Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of Our E

[What if...?]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

The 'divvy up of capitalism' is about productivity and the exchange of value, not scarcity. Scarcity is about the divvy up of socialism; or, more precisely, the result of socialism

Where did you get that?

 

[jet57]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

The economic differences between Hillary and Bernie sorted and explained. No secrets here, but rather an honest comparison well done. No pat answers, no obvious conclusions.

For me Sanders remains the only way to go. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the establishment, a vote for status quo. I understand that some people want to continue living much as they do today. I understand people don't want much change at all. I get that. I don't agree, but I understand that some people are reluctant to toss the broken system out. Hillary would change little. We all know that. Hillary will never get my vote.

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The full article here.

I like you're thinking, but I just don't think that Sanders has the juice to pull it off. He's a little too lefty for me, and Hillary's a little to righty for me. I just don't see Sanders being successful.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

I doubt you would like the outcome.

If we had the REAL conversation.

Because its quite clear the game has changed to such a degree that fundamental precepts will have to be looked at.

We're going to have to choose between vast personal fortunes and a reasonable quality of life for the greatest number.

We can't have both.

There aren't enough resources on the world to provide a western, first world lifestyle to the entire planet. We are too wasteful.

Anything that deals with this reality means no place for vast, intergenerational wealth. There will still be rich people, there will still be profits. But they'll both have to be "smaller".

And dopamine is a hell of a drug.

Re Bolded: If we wanted to...we could provide more than enough for each individual to have an abundance of everything each needed...with an adequate supply of those things many want.

EASILY.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Re Bolded: If we wanted to...we could provide more than enough for each individual to have an abundance of everything each needed...with an adequate supply of those things many want.

EASILY.

Yeah. But not our disposable lifestyle.

I like the idea of a "hand me down" model.

Make EVERYTHING as well.as it possible can be made. As durable/serviceable as possible.

Products would cost more but be meant to be sold over and over until that TV eventually makes it to the third world. (Or your heirs)

Slower progress, much less waste.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

I agree with you. Let the welfare statists and socialists make their case against the free marketeers. Lets have a true ideological battle between the two sides and see who comes out on top. Hillary just represents the continuation of Bush/Obama/establishment half measures, like Obamacare, for instance. Those who think the state should run the health care system, let them make their case against those who think the market should handle it

I'm for it. Let the GOP run on killing off Medicare, Medicaid, SS and the VA and putting everyone on a "free market" plan. And democrats will win that argument with ease - it'd be a drubbing of epic proportions at the polls.

 

[Lovebug]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Sanders has yet to convince me he could actually get anything he's promised through congress, sooooo......

As any president, past and present, the person has to have ability to work with any given congress. Future house/senate have yet to be determined.
If that person shows to be for the people, then congress is best served to work with that person and not against the will of the people.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

One, Bernie Sanders would not be able to get a tenth of one percent of his vision enacted...and that is being generous. I love the guy and what he wants done...but his programs are all heart and no head.

Two, the economy is in bad shape and will get worse no matter who is elected president...or which party controls the congress.

Three, the most important issue facing the electorate this election is who will make the nominations that are coming for the Supreme Court. If the Republicans win this election (and retain control of the senate) we are doomed.

that's what we've had the past few years. Give some examples of the doom becauase of the SC?

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Re Bolded: If we wanted to...we could provide more than enough for each individual to have an abundance of everything each needed...with an adequate supply of those things many want.

EASILY.

the fatal flaw in your 'logic'. You assume that if wealth is confiscated from the wealthy at high rates and redistributed to the non-wealthy, the wealthy will continue doing the things that made them wealthy. In other words, arguing that if an apple breaks off a tree, it will go up.

 

[Zyphlin]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Moderator's Warning:

Moved to proper location

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

that's what we've had the past few years. Give some examples of the doom becauase of the SC?

Think of some on your own.

One of the WORST things that could happen to our nation...is for the SCOTUS to become more dominated by the regressives.

I can only hope that the people who claim they will not vote for Hillary Clinton if she wins or Bernie Sanders if he wins...come to their senses.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

the fatal flaw in your 'logic'. You assume that if wealth is confiscated from the wealthy at high rates and redistributed to the non-wealthy, the wealthy will continue doing the things that made them wealthy. In other words, arguing that if an apple breaks off a tree, it will go up.

I have never supported "confiscating from the wealth to redistribute to the non-wealthy.

We can see that everyone has enough food...without any rich people eating any less.

We can see that everyone has sufficient shelter...without any rich people being put out into the cold.

We can see that everyone has sufficient education...without denying any rich people the chance to be educated.

We can see that everyone has sufficient medical care...without asking any rich people to go with less medicare as a result..

I could go on...but why bother.

EVERYONE can have sufficient (PLUS)...without any rich people having to do with less.

Think outside the box.

NO 'FATAL FLAW."

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

They said the same thing about FDR.



Sanders indeed cannot do it alone. If you listen to his speeches Bernie is big on "We" compared to Hillary who is big on "I". That is telling. Sanders is saying and has said that he cannot do it alone. No one can but that is indeed part of the problem. Most Americans have sat on their flabby asses and let someone else do and someone else has, the 1% and their toadie minions. They have damn near total control. They are not going initiate a return of some of the massive wealth and power they now control.

Although people seem to forget it democratic change comes from the bottom and flows upward. It must be initiated and sustained by the people. That is what Sanders' campaign is about. People are involved. If Bernie wins it will be because most of the voting public have become involved. It will be incumbent on the People to stay involved if the transition is to be successful.

The movement, the "revolution" is bigger than Bernie. I believe few people want status quo.



Yes and continuing with the same failed feckin corporate controlled government we have is going to turn things around how?



You are saying that you won't approve of Sanders' supreme court appointments? He has said time and time again that his appointments must agree to overturn Citizens United. Hillary time and again has avoid answering the question. Are you opposed to Citizens United?

There are worse things than the status quo, GW Bush showed us that. The problem is that Sanders will be crushed by the weight of his ambitious platform in the general. All people will hear is that he wants to increase their taxes. Please don't say that he polls better than Hillary since he is a virtual unknown at this point. At the start of his campaign he said he would not be a "spoiler" and he will gladly vote for Hillary over any Republican. Let's hope his supporters follow his lead. We cannot afford another Republican in the Whitehouse. On the bright side, Sanders success has certainly made Hillary more progressive and I believe she will continue that trend as President.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

I have never supported "confiscating from the wealth to redistribute to the non-wealthy.


NO 'FATAL FLAW."

Big fatal flaw.


When you say we have enough to take care of everybody, what else could you possibly mean?

when you say people can have more food, more shelter and more health care, ( presuming they don't have enough already) what else could you possibly mean except more redistribution?

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Think of some on your own.

One of the WORST things that could happen to our nation...is for the SCOTUS to become more dominated by the regressives.
ses.

~You're the one who made the claim. Give examples of where all these regressives have doomed our society?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Big fatal flaw.

If there is a flaw...it is in your thinking.

When you say we have enough to take care of everybody, what else could you possibly mean?

I mean there is more than enough to go around without taking anything from anyone. You gotta think outside the box for it to make sense. I hope you can do it.

when you say people can have more food, more shelter and more health care, ( presuming they don't have enough already) what else could you possibly mean except more redistribution?

I did not say that. Quote what I actually said...and deal with that.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Don't give up hope just yet, friend.

There is no hope, the fix is in, you can see how both sides react to an uprise by the people the represent when those people don't choose who they want you to choose/.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

~You're the one who made the claim. Give examples of where all these regressives have doomed our society?

No. Anyone who wants to...understands exactly what I am saying.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

If there is a flaw...it is in your thinking.



I mean there is more than enough to go around without taking anything from anyone. You gotta think outside the box for it to make sense. I hope you can do it.

hat.

I'm sorry, liberal logic makes me dizzy under normal circumstances but this is vertigo stuff. Explain how things ( like food can shelter and health care) can 'go around'??

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

I'm sorry, liberal logic makes me dizzy under normal circumstances but this is vertigo stuff. Explain how things ( like food can shelter and health care) can 'go around'??

If you do not understand the expression, "...enough to go around"...I doubt it is possible to communicate with you on any reasonable level.

I am saying that everyone can have enough food...without any of those rich people you are so concerned with...giving up any food.

I am saying that everyone can have sufficient shelter, clothing, medical care, education opportunities...WITHOUT ANY OF THOSE RICH PEOPLE WITH WHOM YOU ARE SO CONCERNED...giving up any shelter, clothing, medical care, or educational opportunities.

If you do not think so...tell me why.

 

[KLATTU]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

If you do not understand the expression, "...enough to go around"...I doubt it is possible to communicate with you on any reasonable level.

I am saying that everyone can have enough food...without any of those rich people you are so concerned with...giving up any food.

I am saying that everyone can have sufficient shelter, clothing, medical care, education opportunities...WITHOUT ANY OF THOSE RICH PEOPLE WITH WHOM YOU ARE SO CONCERNED...giving up any shelter, clothing, medical care, or educational opportunities.

If you do not think so...tell me why.

Well let's just take sufficient shelter. Some people don't have it,yet you say any can have it. How?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Well let's just take sufficient shelter. Some people don't have it,yet you say any can have it. How?

Got plenty of shelter...can make as much more of it as is needed.

Just insure that everyone has plenty of shelter.

How many of those rich people you are so worried about are going to have to live out in the street because of that?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

2016 Election
[h=2]A New Yorker’s Guide To The GOP Primary — District By District[/h] By Harry Enten

 

[Greenbeard]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

I understand that some people want to continue living much as they do today. I understand people don't want much change at all. I get that. I don't agree, but I understand that some people are reluctant to toss the broken system out.

The rhetoric behind this boosterism is getting a little bizarre. What exactly is supposed to fundamentally change about the way I live? If you were using grandiose language like that to describe uploading my consciousness into a machine or reorganizing society around city-states or something, okay. But from the article it sounds like you're talking about... infrastructure spending (which Hillary also calls for). Or more enrollment in higher ed (which Hillary also calls for). (Leaving aside the stuff the article implies Bernie is proposing which I don't think he is--like public ownership of the banks or a return to pre-PRWORA welfare).

But now we're going to fundamentally change the way we live? When did this campaign become a TED Talk?

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

The rhetoric behind this boosterism is getting a little bizarre. What exactly is supposed to fundamentally change about the way I live?

I don't know how you live.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Why the Contest Between Hillary and Bernie Is Such a Big Deal for the Future of O

Sanders has yet to convince me he could actually get anything he's promised through congress, sooooo......

What would hillary get through that you like?