Why the Shutdown is the Mostly the Democrats' Fault

[Amelia]

Trump needs to come up with a clear plan. He is not clear at all about what his goals are and how he plans to achieve them. Five billion dollars is both (a) very little relative to how much a wall on the southern border will ultimately cost and (b) a great deal to hand out without confidence that it will be used well. Also, a wall is just one part of an effective immigration and security plan. The costs for all parts need to be laid out before we start handing money out piecemeal for a small portion of a physical barrier on the southern border.

It's Trump's fault until he comes up with a plan.

Remember that this is money which he promised taxpayers wouldn't have to pony up. It was already his responsibility to have a coherent plan before demanding that Congress fund it, and it is doubly important since he needs to make the case for requesting money which he promised he wouldn't request.


It would be irresponsible of Congress to hand over money without having both clear details and a big picture to use for determining how much money to appropriate.

I disagree that we should wait around till we come up with a fix-all solution. That simply leads to deadlock, a hallmark of bureaucracy. If your boat is sinking, and you notice a hole, you quickly cover the hole, you don't sit and think about how your going to cover the hole, dump the water our, and clean the area, while your boat sinks. Right?

Our boat is not sinking.

And if we did have a boat which was sinking, then just covering the hole with the first thing we can reach probably wouldn't do much good. Hopefully we would have someone on board who knew about making repairs. If you just stuff your sweater in the hole, the boat will keep taking on water.

We're talking about the United States of America and the President of said country. But his thought processes on this matter seem about as deep as your cute little analogy about a rowboat with a hole in it. If he can't figure out how to use the resources of the government to come up with a plan -- or if he doesn't care to put in the effort -- then he cannot be trusted with the money.

Our ship is not sinking. We have time for him to fulfill his responsibility and come up with a plan to justify Congress handing him our money. If he is not up to the job he should hand it off to someone who is.

 

[Xyce]

LOL So that's the excuse for the hostage taking? That you are afraid that "future Democrats" are crossing our border? When a politician wants something he has to get the votes for it. Trump does not have the votes. There will be no money for the wall unless the Democrats say so and they have the votes. If Trump truly cares about the wall he would reopen the Govt. and make a deal with Nancy to get the votes he needs. That will mean giving up something the Dems want too.

If the Democrats were reasonable, only a handful of Democrat senators would need to agree on the beginning of border wall funding, which is a fraction of what we spend on foreign aid alone in a year for the bill to have passed in the Senate, after which Trump would have signed it. If Schumer just gave the OK for such a reasonable request, there would be no shutdown. Yet the Democrats, sorry, are the ones holding this country hostage. Trump is not asking for anything unreasonable. Like I said, if he were asking for $100 billion for the beginning of border wall funding, I can see the reasonable rejection from the Democrats, but he is, relatively, asking for peanuts to begin construction on a border wall, which would logically improve our national security, and Democrats, for political reasons, are being unreasonable.

Last year, weeks ago, when the Republicans were still in the majority, the bill for border wall funding passed the House, but it could not pass in the Senate because not one, not one, Democrat senator approved of it. Not one. And given the circumstances, it is completely unreasonable on the Democrats' part. They were being obstinate before the shutdown.

 

[Xyce]

$5.6 billion is not chump change for a pet project is it? Whats in it for the Democrats? Why do you think it is even a good idea? Regardless the first step is to reopen the Govt. because no deal will be made while it is closed. Trump knows this yet still is not willing to reopen the govt. That means to me that he doesn't want the money really, he hasn't even spent half of last years Billion + appropriation. He's making 800,000 people suffer becasue he's miffed that he lost the midterms and there are 17 investigations into him and TrumpCo. Yea that sounds like Trump alright.

My friend, no deal was made when it was open and we were having this debate. This has been going on since the Republicans controlled both the Senate and the House. A bill for border wall funding passed the House. But it could not pass the Senate, because not one Democrat voted to approve the $5.6 to begin border wall construction. That is purely unreasonable on the Democrats part.

 

[Xyce]

Our boat is not sinking.

And if we did have a boat which was sinking, then just covering the hole with the first thing we can reach probably wouldn't do much good. Hopefully we would have someone on board who knew about making repairs. If you just stuff your sweater in the hole, the boat will keep taking on water.

We're talking about the United States of America and the President of said country. But his thought processes on this matter seem about as deep as your cute little analogy about a rowboat with a hole in it. If he can't figure out how to use the resources of the government to come up with a plan -- or if he doesn't care to put in the effort -- then he cannot be trusted with the money.

Our ship is not sinking. We have time for him to fulfill his responsibility and come up with a plan to justify Congress handing him our money. If he is not up to the job he should hand it off to someone who is.

The boat example was a metaphor. To build on the metaphor, if you have 2 holes, but you only have enough material to successfully plug one of the holes, you don't wait around till you have enough material to fill both holes at the same time. You plug up the hole that you can plug while the material for the second hole comes to you. Putting a wall along the border would successfully plug one of those holes; the hole that it does not plug would be those who overstay their visa, for example. But just because the wall does not exactly deal with that particular problem, it does not mean we should just let the other problem continue to go on until we have figured out how to effectively deal with both problems simultaneously.

 

[yankintx]

Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

Do you know exactly how many illegals the Wall would prevent from crossing the border ? You don't because there has not been a single study done to justify the cost. Research before spending such a large amount of public money on such massive public works project. I have written my Congressional Rep. to introduce such a bill to fund such a study before handing over cash to contractors.

 

[OscarLevant]

Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

Say what? Trump said he would shut the gov down on 22 occasions on TV.

https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/1081191379873787904

A bipartisan bill passed the senate 100 - 0, with 1.3 billion for border security, which the president agreed to sign.

Until Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh complained, then he changed his mind because Trump didn't want to look like a fool to these two.


What happened was that a loved starved moron is running the government with no clue as to what leadership is.


If Pelosi does a quid pro quo on the wall, then it will encourage the president to shut down the government everytime the budget is up and he wants to hold 800,000 federal workers hostage until he gets his way. just as we don't negotiate with hostage takers, we don't negotiate with the prez when he shuts the gov down.


The ONLY person in this equation who wanted the government shut down is Trump, who said so on TV 22 times. Listen to the clip.

 

[beefheart]

Three quick questions, if I may, beefheart: First, and leaving aside that Trump wants it, why is it stupid in your opinion? Second, do you believe that those border patrol agents and their representatives who are actually tasked with guarding the border and who have publicly come out in favor of building a wall to staunch illegal crossings stupid, dishonest or ignorant? Finally, if you believe these barriers are ineffective, should we take down the walls, fences and barriers that already exist on the U.S.-Mexican border (or at the very least stop paying to maintain them)?

Build a 11 foot wall and 12 foot ladders become a commodity. Its not about people crossing the border, it is about overstays on visas.

Too much money for too little of a solution.

 

[beefheart]

Who gets credit for all the illegal aliens coming across our southern border?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Who took credit for the shutdown.....mmmmm

 

[Xyce]

Do you know exactly how many illegals the Wall would prevent from crossing the border ? You don't because there has not been a single study done to justify the cost. Research before spending such a large amount of public money on such massive public works project. I have written my Congressional Rep. to introduce such a bill to fund such a study before handing over cash to contractors.

I don't think there is any reasonable, scientifically sound methodology to "know exactly how many illegals the Wall would prevent from crossing the border." FactCheck.org can only give an estimate of how many illegals actually crossed the border in 2017. Since we don't know the exact number of illegals that cross the border per year, and since we don't know the exact number of illegals in the United Stated currently, it would follow that we wouldn't know the exact number of illegals that the wall would prevent from coming into our country.

Now, I don't think the wall would perfectly prevent every illegal from entering our country, but it would, logically, make it more difficult. A wall would create more of a logistical nightmare, especially for groups, to cross our border. Think about it. If you have a wall that is 50 feet from the ground up, and is built a few yards down for those who think about tunnels, it's going to be difficult to get to the other side. Let's say you had a 50-foot ladder to mount that 50-foot wall. Great. Now how are you going to get to the other side? Rope? Okay. What are you going to tie that rope to? Maybe you can swing that 50-foot ladder across the wall. Good luck not falling. And even if you manage to properly get the 50-foot ladder over the other side. You still have to climb down. And perhaps by the time you get down to the other side, there is a border agent waiting, since they had enough time to get there, due to the physical barrier of the wall.

 

[OscarLevant]

What is "right" is passing and then enforcing stricter immigration laws, banning all amnesties for immigration law-breakers, deporting anyone who enters the country illegally after a simple proof of legal entry hearing; jailing and then deporting repeat offenders...and ending a major problem by properly defining birthright citizenship as limited to children of citizens and LEGAL residents.

Then we would not need a wall because simple, just, and fair enforcement across the board would deter people from trying to come here illegally knowing it would be a waste of time and resources.

None of that has anything to do with the issue at hand, which is who is culpable for the shut down.

If someone robs a bank, and holds someone hostage in order to get a jet to cuba, who is responsible? The person who doesn't comply with the hostage taker or the hostage taker?


The hostage taker's filter has nothing to do with the chain of causality/responsibility.

What the hostage taker wants has no bearing on culpability for the hostage taking.


It's like arguing that a murderer is less responsible for his murder because his mother yelled at him a lot when he was a kid.


It might have drove him to do it, but it DOES NOT MITIGATE HIS CULPABILITY FOR HAVING COMMITTED MURDER.

See? he didn't have to murder. Many, with similar backgrounds, don't resort to murder.

 

[Xyce]

Who took credit for the shutdown.....mmmmm

Are you here to engage in a conversation with an open mind, or are you here just to post Democrat platitudes?

 

[yankintx]

I don't think there is any reasonable, scientifically sound methodology to "know exactly how many illegals the Wall would prevent from crossing the border." FactCheck.org can only give an estimate of how many illegals actually crossed the border in 2017. Since we don't know the exact number of illegals that cross the border per year, and since we don't know the exact number of illegals in the United Stated currently, it would follow that we wouldn't know the exact number of illegals that the wall would prevent from coming into our country.

Now, I don't think the wall would perfectly prevent every illegal from entering our country, but it would, logically, make it more difficult. A wall would create more of a logistical nightmare, especially for groups, to cross our border. Think about it. If you have a wall that is 50 feet from the ground up, and is built a few yards down for those who think about tunnels, it's going to be difficult to get to the other side. Let's say you had a 50-foot ladder to mount that 50-foot wall. Great. Now how are you going to get to the other side? Rope? Okay. What are you going to tie that rope to? Maybe you can swing that 50-foot ladder across the wall. Good luck not falling. And even if you manage to properly get the 50-foot ladder over the other side. You still have to climb down. And perhaps by the time you get down to the other side, there is a border agent waiting, since they had enough time to get there, due to the physical barrier of the wall.

But we wont know UNLESS there is a comprehensive study completed.

 

[OscarLevant]

Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

This is moronic logic. The only one that can end the shut down is Trump. In fact, McConnell could do it, without trump.

How? On the previous bill, it was 100 - 0, which would have funded the government so McConnell has a veto proof majority on the bill.

Pelosi is not going to negotiate with a hostage taker, period. If she did, it would encourage more hostage taking and we are talking about 800,000 federal employees whose lives are having havoc wreaked upon them for a Trump temper tantrum, people who are innocent.

That is what you don't get. The holding 800,000 people hostage by throwing them out of work, and depriving taxpayers the services these employees provide America, has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEAL MAKING.

Pelosi agreed to continue negotiations, but Trump must open the gov first. Currently, there are several bills introduced for this purpose, and McConnell won't even bring them to the floor.

5 billion for the "wall" won't build much, certainly won't solve the problem. There are more prudent uses of that money.

It wold take some 50 billion to big a big enough wall to do what you are implying should be done, and when half of visa overstays are a big part of illegal immigration, there are better things to spend that money, consideriong illegal immigration has been going down for years due to mexico's economy improving. Viola, there's an idea --- help Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador improve their economies.


in fact, America is the ultimate source of this problem. how so? The people in Honduras, Guatemala and El salvador, the vast majority of the illegals we are talking about now, are fleeing persecution from Drug cartels.

So, I say we weaken the cartels by making drugs legal. It sure worked for pot in Mexico. When's the last time I bought some mexican weed? I can't remember, it must have been over 25 years ago.

 

[Amelia]

The boat example was a metaphor. To build on the metaphor, if you have 2 holes, but you only have enough material to successfully plug one of the holes, you don't wait around till you have enough material to fill both holes at the same time. You plug up the hole that you can plug while the material for the second hole comes to you. Putting a wall along the border would successfully plug one of those holes; the hole that it does not plug would be those who overstay their visa, for example. But just because the wall does not exactly deal with that particular problem, it does not mean we should just let the other problem continue to go on until we have figured out how to effectively deal with both problems simultaneously.

If he is not up to the job of coming up with a detailed plan about how much the wall will cost in total and how much he can do with 5 billion dollars, then he needs to hand the job over to someone who is qualified and willing to do the work.

You don't just hand someone 5 billion dollars (which he promised he wouldn't ask for) and say "we trust you". The first step in showing he can be trusted with the money is a coherent plan. He has all the planners and all the data and all the computing power he could possibly need. If he can't or won't deploy those resources in showing what the money will be used for then our legislators are right not to give it to him. The president and the Congress both have responsibilities. If the president is not living up to his, then it's all the more important for Congress to live up to theirs.

 

[Xyce]

But we wont know UNLESS there is a comprehensive study completed.

This is an unreasonable proposal. What you're asking for is more sunshine without the sun. If we don't know how the exact number of people who cross the border illegally, we can't know how many people the wall would prevent from crossing the border. Waiting around until we figure it out is absurd, sorry.

 

[CriticalThought]

Removing the black-and-white conclusions from those who are partisanly Trump or anti-Trump and giving air to nuance, the shutdown is actually, when you simply look at the facts, the fault of both sides. It is the fault of the Democrats for not providing money for the start of construction on the border wall, and it is the fault of Trump for vetoing as long as his demands are not met for monetary allotment for border wall funding.

However, the fault for the shutdown holds more weight at the feet of the Democrats. Trump is asking for less than $6 billion to begin construction of a border wall on the Southern border. $6 billion is many times less than what we spend on foreign aid yearly. The wall would help bring down the amount of illegals that pour through the border every year. Scores of thousands of illegals entered the country in 2017. In fact, according to FactCheck.org, an estimated 303,916 entered the United States illegally in 2017.

Many on the left--wrongly--argue that over half of the illegals who are in this country are here because they have overstayed their visas. This is untrue. It's about 40%, which is a lot, which is a problem. But it is not a priority. Those who have overstayed their visas have already been vetted. They're not crossing the border anonymously. Those who cross the border without being vetted can be criminals, can be carrying a contagious disease, etc. Also, undocumented workers negatively affect the wages of Americans.

Is a wall going to guarantee that no illegal crosses into the United States? No. But it will help. It will make it more difficult to cross the border, especially if those attempting to cross the border travel in groups. If the wall is built yards into the ground, it will help against those who want to dig. If the wall is high enough and flat at the top, it will make it logistically more difficult to get to the other side, even if you have a big enough ladder to get to the top.

Is the wall a fix-all solution to solve the illegal immigration question. No. As I've pointed out earlier, a wall is not going to stop a person entering this country on a plane and eventually overstaying their visa. But it clearly, logically does help solve one aspect of the problem. Not constructing a wall because it does not solve every aspect of the problem is like letting a boat sink because you do not have enough material to fill all the holes.

Democrats need to end this shutdown. They need to stop being obstinate, and do what is right for the country.

You realize that Republicans have had control of the House and Senate for two years?

You don't think at any point in those two years they couldn't have come up with an immigration reform package including full funding for a wall that would have won over enough Democrat senators to overcome a filibuster?

Why is it you are so eager to ignore the last two years to promote the narrative that Dems are to blame now?

 

[yankintx]

This is an unreasonable proposal. What you're asking for is more sunshine without the sun. If we don't know how the exact number of people who cross the border illegally, we can't know how many people the wall would prevent from crossing the border. Waiting around until we figure it out is absurd, sorry.

It negligent too spend billions without a study, would you spend 5k of your own money without due dillegence? If so I have some Ocean front property in Arizona to sell, interested ?

 

[yankintx]

This is an unreasonable proposal. What you're asking for is more sunshine without the sun. If we don't know how the exact number of people who cross the border illegally, we can't know how many people the wall would prevent from crossing the border. Waiting around until we figure it out is absurd, sorry.

What is unreasonable is asking 5 billion for a public works project with zero research.

 

[Nickyjo]

If I take responsibility for the next meteorite that crashes into the earth, it is not, in fact, my fault.

Trump said that because he operates without a filter. Politically, it was dumb on his part to say that; I agree. But, technically speaking, with regard to how our constitutional mechanism actually works, the responsibility is both the fault of the legislative and executive branch. But I argue that the fault is more of the Democrats, because they are being highly unreasonable.

Really. Democrats have been in power for couple days in the House. Why didn’t the GOP fund the wall already during the past couple of years? Ans: because it’s a vanity project of a narcisstic buffoon who has used racial cues to advance his career. Democrats seem more than willing to deal with the issue, there even was a deal to do so together with other immigration efforts. But Orange Julius Caesar listens to xenophobes like Limbaugh and Coulter, not to the sane people in his own party.

 

[Xyce]

You realize that Republicans have had control of the House and Senate for two years?

You don't think at any point in those two years they couldn't have come up with an immigration reform package including full funding for a wall that would have won over enough Democrat senators to overcome a filibuster?

Why is it you are so eager to ignore the last two years to promote the narrative that Dems are to blame now?

Well, the Democrat party, pretty much since day 1, has been entirely against this president, comparing him to Hitler. The Special Counsel investigation--which I think is of questionable integrity--started a couple of months into this presidency. The Democrat chorus for impeachment has only been getting louder and louder the farther we get into this presidency. The Democrats have been--and I think this shutdown clearly illustrates this point--unreasonable. If they were a party that actually put country over party, patriotic principles over partisanship, then, in theory, you would be right in questioning why Republicans did not come up with a plan to get bipartisan support for a wall. In short, given their behavior, the Democrat party was, and continues not to be, in nature to cross the aisle and work with this president. They are being completely unreasonable, and now government workers are having to work without pay, because they want to play a political game of chicken.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well, the Democrat party, pretty much since day 1, has been entirely against this president, comparing him to Hitler. The Special Counsel investigation--which I think is of questionable integrity--started a couple of months into this presidency. The Democrat chorus for impeachment has only been getting louder and louder the farther we get into this presidency. The Democrats have been--and I think this shutdown clearly illustrates this point--unreasonable. If they were a party that actually put country over party, patriotic principles over partisanship, then, in theory, you would be right in questioning why Republicans did not come up with a plan to get bipartisan support for a wall. In short, given their behavior, the Democrat party was, and continues not to be, in nature to cross the aisle and work with this president. They are being completely unreasonable, and now government workers are having to work without pay, because they want to play a political game of chicken.

The GOP could not even get their own moderates and conservatives on the same page in immigration reform. They never even attempted to include the Democrats.

 

[Xyce]

The GOP could not even get their own moderates and conservatives on the same page in immigration reform. They never even attempted to include the Democrats.

I agree that there is surely some so-called Republicans, such as Flake and McCain, who let their hatred for Trump compromise any conservative principles they had. Even if the Republicans were fully behind every GOP plan, the Democrats were not willing to work with them. When you put everything in context, for example the fever pitch on the left, the base of the Democrat party, for impeachment and the overall vitriolic hatred for this man, it seems absurd that the Democrat party is of a nature to work with Republicans and this president for the good of this country. They are the party of unprincipled adamancy.

 

[CriticalThought]

I agree that there is surely some so-called Republicans, such as Flake and McCain, who let their hatred for Trump compromise any conservative principles they had. Even if the Republicans were fully behind every GOP plan, the Democrats were not willing to work with them. When you put everything in context, for example the fever pitch on the left, the base of the Democrat party, for impeachment and the overall vitriolic hatred for this man, it seems absurd that the Democrat party is of a nature to work with Republicans and this president for the good of this country. They are the party of unprincipled adamancy.

Interesting. So if the Gang of 8 bill was offered up today by the Democrats, would you argue that Trump should support it to end the shutdown?

 

[Xyce]

Interesting. So if the Gang of 8 bill was offered up today by the Democrats, would you argue that Trump should support it to end the shutdown?

Absolutely not.

According to The National Law Review, the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 proposed a "citizenship path for undocumented immigrants already in the United States." If there was border wall funding in that bill to counter the aftertaste of amnesty, then I would surely be open to the idea. The fact that a pathway to citizenship was in that bill without funding for a border wall lends warrant to my point that Democrats want illegals to come into our country, because they are future Democrat voters after Democrats work with Republicans to come up with a bill such as the aforementioned to give them a way to become citizens with the inalienable right of the franchise. The Simpson–Mazzoli Act also proves this to, which "legalized undocumented immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982." And you know what it did not have? Border wall funding. Republicans have caved and sold out on this issue for too long. The time is now. We need to get this thing right. If Trump caves, he's another hypocrite politician, and it will be political suicide.

 

[CriticalThought]

Absolutely not.

According to The National Law Review, the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 proposed a "citizenship path for undocumented immigrants already in the United States." If there was border wall funding in that bill to counter the aftertaste of amnesty, then I would surely be open to the idea. The fact that a pathway to citizenship was in that bill without funding for a border wall lends warrant to my point that Democrats want illegals to come into our country, because they are future Democrat voters after Democrats work with Republicans to come up with a bill such as the aforementioned to give them a way to become citizens with the inalienable right of the franchise. The Simpson–Mazzoli Act also proves this to, which "legalized undocumented immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982." And you know what it did not have? Border wall funding. Republicans have caved and sold out on this issue for too long. The time is now. We need to get this thing right. If Trump caves, he's another hypocrite politician, and it will be political suicide.

Actually the bill had more funding for border protection than the president is currently asking for if my memory serves me.