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Yes the middle class has been disappearing

Velvet Elvis

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Give Detroit to the lower class then. Let 'em do what they want with it, and let's see what their Utopia looks like in 10 years.
 

specklebang

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For a while there, I heard how bad things were. So this is really good news.

With the middle class moving up it should provide opportunity for the lower classes to fill the positions. I'm always impressed how this country recovers from everything and comes back again and again. This is in spite of, not because of, our politicians.

23 Skidoo!
 

Paschendale

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That is an impressive piece of propaganda. Cherry picked facts, parameters specifically chosen to exclude data points that ruin the conclusion, and inconsistent criteria.

The narrative of "don't question or oppose the financial system because you too can become rich" is dangerous and false.
 

radioman

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For a while there, I heard how bad things were. So this is really good news.

With the middle class moving up it should provide opportunity for the lower classes to fill the positions. I'm always impressed how this country recovers from everything and comes back again and again. This is in spite of, not because of, our politicians.

23 Skidoo!
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How old are you anyway?
Oh, yeah, good post.
 

Bonzai

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That is an impressive piece of propaganda. Cherry picked facts, parameters specifically chosen to exclude data points that ruin the conclusion, and inconsistent criteria.

The narrative of "don't question or oppose the financial system because you too can become rich" is dangerous and false.


Very true, but a lot of people have bought into it. I theorize this was done by the vanishing of the "sin" of greed. When I was growing up greed was a big nono, now it's a veritable virtue...................
 

Carjosse

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Is 75,000$ really upper class?
 

specklebang

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Well, I can't say I was there for "The Roaring Twenties" but I wish I could have been there. Before we got so serious and all.

I was heavily influenced by the film Thoroughly Modern Millie.

I showed up at the start of WW2.


-----------
How old are you anyway?
Oh, yeah, good post.
 

Captain Adverse

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Is 75,000$ really upper class?

NO! Upper class starts in the low-mid six figures and goes on up from there to the rich; filthy rich; rich who look down on the filthy rich; the wealthy; the extremely wealthy; and then the 100 or so owners of the planet.


$75,000 is middle-middle class. :)
 

radioman

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Well, I can't say I was there for "The Roaring Twenties" but I wish I could have been there. Before we got so serious and all.

I was heavily influenced by the film Thoroughly Modern Millie.

I showed up at the start of WW2.
-----------------------

That's not so old.
Heck, I'm a grandpa.
As for "Thoroughly Modern Millie"...I've never seen it, but Julie Andrews?
Forget about that "Mary Poppins" image, Julie was a knockout....ohhh, baby!!
 

blaxshep

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I'm always impressed how this country recovers from everything and comes back again and again. This is in spite of, not because of, our politicians.

Ain't that the truth. Maybe someday the liberals will figure that out.
 

haymarket

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That is an impressive piece of propaganda. Cherry picked facts, parameters specifically chosen to exclude data points that ruin the conclusion, and inconsistent criteria.

The narrative of "don't question or oppose the financial system because you too can become rich" is dangerous and false.

Yup - like UPPER INCOME being $75K and over. How many country clubs do you know will even let you change the toilet paper roll with that kind of annual income?

Upper Income indeed! :doh:roll:
 

TurtleDude

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Yup - like UPPER INCOME being $75K and over. How many country clubs do you know will even let you change the toilet paper roll with that kind of annual income?

Upper Income indeed! :doh:roll:

its funny, the left demonizes the uber wealthy yet their tax schemes see people making not much more than 75K as "the rich" when it comes to tax increases.

75K is middle class for sure. However 75 K in some areas will lead to a better standard of living than someone just barely in the top 2% in NYC of Pelosiland
 

Gimmesometruth

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its funny, the left demonizes the uber wealthy yet their tax schemes see people making not much more than 75K as "the rich" when it comes to tax increases.
Um, you mean like the repeal of the Bush cuts on those making $250K?

75K is middle class for sure. However 75 K in some areas will lead to a better standard of living than someone just barely in the top 2% in NYC of Pelosiland
NYC? What? Pelosi is a rep from CA, SF specifically.
 

Sisyphus

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This ignores the fact that we have very limited class-migration in the US. The children of the top 10% in America have an over 70% likelihood of being in the top 10% themselves. So children of the bottom 90%, are getting less than 3 out of every 10 jobs that put them in the top 10%.

In other words, we're 70% of the way to a permanent class system.
 

LowDown

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This ignores the fact that we have very limited class-migration in the US. The children of the top 10% in America have an over 70% likelihood of being in the top 10% themselves. So children of the bottom 90%, are getting less than 3 out of every 10 jobs that put them in the top 10%.

In other words, we're 70% of the way to a permanent class system.

So, in a perfect society none of the children born into the top 10% could retain that status?

Over all, about half of children in the US born into the lower sextile of wage earners retain the economic status of the parents, which means that over half of them moved to a higher sextile and were replaced by people who fell down from higher sextiles. That hardly sounds like a permanent class system.

Social conditions in the lowest sextile have been deteriorating. Most of them are born to single mothers now, and those children invariably are raised in poverty and face disadvantages greater than children raised in 2 parent households. Such people find it very difficult to lift themselves out of poverty and their relative numbers are increasing.
 

Sisyphus

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So, in a perfect society none of the children born into the top 10% could retain that status?

Over all, about half of children in the US born into the lower sextile of wage earners retain the economic status of the parents, which means that over half of them moved to a higher sextile and were replaced by people who fell down from higher sextiles. That hardly sounds like a permanent class system.

Social conditions in the lowest sextile have been deteriorating. Most of them are born to single mothers now, and those children invariably are raised in poverty and face disadvantages greater than children raised in 2 parent households. Such people find it very difficult to lift themselves out of poverty and their relative numbers are increasing.

In a society where we had equality of opportunity (not equal; just same opportunity) the Children of the top 10% would have a 10% chance of themselves being in the top 10%, and not a 70%+ chance.
 
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Sisyphus

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So, in a perfect society none of the children born into the top 10% could retain that status?

Over all, about half of children in the US born into the lower sextile of wage earners retain the economic status of the parents, which means that over half of them moved to a higher sextile and were replaced by people who fell down from higher sextiles. That hardly sounds like a permanent class system.

Social conditions in the lowest sextile have been deteriorating. Most of them are born to single mothers now, and those children invariably are raised in poverty and face disadvantages greater than children raised in 2 parent households. Such people find it very difficult to lift themselves out of poverty and their relative numbers are increasing.

It can and does, since class is lower, middle and upper, and we're approaching a permanent upper class and a lower and middle class with a very low probability of moving to the upper class.
 

LowDown

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This ignores the fact that we have very limited class-migration in the US. The children of the top 10% in America have an over 70% likelihood of being in the top 10% themselves. So children of the bottom 90%, are getting less than 3 out of every 10 jobs that put them in the top 10%.

In other words, we're 70% of the way to a permanent class system.

Also, in a country like Denmark, in which social mobility is higher, the advantage of being in a higher socioeconomic class is less. Most middle class Danes can't afford to buy a house, and their homes are missing many of the amenities familiar to middle class Americans. Not until one gets to the upper 20% of Danish earners does one find a life style similar to that of the American middle class. This is with government services included in the comparison.

Average individual consumption is 33% less in Denmark compared to America.
 

Sisyphus

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Also, in a country like Denmark, in which social mobility is higher, the advantage of being in a higher socioeconomic class is less. Most middle class Danes can't afford to buy a house, and their homes are missing many of the amenities familiar to middle class Americans. Not until one gets to the upper 20% of Danish earners does one find a life style similar to that of the American middle class. This is with government services included in the comparison.

Average individual consumption is 33% less in Denmark compared to America.

Nordic Model countries have some of the least inequality on the planet, and robust middle classes.
 

LowDown

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It can and does, since class is lower, middle and upper, and we're approaching a permanent upper class and a lower and middle class with a very low probability of moving to the upper class.

It depends on how "upper class" is defined. If it refers to the top 10% of wage earners then by your own figures 30% of people born to it fall down to the middle class to be replaced by people who move up from lower classes. I'm puzzled by assertions that this represents low social class mobility because it seems pretty high to me. Also, as the economy picks up this mobility will rise.

If we are talking about an upper class defined by an Ivy League Education, careers in the upper levels of business, politics and academics, friends and connections with all the same interests in stuff like sailing, polo,etc., and a residence in the Hamptons and similar places, then we are probably talking about a group that is much more difficult to get into by design, almost exclusively hereditary I would guess. A household income of $111,000 will get you into the top 10% but no way will it get you into that upper class.
 

Mach

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The narrative of "don't question or oppose the financial system because you too can become rich" is dangerous and false.
How is the fact that we have one of the most economic free, and economically prosperous economies in all of human history both false and dangerous? Outrageous. I must assume you believe that it's better to tell people they CANNOT reach for the stars and achieve them in the U.S. And that OMG if they actually DID achieve the economic success that THEY want, that you'd believe that was dangerous!?!
 

Sisyphus

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It depends on how "upper class" is defined. If it refers to the top 10% of wage earners then by your own figures 30% of people born to it fall down to the middle class to be replaced by people who move up from lower classes. I'm puzzled by assertions that this represents low social class mobility because it seems pretty high to me. Also, as the economy picks up this mobility will rise.

If we are talking about an upper class defined by an Ivy League Education, careers in the upper levels of business, politics and academics, friends and connections with all the same interests in stuff like sailing, polo,etc., and a residence in the Hamptons and similar places, then we are probably talking about a group that is much more difficult to get into by design, almost exclusively hereditary I would guess. A household income of $111,000 will get you into the top 10% but no way will it get you into that upper class.

Not today, since it was $118,200 in 2006; when I had personal income of $165 K and with the GF, right about $250 K household ... top 1.5%. But my dad got a Masters in Computer Science from Stanford, back before most knew what a computer was, fast-tracking him to VP at Boeing; and enabling him to snag my Mom, a blue blood with generational wealth, from generations back.

So it helps to choose your parents well, it seems, especially if something that due to the law of large numbers would be a 10% likelihood, but in fact is an over 70% likelihood. That's a remarkable skew that shows beyond doubt that equality of opportunity in America is largely a myth.
 

Paschendale

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How is the fact that we have one of the most economic free, and economically prosperous economies in all of human history both false and dangerous? Outrageous. I must assume you believe that it's better to tell people they CANNOT reach for the stars and achieve them in the U.S. And that OMG if they actually DID achieve the economic success that THEY want, that you'd believe that was dangerous!?!

No, I have a problem with telling people that the stars are close while simultaneously yanking them farther and farther away.
 
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