Wisconsin:Actions have consequences

[GhostlyJoe]

None, I'm just repeating anti-union hatred and propaganda like a parrot.

Obviously, a person with no incentive to do better, and work harder is really the more likely to succeed then one who is measured by the success of their students in all aspects of learning. Teachers Unions encourage Tenure, encourage time worked, and discourage merit based systems because, as we've seen over the past 30 years in education levels this is the best way to move forward. :roll:

It was an honest question, Mr. V. The nature of the merit system would determine my support for it. If it's based on supervisory discretion, then it raises a set of issues, such as the incredible leverage it gives to administrators. If it's based on test scores and grade point average, than it creates a whole bunch of perverse incentives.

I'm curious as to what specific paramaters are proposed under merit-based pay schemes.

 

[haymarket]

Teachers paid on merit of results not tenure and time tend to have the incentive to actually teach.

and you know this how exactly?

 

[apdst]

you honestly believe that the actions taken to strip workers of their role in self determinism is gonna play well? you think this blatant attack on workers in the interest of business is not gonna influence other workers?

geo.

26% of the workers in Wisconsin are union members. How well is going to go over, when the government tells the other 74% that their taxes have to go up, to support the bennies of that 26%?

 

[apdst]

and you know this how exactly?

Based on the piss poor quality of teachers we currently have in the school systems. If a person can't be fired, then there will be little, or no motivation to meet a higher standard.

 

[Geo Patric]

these were public unions. the employer we were helping was ourselves.

the attack is on unions, will, the attack in on workers to benefit business... as is clear from the post i made earlier and NONE of the unthinking, union busting lap dogs wants to acknowledge. which i can understand, freeing 117 million dollars to business while taking millions from workers... i would be ashamed of that too.

and perhaps you could show me how disenfranchising workers makes for better work. in any event, it is not the change in status between worker and management, it is the stripping of previously upon agreed wages and benefits and negating the rights to workers to negotiate their own work conditions.

that is the shame you are supporting.

geo.

 

[Geo Patric]

26% of the workers in Wisconsin are union members. How well is going to go over, when the government tells the other 74% that their taxes have to go up, to support the bennies of that 26%?

and,... where did you get YOUR info?

Union members accounted for 11.9 percent of employed wage and salary workers, down from 12.3 percent a year earlier. In 1983, the first year for which comparable national union data were available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent.[/quote
- BLS - UNION MEMBERSHIP IN WISCONSIN - 2010 (02.28.11)

dunno if you are paying attention to the news, but the labor movement in general is in an uproar over this attack on workers.

What began . . . as a Republican effort in one small U.S. state to balance the budget has turned into a confrontation with unions that could be the biggest since then President Ronald Reagan fired striking air traffic controllers nearly 30 years ago.

the rally at the Wisconsin Capitol on Saturday brought out thousands of union workers not directly affected by the bill, including the state's firefighters, exempted along with police from the Republican proposal. Dozens of private sector unions were represented as well at the event.

they are not stupid. this is an attack on american workers by politicians sucking up to business and gulling the ignorant to support it by pretending to save them tax dollars. it won't.

geo.

 

[dontworrybehappy]

you are not very good at math. are you? because that does not even begin to add up.

geo.

That's because the subject is social studies, not math. You cannot hold taxpayers feet to the fire via unions paid for by taxpayers. No matter how deep you shove those earplugs in because you don't want to hear it. I've been proven right by the supreme court. You gonna continue to argue with me?

 

[Geo Patric]

I've been proven right by the supreme court.

the reference to math was metaphorical. in terms of rhetoric i might better have indicated that the idea that 'state workers are paid by taxes' and 'they have to right to collective bargaining' amounts to a non-sequitor, one thing does not logically follow the other... colloquially... they do not add up.

so... it cannot be right - it makes no sense. and, what Supreme Court decision are you referring to?

geo

 

[haymarket]

That's because the subject is social studies, not math. You cannot hold taxpayers feet to the fire via unions paid for by taxpayers. No matter how deep you shove those earplugs in because you don't want to hear it. I've been proven right by the supreme court. You gonna continue to argue with me?

Taxpayers do not pay for unions any more than they pay for anything else the worker uses their earned money for. You are relying on a false premise.

 

[cpwill]

how?.........

low income families (especially racial minorities) are those who most desperately seek government aid in avoiding failing school systems. teachers unions are threatened by the ability of parents to exercise choice over their employment, and pour massive amounts of resources into opposing those who need most the freedom to escape gaining the ability to do so. the poor are more dependent on receiving a good public education in order to improve their station, yet teachers unions refuse to have teachers hired/fired based on merit, and prefer tenure and time instead. teaching has become a good, safe, profession for our less intelligent college graduates to pursue, cocooned from ever having to face the Darwinian pressures of the marketplace, and protected by their unions from losing their jobs over something so slight as a less-than-fully-competent performance. The result is that our most vulnerable population who needs education the most receives it the least.

 

[cpwill]

the attack is on unions, will, the attack in on workers to benefit business... as is clear from the post i made earlier and NONE of the unthinking, union busting lap dogs wants to acknowledge. which i can understand, freeing 117 million dollars to business while taking millions from workers... i would be ashamed of that too.

and perhaps you could show me how disenfranchising workers makes for better work. in any event, it is not the change in status between worker and management, it is the stripping of previously upon agreed wages and benefits and negating the rights to workers to negotiate their own work conditions.

that is the shame you are supporting.

geo.

i read that three times searching for something that could be considered an actual response to my post.

 

[Ockham]

If Democrats win back control of the legislature, or part of it, it sure will have an effect. And Walker isn't immune to recall. He's eligible in about six months.

Call me when Walkers recalled... until then it's just noise.

 

[Renae]

you can only teach those who are willing to learn...have you forgotten what it was like to be a student in a classroom? some kids were there to learn, and some were there to screw off....you want better results with the education system? it helps when the parents actually give a crap about their kids education, and when they particiapate in their kid's education...trying to screw over the teacher's union will not change things, this is only an excuse to demonize the union.

I remember what it was like. You didn't want to behave, you got paddled. You're just making excuse to maintain the failed monopoly of the Teachers Unions for pure ideological reasons. I believe in merit based systems that promote competition and produces results, you're a blind ideologue.

 

[phattonez]

you can only teach those who are willing to learn...have you forgotten what it was like to be a student in a classroom? some kids were there to learn, and some were there to screw off....you want better results with the education system? it helps when the parents actually give a crap about their kids education, and when they particiapate in their kid's education...trying to screw over the teacher's union will not change things, this is only an excuse to demonize the union.

Compulsory education is a waste of time. Students learn discipline more than anything else. Frankly, I don't recall learning anything really valuable until college. Everything before then I could have learned from my parents, the library, and Wikipedia.

 

[Renae]

It was an honest question, Mr. V. The nature of the merit system would determine my support for it. If it's based on supervisory discretion, then it raises a set of issues, such as the incredible leverage it gives to administrators. If it's based on test scores and grade point average, than it creates a whole bunch of perverse incentives.

I'm curious as to what specific paramaters are proposed under merit-based pay schemes.

Merit based competition exists in pretty much any private enterprise(that isn't unionized), they manage to work just fine. You only have students success as a measurements, and your "fear of perverse incentives" is a weak excuse for not supporting merit based teaching. A teacher who has been working for three years today, regardless of results loses to the teacher with 15 years, even if the 15 year tenured teacher sucks.


EVERYONE knows this. Let's take a currently common theme:
School Blue is forced to let 10% of it's teachers go.

That three year teacher might be the best damned teacher you've ever seen, but the current system... gone. That 15 year teacher who doesn't teach ****? Stays on.

Who is being served by this? The Union.

 

[Renae]

and you know this how exactly?

Do you live in reality? ANY situation where you are not held to a standard produces subpar results. It's called human nature. Competition breeds success.

 

[randel]

low income families (especially racial minorities) are those who most desperately seek government aid in avoiding failing school systems. teachers unions are threatened by the ability of parents to exercise choice over their employment, and pour massive amounts of resources into opposing those who need most the freedom to escape gaining the ability to do so. the poor are more dependent on receiving a good public education in order to improve their station, yet teachers unions refuse to have teachers hired/fired based on merit, and prefer tenure and time instead. teaching has become a good, safe, profession for our less intelligent college graduates to pursue, cocooned from ever having to face the Darwinian pressures of the marketplace, and protected by their unions from losing their jobs over something so slight as a less-than-fully-competent performance. The result is that our most vulnerable population who needs education the most receives it the least.

what a load of hooey...busting the union accomplishes nothing, until parents get involved with their children's education, and hold their kids accountable, their will be little if any improvements made.... educating our children is a job for our 'less intelligent college grads' eh? then why have public schools, or private ones for that matter? if all they attract is our 'less educated college grads'? why not just everyone go back to home schooling? i'm sure that would work well, being that alot of families have to have two bread winners to make ends meet. hell cp, you could be rid of two 'problems' that way, be rid of the unions, and be rid of a 'failing' education system.:roll:

 

[phattonez]

what a load of hooey...busting the union accomplishes nothing, until parents get involved with their children's education, and hold their kids accountable, their will be little if any improvements made.... educating our children is a job for our 'less intelligent college grads' eh? then why have public schools, or private ones for that matter? if all they attract is our 'less educated college grads'? why not just everyone go back to home schooling? i'm sure that would work well, being that alot of families have to have two bread winners to make ends meet. hell cp, you could be rid of two 'problems' that way, be rid of the unions, and be rid of a 'failing' education system.:roll:

Home schooling is loads better than public schools. At least then kids would learn something useful instead of just being disciplined all day.

 

[Deuce]

Home schooling is loads better than public schools. At least then kids would learn something useful instead of just being disciplined all day.

Yes, they'll learn things like "Intelligent Design is a theory just like Evolution!"

 

[Sgt Meowenstein]

Call me when Walkers recalled... until then it's just noise.

Hey, remember this post?

Meh... they've been doing that politically for a long time. Let's say a few get recalled... so what? It won't change a damn thing. Walkers there for 4 years...

You're the one claiming that Walker will be there for four years. I simply pointed out that he is eligible for recall in about 6 months. Therefore, there's no guarantee that he'll be there for 4 years. ANd again, a few recalled Republicans could have a significant effect on WI politics.

 

[phattonez]

Yes, they'll learn things like "Intelligent Design is a theory just like Evolution!"

What are they learning of use from school? How to stand in line? How not to speak unless spoken to? Uniform theories of history that ignore alternate interpretations? Ignorance of the classics? Stop me when I've actually found something good.

 

[Psychoclown]

The right seems to forget that actions have consequences, and eventually one's dastardly deeds reach out and bite you on the butt. So this article is good Karma to those that have watched the despicable actions of republicans over the last year. Bad righty, what's-ya-going-do when they come for you??:lamo My guess is republicans will cancel recalls & remove that language from state legislation. The rich got to eat!!

WASHINGTON -- The labor-backed progressive group We Are Wisconsin has launched its first television ad of the upcoming recall elections, targeting state Sen. Sheila Harsdorf (R-River Falls).

Harsdorf is one of six Republican state senators facing recall in August, all of whom voted in March for the measure stripping public employees of most of their collective bargaining rights. Three Democrats also have recall elections this summer.

The first We Are Wisconsin ad is supporting Harsdorf's main Democratic challenger Shelly Moore, a public school teacher and active member of the Wisconsin Education Association Council union.

The ad goes after Harsdorf's record on education, stating she "voted for Gov. Walker's budget that cut education by nearly $800 million, yet ... voted for hundreds of millions in tax breaks for corporations and the super-rich."

Wisconsin Labor-Backed Group Launches First TV Ad In Recall Elections

What exactly are the consequences you're ranting about? That enacting policies that are not universally agreed upon will cause people who disagree with those policies to run against you? I think the right was aware of that political fact. In fact, I'm pretty sure anyone with an IQ over 50 is aware of that fact.

 

[cpwill]

what a load of hooey...busting the union accomplishes nothing, until parents get involved with their children's education,

this is incorrect. our parents who make less money, have to work multiple jobs, or are in two-income households due to the low income from each are more dependent than other families on public education. they pay for that public education (we all do). Parents should absolutely be involved - but you don't get to blame them for the utter lack of education their kids are "receiving". They provided a solution and it's called the public education system.

furthermore, it's worth noting that poor parents (probably because their students go to the worst schools) poll most heavily in favor of school vouchers. these are parents who wish to be involved through the mechanism of seeking, selecting, and placing their children in better learning environments; who are shut down by the teachers unions.

educating our children is a job for our 'less intelligent college grads' eh?

no, but it has become so thanks to the fact that teachers are not held to any standards and are protected from any competition. It's a nice, safe, job field for underperformers to go to and continue to underperform secure in the knowledge that they will never be held to account. Many in the military are the same way - guys stay in because they are afraid to get out - and once you hit SNCO you are virtually guaranteed retirement. Were we to allow wages and employment to follow achievement, potential wages for teachers would rapidly rise high enough to attract higher-performers.

 

[cpwill]

Yes, they'll learn things like "Intelligent Design is a theory just like Evolution!"

For the tenth year in a row the composite score on the 2006 ACT college entrance exam for home educated students was higher than the national average.

Homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects.



isn't it interesting how all those stupid, gun and sky-god clinging, uneducated, backwards, rednecks are still able to better teach their kids than public sector unions?

 

[cpwill]

40% of Chicago Public School Teachers send their own kids to private schools

In Philadelphia, 44 percent of the teachers put their children in private schools; in Cincinnati, 41 percent; Chicago, 39 percent; Rochester, N.Y., 38 percent. The same trends showed up in the San Francisco-Oakland area, where 34 percent of public school teachers chose private schools for their children; 33 percent in New York City and New Jersey suburbs; and 29 percent in Milwaukee and New Orleans.

Nationwide, public school teachers are almost twice as likely as other parents to choose private schools for their own children.


huh.... I wonder what they know that we don't?

:mrgreen: favorite part of that last piece:

...Michael Pons, spokesman for the National Education Association, the 2.7-million-member public school union, declined a request for comment on the study’s findings. The American Federation of Teachers also declined to comment...​

:lamo