our enemy. The war is over."? Tell me...what happens if we leave?"

Dont ask the question if you dont want the answer.

 

[Mycroft]

Dood...I'm so 'chill' my screen has ice crystals on it...

You asked..."That's all it is to you? "...we ousted our enemy. The war is over."? Tell me...what happens if we leave?"

Dont ask the question if you dont want the answer.

sigh...

Your angry rhetoric is blinding you to political, national security and international realities. That's fine. I understand.

Just like I understand the consequences for us...and the Afghani people...with this whole mess, I also understand the costs. But like I said...I'm not a cut-and-run type of person. I prefer to get the job done and if we can't get the job done...for whatever reason...it's time to do something about it.

You know what I want to do about it.

 

[RDS]

What about a corrupt puppet government with which to terrorize the heathens?

President Karzai and his inner circle is even more corrupt and they have derailed the american war strategy which hinged on building the administration into a credible alternative to the Taliban.

 

[ecofarm]

President Karzai and his inner circle is even more corrupt and they have derailed the american war strategy which hinged on building the administration into a credible alternative to the Taliban.

Corrupt democracy is not a credible alternative to the Taliban?

 

[RDS]

Corrupt democracy is not a credible alternative to the Taliban?

It is for sure a credible alternative to beheading.

 

[ecofarm]

It is for sure a credible alternative to beheading.

Is it a credible alternative to a terrorist regime that actively and openly trains for strikes against western civilians, treats women as animals, puts gays to death and acids girls for trying to learn how to read?

 

[RDS]

Is it a credible alternative to a terrorist regime that actively and openly trains for strikes against western civilians, treats women as animals, puts gays to death and acids girls for trying to learn how to read?

Lets see how it goes after 2014.

 

[ecofarm]

Lets see how it goes after 2014.

Well, just judging in general...

Totalitarian 10th century genocidal woman-hating gay-slaughtering fundie terrorists or corrupt democracy with a pretense of human rights?

 

[jet57]

Well, just judging in general...

Totalitarian 10th century genocidal woman-hating gay-slaughtering terrorists or corrupt democracy with a pretense of human rights?

Sounds good, but I think we know that it's never going to happen in Afghanistan. I'm for pulling out. But I'm also for Obama's mob style hits on the heads of these little groups. That's what works.

 

[ecofarm]

Sounds good, but I think we know that it's never going to happen in Afghanistan. I'm for pulling out. But I'm also for Obama's mob style hits on the heads of these little groups. That's what works.

I'll put you down for pro-mob and anti-demoracy, with a definate slant towards terrorist rule.