Why Should Liberals Like Libertarian Ideas?

[LowDown]

All of it. You have zero clue what liberals are, how they think, what even being a modern liberal means.

Well, let's see:

Are liberals authoritarian? Darn right they are.

Are liberals elitist? Darn right they are. Or at least a significant number of them.

Are liberals libertine? Only to the extent that they want to tear down all morality and do whatever the hell they please and call it "progress". In other words, of course they are.

Are liberals anti-human environmentalists? But I repeat myself. I can't believe anyone would bother to deny this.

And as for totally "consumed by identity politics and envy of anyone who has any wealth or power", come on now, that's almost by definition. Identity politics and blather about "social justice", i.e. envy. That's all liberalism is any more.

 

[Hard Truth]

The left hates big corporations and the power they wield. They relentlessly go after them and try to diminish their power over the American consumer, yet they are willing to turn their freedom over to the government, who has nobody they have to answer too. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Liberals are always striving to remove corruption and the disproportionate influence of big money interests in government to get it closer to to a real democracy. Conservatives generally oppose those efforts. As imperfect as it is, there are many ways for the people to hold government accountable. Holding a large corporation accountable is only an option for someone with plenty of time and lawyers.

"Freedoms" such as the right to make all of you own healthcare choices only exist for those who can afford to make them. For the poor, including many working poor, the only choice is whether to give up food money for a trip to the most affordable health care. For the poor, ACA increases their freedom of choice. The same principal is true for many government programs serving lower income people.

 

[Hard Truth]

Funny, back with these "backwards" classical ideals the US was number 1 in almost every metric... The greater the shift away from those ideals the faster America is falling apart...

You are right.... Moronic to say the least.

To the extent that the USA was ever number one it was because most of our competitors were seriously harmed by two world wars. The quality of life for the poor and minorities was never number 1 in the USA. Much of the good life enjoyed by middle class and richer white men was made possible by the exploitation of everyone else. (i.e cheap labor by blacks and immigrants)

 

[Hard Truth]

Ya, you missed the point... The more we "move on" the more America falls behind... But it sounds like this is desirable to you...

Since conservatives claim that Europe is an awful place, the only people we are falling behind are the Chinese including Hong Kong, the Japanese and residents of Singapore. None of them are bastions of freedom or the type of place I would choose to live in. (possible exception of Japan)

 

[Hard Truth]

Well Democrats are what Americans refer to as liberals even though they are not.

Only a handful of Democrats holding national office are liberals, the rest are centrists, including Obama, Reid, Pelosi, etc. Liberals are better represented among rank and file Democrats, but are not a majority.

 

[Hard Truth]

What "utopian vision"? What is utopian about (a) having certain moral compass (freedom of choice is important), and (b) recognizing limitations of presumed actionable knowledge in complex systems like our economy and society at large?

You are probably talking about the most puerile "everything and now" fringe - like some members of the Libertarian Party - but that's like judging Democrats by Lyndon LaRouche.

If anything, libertarianism (classical liberalism) is aggressively ANTI-utopian. Nobody know "how it all should be done". Nobody has should be given the right to coerce masses according to his or her "vision". Set people free, diversify risks, learn from experience.

Libertarianism is the delusion that people, especially businesses, will consistently act ethically without regulations.

 

[Hard Truth]

this is also incorrect, the people have been given more power thru voting, with the 17th amendment.....giving us more democracy which is evil.

Democracy is the most vile form of government--james madison.

America was created with republican government or mixed government, ...not democracy.

It is theoretically a democratic republic.

I appreciate it when conservatives honestly reveal their elitist, authoritarian views.

 

[Hard Truth]

sorry, but our declaration of independence is u.s.code.........law.

Wrong!

The declaration of independence is not a legal document.

 

[Master PO]

It is theoretically a democratic republic.

I appreciate it when conservatives honestly reveal their elitist, authoritarian views.

america moved closer to democracy with the 17th....however it is still not a democracy.

libertarians..dont have authoritarian views

 

[johndylan1]

Libertarianism is the delusion that people, especially businesses, will consistently act ethically without regulations.

Isn't just a tad more delusional to believe that those same people, with the corrupting influence of political pressure and the added power of government force, will consistently act ethically?

 

[Hard Truth]

Quote Originally Posted by carjosse: "the job of government is to benefit society which cannot be done without democracy and the voice of the people"

oh, where is that delegated power in the u.s. Constitution?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

[Master PO]

Wrong!

The declaration of independence is not a legal document.

really!The Organic Laws of the United States of America can be found in Volume One of the United States Code which contains the General and Permanent Laws of the United States. U.S. Code (2007)[1] defines the organic laws of the United States of America to include the Declaration of Independence of July 4, 1776, the Articles of Confederation of November 15, 1777, the Northwest Ordinance of July 13, 1787, and the Constitution of September 17, 1787.[2][3]

 

[Hard Truth]

america moved closer to democracy with the 17th....however it is still not a democracy.

libertarians..dont have authoritarian views

anti-democratic=authoritarian

If you believe that people are incapable of governing themselves, then you must believe that an elite authority should do it.

 

[Hard Truth]

really!The Organic Laws of the United States of America can be found in Volume One of the United States Code which contains the General and Permanent Laws of the United States. U.S. Code (2007)[1] defines the organic laws of the United States of America to include the Declaration of Independence of July 4, 1776, the Articles of Confederation of November 15, 1777, the Northwest Ordinance of July 13, 1787, and the Constitution of September 17, 1787.[2][3]

Although the Declaration of Independence stands with the Constitution as a founding document of the United States of America, its position in U.S. law is much less certain than that of the Constitution. The Declaration has been recognized as the founding act of law establishing the United States as a sovereign and independent nation, and Congress has placed it at the beginning of the U.S. Code, under the heading "The Organic Laws of the United States of America." The Supreme Court, however, has generally not considered it a part of the organic law of the country. For example, although the Declaration mentions a right to rebellion, this right, particularly with regard to violent rebellion, has not been recognized by the Supreme Court and other branches of the federal government. The most notable failure to uphold this right occurred when the Union put down the rebellion by the Southern Confederacy in the Civil War
Declaration of independence legal definition of Declaration of independence. Declaration of independence synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

 

[Master PO]

anti-democratic=authoritarian

If you believe that people are incapable of governing themselves, then you must believe that an elite authority should do it.

sorry, in republican government, people also vote........

just becuase people vote, does not automatically make it democratic........Stalin was voted for...he was the only one on the ballot, but he was voted for.

 

[Master PO]

Although the Declaration of Independence stands with the Constitution as a founding document of the United States of America, its position in U.S. law is much less certain than that of the Constitution. The Declaration has been recognized as the founding act of law establishing the United States as a sovereign and independent nation, and Congress has placed it at the beginning of the U.S. Code, under the heading "The Organic Laws of the United States of America." The Supreme Court, however, has generally not considered it a part of the organic law of the country. For example, although the Declaration mentions a right to rebellion, this right, particularly with regard to violent rebellion, has not been recognized by the Supreme Court and other branches of the federal government. The most notable failure to uphold this right occurred when the Union put down the rebellion by the Southern Confederacy in the Civil War
Declaration of independence legal definition of Declaration of independence. Declaration of independence synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

go into u.s.code and look at it for yourself.

 

[Master PO]

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that when a politician takes his oath to "support the Constitution," he not only swears to uphold that document, but all the founding charters of our country, which together are called the "organic law."[1]
The "Organic Law" is the fundamental law of the State, its constitutive principles. It is the legal foundation upon which all statutes and decisions are to be grounded. In West's edition of the U.S. Code, the section on "The Organic Laws of the United States of America" contains such documents as the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.[2]

Black's Law Dictionary, Rev. 4th Ed.
ORGANIC LAW - The fundamental law, or constitution, of a state or nation, written or unwritten; that law or system of laws or principles which defines and establishes the organization of its government.
St. Louis v. Dorr, 145 Mo. 466, 46 S.W. 976, 42 L.R.A. 686, 86 Am.St. Rep. 575

 

[Hard Truth]

Isn't just a tad more delusional to believe that those same people, with the corrupting influence of political pressure and the added power of government force, will consistently act ethically?

A portion of the population will always act as unethically as they can get away with. Well-enforced regulations and laws created by the people through a legitimate democratic process, are proven to be the most effective way to prevent or limit bad behavior. When governments fall apart (Somalia, Europe after WWII, Iraq after the USA invasion) bad things happen. The USA does not have a perfectly legitimate democratic process, but it is better than having no government.

 

[Hard Truth]

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that when a politician takes his oath to "support the Constitution," he not only swears to uphold that document, but all the founding charters of our country, which together are called the "organic law."[1]
The "Organic Law" is the fundamental law of the State, its constitutive principles. It is the legal foundation upon which all statutes and decisions are to be grounded. In West's edition of the U.S. Code, the section on "The Organic Laws of the United States of America" contains such documents as the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Northwest Ordinance of 1787.[2]

Black's Law Dictionary, Rev. 4th Ed.
ORGANIC LAW - The fundamental law, or constitution, of a state or nation, written or unwritten; that law or system of laws or principles which defines and establishes the organization of its government.
St. Louis v. Dorr, 145 Mo. 466, 46 S.W. 976, 42 L.R.A. 686, 86 Am.St. Rep. 575

Right or wrong, the law is what the Supreme Court says it is.

 

[Master PO]

Right or wrong, the law is what the Supreme Court says it is.

its law....period.

 

[Master PO]

A portion of the population will always act as unethically as they can get away with. Well-enforced regulations and laws created by the people through a legitimate democratic process, are proven to be the most effective way to prevent or limit bad behavior. When governments fall apart (Somalia, Europe after WWII, Iraq after the USA invasion) bad things happen. The USA does not have a perfectly legitimate democratic process, but it is better than having no government.

it had a better government when it was true republican..

american government modeled after roman government.what is know as mixed government.


Roman Republican Form of Government

In 509 B.C., the Romans expelled the Etruscans and established the Republic. Having witnessed the problems of monarchy on their own land, and aristocracy and democracy among the Greeks, they opted for a mixed form of government, with three branches.

Monarchical Branch

Two magistrates or consuls with supreme civil and military authority. They held office for one year, then became senators for life. Each consul could veto the other, they led the army, served as judges, and had religious duties.
Aristocratic Branch= = president elected by the electoral college

Senate (senatus = council of elders) was an advisory branch, initially composed of about 300 citizens who served for life. The ranks of the Senate were drawn from ex-consuls and other officers who served for life.
Democratic Branch= senate appointed by the state legislatures

The Assembly of Centuries (comitia centuriata), house of representatives..elected by the people which was composed of all members of the army, elected consuls annually. The Assembly of Tribes (comitia tributa), which contained all citizens, approved or rejected laws and decided issues of war and peace.

federalist 40
The Powers of the Convention to Form a Mixed Government Examined and Sustained
From the New York Packet.
Friday, January 18, 1788.
MADISON

To the People of the State of New York:

THE SECOND point to be examined is, whether the [constitutional] convention were authorized to frame and propose this mixed Constitution.

 

[Mr. Invisible]

Well considering he calls American Liberals Social Democrats he does not know what he is talking about. There is a reason Libertarianism is dead in almost every country in the world but the U.S..

Well, libertarianism as we know it is a uniquely American phenomenon with regards to its focus on free markets. However, there are libertarians out in the world, it is just that they are more rights-based/focused and libertarians whose views line up with mine are still out in the world.

 

[Cyrylek]

Libertarianism is the delusion that people, especially businesses, will consistently act ethically without regulations.

That's anarchism, not libertarianism.

 

[johndylan1]

A portion of the population will always act as unethically as they can get away with. Well-enforced regulations and laws created by the people through a legitimate democratic process, are proven to be the most effective way to prevent or limit bad behavior. When governments fall apart (Somalia, Europe after WWII, Iraq after the USA invasion) bad things happen. The USA does not have a perfectly legitimate democratic process, but it is better than having no government.

agreed

 

[poweRob]

Why Should Liberals Like Libertarian Ideas?

Learn Liberty - YouTube

I've got loads of policy crossover with libertarians as I've told you. There's a lot of common ground.