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Why the Shutdown is the Mostly the Democrats' Fault

Xyce

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Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.
 

beefheart

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Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

But....Individual 1 said he would take responsibility.

What is right is not to build a stupid assed wall.
 

Xyce

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But....Individual 1 said he would take responsibility.

What is right is not to build a stupid assed wall.

If I take responsibility for the next meteorite that crashes into the earth, it is not, in fact, my fault.

Trump said that because he operates without a filter. Politically, it was dumb on his part to say that; I agree. But, technically speaking, with regard to how our constitutional mechanism actually works, the responsibility is both the fault of the legislative and executive branch. But I argue that the fault is more of the Democrats, because they are being highly unreasonable.
 

Captain Adverse

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But....Individual 1 said he would take responsibility.

What is right is not to build a stupid assed wall.

What is "right" is passing and then enforcing stricter immigration laws, banning all amnesties for immigration law-breakers, deporting anyone who enters the country illegally after a simple proof of legal entry hearing; jailing and then deporting repeat offenders...and ending a major problem by properly defining birthright citizenship as limited to children of citizens and LEGAL residents.

Then we would not need a wall because simple, just, and fair enforcement across the board would deter people from trying to come here illegally knowing it would be a waste of time and resources.
 

Xyce

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Please, see my reply to beefheart. I've gone over this. Just because Trump claimed sole ownership of the shutdown, it does not mean he is solely responsible for this shutdown, nor does it mean he is more responsible for the shutdown. It just means he operates without a filter, which is well known.
 

Xyce

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What is "right" is passing and then enforcing stricter immigration laws, banning all amnesties for immigration law-breakers, deporting anyone who enters the country illegally after a simple proof of legal entry hearing; jailing and then deporting repeat offenders...and ending a major problem by properly defining birthright citizenship as limited to children of citizens and LEGAL residents.

Then we would not need a wall because simple, just, and fair enforcement across the board would deter people from trying to come here illegally knowing it would be a waste of time and resources.

Making our laws more draconian alone would not be a necessary preventive to the waves of illegals crossing our border on a yearly basis, my friend. It might discourage some, but I think most, especially if they are simply desperate enough, will take their chances, even if it means jail time.

What I love about liberals is they love these countries that these people are fleeing from, and they will compare America poorly to them. Females, both women and children, who illegally cross the border have a good chance of being raped during the travel, and yet they take that chance, because they are so desperate to get out of the country from which they are escaping.
 

Superfly

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Please, see my reply to beefheart. I've gone over this. Just because Trump claimed sole ownership of the shutdown, it does not mean he is solely responsible for this shutdown, nor does it mean he is more responsible for the shutdown. It just means he operates without a filter, which is well known.

 

iguanaman

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Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

This is Trump shutdown, he orchestrated it from the start and from the start the Dems told him they would not negotiate while the govt. is shut down. He STILL shut it down. When a politician wants something in America they get the votes they need or they lose and try again some other day. What the don't do is take hostages and hole up in the Whitehouse. We don't negotiate with terrorists who take hostages even if he is President. There is a very good reason too. Giving in to Trump would only encourage more of the same. The Senate needs to take a vote on the House bill and get more than 66 votes. Like that, the hostages will be rescued and Trump would learn a valuable lesson about how our Govt. works.
 
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Felis Leo

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But....Individual 1 said he would take responsibility.

What is right is not to build a stupid assed wall.

Three quick questions, if I may, beefheart: First, and leaving aside that Trump wants it, why is it stupid in your opinion? Second, do you believe that those border patrol agents and their representatives who are actually tasked with guarding the border and who have publicly come out in favor of building a wall to staunch illegal crossings stupid, dishonest or ignorant? Finally, if you believe these barriers are ineffective, should we take down the walls, fences and barriers that already exist on the U.S.-Mexican border (or at the very least stop paying to maintain them)?
 
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Amelia

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Trump needs to come up with a clear plan. He is not clear at all about what his goals are and how he plans to achieve them. Five billion dollars is both (a) very little relative to how much a wall on the southern border will ultimately cost and (b) a great deal to hand out without confidence that it will be used well. Also, a wall is just one part of an effective immigration and security plan. The costs for all parts need to be laid out before we start handing money out piecemeal for a small portion of a physical barrier on the southern border.

It's Trump's fault until he comes up with a plan.

Remember that this is money which he promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pony up. It was already his responsibility to have a coherent plan before demanding that Congress fund it, and it is doubly important since he needs to make the case for requesting money which he promised he wouldn't request.


It would be irresponsible of Congress to hand over money without having both clear details and a big picture to use for determining how much money to appropriate.
 

Superfly

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OK. Clearly, you're not being productive in this conversation. Way to accurately represent liberals, my friend.

I'm not representing the liberals. I'm representing your president, since you seem to forget that this is all on him. He was offered a plan to open up the government, and he refused. Not only did he refuse, he said that this could go on for months, or even years.

But nice try, trying to blame this on the Democrats. :lol: Pretty predictable.

Now, for your viewing enjoyment, I will remind you yet again whose problem this falls back on:

 

Xyce

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This is Trump shutdown he orchestrated it from the start and from the start the Dems told him they would not negotiate while the govt. is shut down. He STILL shut it down. When a politician wants something in America they get the votes they need or they lose and try again some other day. What the don't do is take hostages and hole up in the Whitehouse. We don't negotiate with terrorists who take hostages even if he is President. There is a very good reason too. Giving in to Trump would only encourage more of the same.

Based on the fact that talks of impeachment are getting louder and louder on the Democrats side of the chamber, I don't think the Democrats would reasonably negotiate on border wall funding, especially since it is antithetical to the growing liberal faction of their party that swim in the currents of intersectionality. It's pretty difficult to imagine the Democrats effectively negotiating border wall funding with Trump while, at the same time, introducing articles of impeachment. Moreover, let's be honest, the Democrats don't want a wall across our Southern border. Those are future Democrats that are running across. As I've mentioned in my first post, if our country was aligned with Cuba along our Southern border, that wall would have been up 30 years ago.
 

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Three quick questions, if I may, beefheart: First, and leaving aside that Trump wants it, why is it stupid in your opinion? Second, the border patrol agents who are actually tasked with guarding the border and who have publicly come out in favor of building a wall to staunch illegal crossings stupid, dishonest or ignorant? Finally, if you believe these barriers are ineffective, should we take down the walls, fences and barriers that already exist on the U.S.-Mexican border (or at the very least stop paying to maintain them)?

Like you even know what the wall really is and where it would be. Not one expert who has looked at the possibilities believes what Trump says he wants is desirable or even feasible. He's playing you and you just suck it up. He is holding 800,000 people hostage because he doesn't have the votes for this totally unnecessary pet project. The Democrats will not negotiate with terrorists.
 

trouble13

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But....Individual 1 said he would take responsibility.

What is right is not to build a stupid assed wall.
Who gets credit for all the illegal aliens coming across our southern border?

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Xyce

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I'm not representing the liberals. I'm representing your president, since you seem to forget that this is all on him. He was offered a plan to open up the government, and he refused. Not only did he refuse, he said that this could go on for months, or even years.

But nice try, trying to blame this on the Democrats. :lol: Pretty predictable.

Now, for your viewing enjoyment, I will remind you yet again whose problem this falls back on:



My friend, you are ignoring pure logic and facts. I've said that the fault is on both sides, respecting the actual process of the Constitution. The Democrats are not providing funding for the beginning of border wall construction. The amount that Trump is asking for is peanuts compared to what we spend on foreign aid yearly. And building a wall would logically be in the interest of national security. If Trump were asking for $100 billion, I would be on your side in that he needs to negotiate, but he is asking for a very, very small amount of money compared to other things we spend our money on.
 

iguanaman

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Based on the fact that talks of impeachment are getting louder and louder on the Democrats side of the chamber, I don't think the Democrats would reasonably negotiate on border wall funding, especially since it is antithetical to the growing liberal faction of their party that swim in the currents of intersectionality. It's pretty difficult to imagine the Democrats effectively negotiating border wall funding with Trump while, at the same time, introducing articles of impeachment. Moreover, let's be honest, the Democrats don't want a wall across our Southern border. Those are future Democrats that are running across. As I've mentioned in my first post, if our country was aligned with Cuba along our Southern border, that wall would have been up 30 years ago.

LOL So that's the excuse for the hostage taking? That you are afraid that "future Democrats" are crossing our border? When a politician wants something he has to get the votes for it. Trump does not have the votes. There will be no money for the wall unless the Democrats say so and they have the votes. If Trump truly cares about the wall he would reopen the Govt. and make a deal with Nancy to get the votes he needs. That will mean giving up something the Dems want too.
 

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Trump needs to come up with a clear plan. He is not clear at all about what his goals are and how he plans to achieve them. Five billion dollars is both (a) very little relative to how much a wall on the southern border will ultimately cost and (b) a great deal to hand out without confidence that it will be used well. Also, a wall is just one part of an effective immigration and security plan. The costs for all parts need to be laid out before we start handing money out piecemeal for a small portion of a physical barrier on the southern border.

It's Trump's fault until he comes up with a plan.

Remember that this is money which he promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pony up. It was already his responsibility to have a coherent plan before demanding that Congress fund it, and it is doubly important since he needs to make the case for requesting money which he promised he wouldn't request.


It would be irresponsible of Congress to hand over money without having both clear details and a big picture to use for determining how much money to appropriate.

Exactly, this is the same as his beautiful healthcare plan that he claimed and be oh so soo easy...
 

Xyce

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Trump needs to come up with a clear plan. He is not clear at all about what his goals are and how he plans to achieve them. Five billion dollars is both (a) very little relative to how much a wall on the southern border will ultimately cost and (b) a great deal to hand out without confidence that it will be used well. Also, a wall is just one part of an effective immigration and security plan. The costs for all parts need to be laid out before we start handing money out piecemeal for a small portion of a physical barrier on the southern border.

It's Trump's fault until he comes up with a plan.

Remember that this is money which he promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pony up. It was already his responsibility to have a coherent plan before demanding that Congress fund it, and it is doubly important since he needs to make the case for requesting money which he promised he wouldn't request.


It would be irresponsible of Congress to hand over money without having both clear details and a big picture to use for determining how much money to appropriate.

I disagree that we should wait around till we come up with a fix-all solution. That simply leads to deadlock, a hallmark of bureaucracy. If your boat is sinking, and you notice a hole, you quickly cover the hole, you don't sit and think about how your going to cover the hole, dump the water our, and clean the area, while your boat sinks. Right?
 

trouble13

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This is Trump shutdown, he orchestrated it from the start and from the start the Dems told him they would not negotiate while the govt. is shut down. He STILL shut it down. When a politician wants something in America they get the votes they need or they lose and try again some other day. What the don't do is take hostages and hole up in the Whitehouse. We don't negotiate with terrorists who take hostages even if he is President. There is a very good reason too. Giving in to Trump would only encourage more of the same. The Senate needs to take a vote on the House bill and get more than 66 votes. Like that, the hostages will be rescued and Trump would learn a valuable lesson about how our Govt. works.
Which party is protecting illegal aliens presence here?

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Helix

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Who gets credit for all the illegal aliens coming across our southern border?

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good question. i'd argue that a significant portion of the credit goes to sectors of the economy with a desire for underpaid labor and a lot of wealth for lobbying, Central American nations that need some serious help, and a refusal to come up with a good solution that doesn't just address the supply side. however, "build the wall" doesn't require much analysis, fits on a bumper sticker, and is fun to chant, apparently.
 

iguanaman

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My friend, you are ignoring pure logic and facts. I've said that the fault is on both sides, respecting the actual process of the Constitution. The Democrats are not providing funding for the beginning of border wall construction. The amount that Trump is asking for is peanuts compared to what we spend on foreign aid yearly. And building a wall would logically be in the interest of national security. If Trump were asking for $100 billion, I would be on your side in that he needs to negotiate, but he is asking for a very, very small amount of money compared to other things we spend our money on.

$5.6 billion is not chump change for a pet project is it? Whats in it for the Democrats? Why do you think it is even a good idea? Regardless the first step is to reopen the Govt. because no deal will be made while it is closed. Trump knows this yet still is not willing to reopen the govt. That means to me that he doesn't want the money really, he hasn't even spent half of last years Billion + appropriation. He's making 800,000 people suffer becasue he's miffed that he lost the midterms and there are 17 investigations into him and TrumpCo. Yea that sounds like Trump alright.
 
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TheRepublican

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Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

Because they don’t want anything that would be a helpful tool that would keep people from coming in BY CUTTING CORNERS but, it’s pretty obvious that they don’t understand how to use their brains! It’s funny that the democrats isn’t going to take this to the United States Supreme Court . Well why? This would be more easier to get a legal ruling on this. The democrats aren’t going to run to get a ruling because the bench is full of conservative so there no extra justice that would go against the constitution and the rule of law. (Aka feels.) you are saying that a wall is dis-effect. Ok but, how is a fence effected? Because anyone can jump it. The question that I have is are we allowed to have a boarder?
 
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