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Yes the middle class has been disappearing

So, in a perfect society none of the children born into the top 10% could retain that status?

Over all, about half of children in the US born into the lower sextile of wage earners retain the economic status of the parents, which means that over half of them moved to a higher sextile and were replaced by people who fell down from higher sextiles. That hardly sounds like a permanent class system.

Social conditions in the lowest sextile have been deteriorating. Most of them are born to single mothers now, and those children invariably are raised in poverty and face disadvantages greater than children raised in 2 parent households. Such people find it very difficult to lift themselves out of poverty and their relative numbers are increasing.
But that is not describing the middle class, the US is becoming LESS economic mobile, meaning that that those in the middle have a greater chance of earning less than their parent....ie MORE downward mobility.
 
It depends on how "upper class" is defined. If it refers to the top 10% of wage earners then by your own figures 30% of people born to it fall down to the middle class to be replaced by people who move up from lower classes. I'm puzzled by assertions that this represents low social class mobility because it seems pretty high to me. Also, as the economy picks up this mobility will rise.

If we are talking about an upper class defined by an Ivy League Education, careers in the upper levels of business, politics and academics, friends and connections with all the same interests in stuff like sailing, polo,etc., and a residence in the Hamptons and similar places, then we are probably talking about a group that is much more difficult to get into by design, almost exclusively hereditary I would guess. A household income of $111,000 will get you into the top 10% but no way will it get you into that upper class.
You didn't prove a point, you quibbled over terms.
 
In a society where we had equality of opportunity (not equal; just same opportunity) the Children of the top 10% would have a 10% chance of themselves being in the top 10%, and not a 70%+ chance.

Only in a vacuum.

People have different interests, work ethnic, etc. in the real world.

We're not talking about stock option billionaires here but families pulling in $75K.
 
But that is not describing the middle class, the US is becoming LESS economic mobile, meaning that that those in the middle have a greater chance of earning less than their parent....ie MORE downward mobility.

The lower class may have lost interest in economic mobility but the opportunity has never been greater.

It's easy to blame the wealthy for all your problems but any real discussion on wealth distribution that is more than just political hackery has to begin with the reality that in today's non-union, private sector job world "who's your daddy?" is far less important than "what business school did you go to? It's a very minimal temporal investment to go from stocking shelves to being an accountant and the cost is often negligible for the poor but the poor seem to have lost interest in making that leap.
 
The lower class may have lost interest in economic mobility but the opportunity has never been greater.
The opportunities are FEWER today due to the recession and its aftermath.

It's easy to blame the wealthy for all your problems but any real discussion on wealth distribution that is more than just political hackery has to begin with the reality that in today's business world "who's your daddy?" is far less important than "what business school did you go to?
Except that who your daddy is often determines which business school you will attend.



It's a very minimal temporal investment to go from stocking shelves to being an accountant and the cost is often negligible for the poor but the poor seem to have lost interest in making that leap.


The American Dream isn't dead. It's just moved to Denmark.

Now, we like to think of ourselves as a classless society, but it isn't true today. As the Brookings Institution has pointed out, America has turned into a place Horatio Alger would scarcely recognize: we have more inequality and less mobility than once-stratified Europe, particularly the Nordic countries. It's what outgoing Council of Economic Advisers chief Alan Krueger has dubbed the "Great Gatsby Curve" -- the more inequality there is, the less mobility there is. As Tim Noah put it, it's harder to climb our social ladder when the rungs are further apart.

And it's getting worse.

Inequality is breeding more inequality. It's a story about paychecks, marriage, and homework. Now, it's not entirely clear why the top 1 percent have pulled so far away from everyone else, but there's a long list of suspects. Technology has let winners take, if not all, at least most, in fields like music; deregulation has set Wall Street free to make big bonuses off big bets (and leave taxpayers with the bill when they go bad); globalization and the decline of unions have left labor with far less leverage and share of income; and falling top-end tax rates have exacerbated it all. But high-earners aren't just earning more today; they're also marrying each other more. It's what economists romantically call "assortative mating" -- and Christine Schwartz, a professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin, estimates inequality would be 25 to 30 percent lower if not for it.

Marriage is widening inequality today, and keeping it wide tomorrow. Well-off couples get married more, stay together more, read to their children more, and otherwise have more time and money to spend on their children's education. As the New York Times points out, economists Richard Murname and Greg Duncan have found that high-income couples have poured resources into the educational arms race at a prodigious pace the past generation. For one, the amount of time college-educated parents spend with their kids has grown at double the rate of others since 1975; for another, high-income households invested 150 percent more in "enrichment activities" for their kids from 1972 to 2006, compared to a 57 percent increase for low-income households.

It's paying off. As Jonathan Cohn of The New Republic points out, early cognitive development has long-lasting consequences that can leave less-lucky children behind from the moment they start school -- and keep them there. But even when kids from low-income households do outperform those from high-income households, it's far from a guarantee that they'll end up earning more as an adult. Indeed, Matt Bruenig highlights the chart below from the Pew Economic Mobility Project that shows that rich kids without a college degree are 2.5 times more likely to end up rich than poor kids who do graduate from college.


RIP, American Dream? Why It's So Hard for the Poor to Get Ahead Today - Matthew O'Brien - The Atlantic
 
Only in a vacuum.

People have different interests, work ethnic, etc. in the real world.

We're not talking about stock option billionaires here but families pulling in $75K.

$75 K is middle class and not top 10%. If it was mere human nature or choice/behavior, the law of large numbers would still bring the likelihood of anyone being in the top 10% to ... 10%, or darn near (with equality of opportunity, which the 70% likelihood for Children of the Top 10% proves is simply not the way it is, in America.)
 
$75 K is middle class and not top 10%. If it was mere human nature or choice/behavior, the law of large numbers would still bring the likelihood of anyone being in the top 10% to ... 10%, or darn near (with equality of opportunity, which the 70% likelihood for Children of the Top 10% proves is simply not the way it is, in America.)

I don't know what the exact figure is but it has to be in the ballpark of $75K/year.

The point is we're not talking about stock option billionaires here. The overwhelming majority of the top 10% of earners are middle class households looking to make ends meet and have no ability to make any financial guarantees to their children. Your household income of $250K/year puts you well past the top 10% line but, unless your blue blood mother left you a very hefty inheritance, you're not even in the ballpark of being able to donate enough to Harvard to ensure your son is accepted.

The law of large numbers would only bring the likelihood of anyone being in the top 10% to 10% if all else were equal, which I don't think is the case. Much of what we do is shaped by what those around us do. The Kennedy's can afford to do anything but they keep ending up in politics for, what I believe is, the same reasons we have families of actors, athletes, fire fighters, police officers, teachers, etc.

Sasha and Malia Obama have the money, name recognition, and connections to do anything but the smart money is that they will go into politics. We won't know what they'll do for decades but I'll gladly take your money if you want to bet me otherwise.
 
its funny, the left demonizes the uber wealthy yet their tax schemes see people making not much more than 75K as "the rich" when it comes to tax increases.

75K is middle class for sure. However 75 K in some areas will lead to a better standard of living than someone just barely in the top 2% in NYC of Pelosiland

I love it when conservatives just make stuff up and hope nobody notices.

Obama tried to get a tax increase on those who make $1M -- conservatives in the House blocked it.

Now, back to your regularly schedule discredited rightwing memes.
 
I don't know what the exact figure is but it has to be in the ballpark of $75K/year.

The point is we're not talking about stock option billionaires here. The overwhelming majority of the top 10% of earners are middle class households looking to make ends meet and have no ability to make any financial guarantees to their children. Your household income of $250K/year puts you well past the top 10% line but, unless your blue blood mother left you a very hefty inheritance, you're not even in the ballpark of being able to donate enough to Harvard to ensure your son is accepted.

The law of large numbers would only bring the likelihood of anyone being in the top 10% to 10% if all else were equal, which I don't think is the case. Much of what we do is shaped by what those around us do. The Kennedy's can afford to do anything but they keep ending up in politics for, what I believe is, the same reasons we have families of actors, athletes, fire fighters, police officers, teachers, etc.

Sasha and Malia Obama have the money, name recognition, and connections to do anything but the smart money is that they will go into politics. We won't know what they'll do for decades but I'll gladly take your money if you want to bet me otherwise.

It was $75 K for an individual or $118 K for a household (families), in 2006. So families making probably $130 K, in 2013 Dollar, are at the very low end of the top 10%. A family making $75 K, today, is not too far above the median household income. Ergo, indeed very middle class.
 
It was $75 K for an individual or $118 K for a household (families), in 2006. So families making probably $130 K, in 2013 Dollar, are at the very low end of the top 10%. A family making $75 K, today, is not too far above the median household income. Ergo, indeed very middle class.

Median household income is approximately $48K ...
 
Median household income is approximately $48K ...

North of it, since in 2009, when it dipped due to the GR, it was $49777. Probably in the low $50s, and thus $75 K ain't really to far above it. I could not get by on $75, in Kirkland, which was $78,980 median income in 2009.
 
North of it, since in 2009, when it dipped due to the GR, it was $49777. Probably in the low $50s, and thus $75 K ain't really to far above it. I could not get by on $75, in Kirkland, which was $78,980 median income in 2009.

I would suggest Google. Median income has fallen since 2008...
 
:lol: The numbers area a bit closer to what I suggested rather than your figures, and you did not provide comparative figures to 2008...

I said low 50s. What was it in 2011? (answer: low 50s and not approx. $48 K)
 
I said low 50s. What was it in 2011? (answer: low 50s and not approx. $48 K)

BTW, in 2008, a good year for median income thanks to a ~40% increase in the minimum wage, it was $50,122; then by 2011, went up slightly to $51,413
 
The post to which I responded had it in the 70's...

Then reading comprehension is not your core competency. I said $75 K is not greatly above the median income (household) in the US.
 
Then reading comprehension is not your core competency. I said $75 K is not greatly above the median income (household) in the US.

Core competencies and your posts are sometimes not correlated... :mrgreen:
 
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