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Why public schools are bad

Mr. D

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XShipRider said:
The government has all but removed
the parent from the picture by mandating what educational topics be taught.
In essence, the government is dictating social mores, sexual education
and religious beliefs (or the removal thereof) across the entire country
rather than allowing local dictates through our elected school
board members.

As for deterioration, the federal mandates should be limited to
infrastructure management not curriculim management.
Baloney! If you mean you don't get to shove your particular Christian prayer on other people's captive audience of kids or not allow kids to learn about how to avoid STD's and make unwise choices related to sex, you are right! That's one of the things many people don't like about America Freedom! Others don't have to live by your opinions! You have your home and church to teach your views on social mores, sexual education and religious beliefs! That's the incredible far right spin, "If your kid isn't forced to hear my prayer in our public school you're taking away my religious freedom! Christianity is under attack as I bang on your door with a Bible in my hand to tell you that you are going to hell!" Name a President that was not a Christian? Taliban mentality and spin is alive and well in the U.S.! :roll:

Most parents don't want to be involved until they dissagree and want someone fired! Go to a local Board of Ed. meeting when no hot topic is involved! I taught in a district with 1500 teachers and often there would be hand full of parents! Of course some came every single meeting with a angry anti public school conspiracy complaint! Most are home watching "Survivor-back biting jerks in Pupu Tata".

Much of federal involvement is because of incredibly bad local decisions from local politician Board Members based on ignorance, prejudice and pandoring to become a state representative. Without federal involvement we'd still have segregated schools in some areas! Federal money means federal involvement, some good and some bad!
 

XShipRider

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Mr. D said:
Baloney! If you mean you don't get to shove your particular Christian prayer on other people's captive audience of kids or not allow kids to learn about how to avoid STD's and make unwise choices related to sex, you are right! That's one of the things many people don't like about America Freedom! Others don't have to live by your opinions! You have your home and church to teach your views on social mores, sexual education and religious beliefs! That's the incredible far right spin, "If your kid isn't forced to hear my prayer in our public school you're taking away my religious freedom! Christianity is under attack as I bang on your door with a Bible in my hand to tell you that you are going to hell!" Name a President that was not a Christian? Taliban mentality and spin is alive and well in the U.S.! :roll:

Most parents don't want to be involved until they dissagree and want someone fired! Go to a local Board of Ed. meeting when no hot topic is involved! I taught in a district with 1500 teachers and often there would be hand full of parents! Of course some came every single meeting with a angry anti public school conspiracy complaint! Most are home watching "Survivor-back biting jerks in Pupu Tata".

Much of federal involvement is because of incredibly bad local decisions from local politician Board Members based on ignorance, prejudice and pandoring to become a state representative. Without federal involvement we'd still have segregated schools in some areas! Federal money means federal involvement, some good and some bad!

I didn't say any of that. Nor did I say to teach my social mores, my
form of sex education and certainly not my religious beliefs. Nor is is
your place to destroy the religious beliefs of any student or interfere in
their practice of same. Obviously the NEA approach to sex ed. is working
just great [sic] as STDs and pregnancy are once again on the rise!

I think you've grouped me into the wrong faction. I firmly believe in
the separation of church and state. I believe sex ed. should be taught at
home. I believe all social mores need to be taught at home. The
school does need to produce good citizens which, in my small mind
(according to you anyway), means teaching kids manners. Good manners
would go a long way to the betterment of society. Of course, we can't
do that because someone's civil rights would be violated or a far-fetched,
ridiculous sex harassment charge would be brought forth.

I also believe teachers are at the whim of the Dept of Ed. and the NEA
when it comes to teaching. Trying to create a level playing field for
all schools has backfired and only shoved what's good for LA and it's
diverse population onto North Dakota's non-diverse population. The
basics of reading, writing and arithmetic should be the watchword.
Teach kids how to think not what to think. Give them the tools to
go out and make their own decisions. They certainly have some tough
ones coming up the ways things are going politically.
 

Mr. D

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XShipRider,

Well your response to my post doesn't sound like the same person who wrote the earlier post! I agree with much of what you said! Sorry if I assumed too much!

I don't understand where you get the idea the NEA has much to say about sex education in a local school district! The biggest force in controlling attitudes is still local boards of education and local pressure groups. Teaching about STD's etc is the right thing to do, but it can't combat a lack of judgement, poor values and lack of parenting. Our major problem is our culture! Our schools reflect our culture, they don't create it! Look what crap is on TV! When the Oscar Awards Ok'd using "bitches and Ho's" in a ganster rap song where are we? Now, will Americans boycott the program or sell out and acccept that level of language as normal? How about the personality traits of the wonderful role model contestants on Survivor? Backbiting immature liars and social climbers exhalted by our TV audience! That's what are TV audiences want! The U.S. has an enemy that is destroying us, and it is us! We're just blaming our schools in our own denial about our decline! I have nothing to do with the Christian right and believe everyone should do their own thing, but "doing your own thing" doesn't mean being ignorant and having no standards! I live by my own standards, but don't inflict them on others by playing the music in my car so it can be heard four blocks away and having my pants below my butt, my hat on sideways, and a baby out of wedlock at 28 yrs old! Those selfish, ignorant 28 year olds are somebody's adult child! Their parents probably blamed their problems on the schools!

Al Quaida isn't our biggest enemy! It's us!

So, what happen to the Roman Empire again? :bomb:
 
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XShipRider

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Mr. D said:
XShipRider,

Well your response to my post doesn't sound like the same person who wrote the earlier post! I agree with much of what you said! Sorry if I assumed too much!

I don't understand where you get the idea the NEA has much to say about sex education in a local school district! The biggest force in controlling attitudes is still local boards of education and local pressure groups. Teaching about STD's etc is the right thing to do, but it can't combat a lack of judgement, poor values and lack of parenting. Our major problem is our culture! Our schools reflect our culture, they don't create it! Look what crap is on TV! When the Oscar Awards Ok'd using "bitches and Ho's" in a ganster rap song where are we? Now, will Americans boycott the program or sell out and acccept that level of language as normal? How about the personality traits of the wonderful role model contestants on Survivor? Backbiting immature liars and social climbers exhalted by our TV audience! That's what are TV audiences want! The U.S. has an enemy that is destroying us, and it is us! We're just blaming our schools in our own denial about our decline! I have nothing to do with the Christian right and believe everyone should do their own thing, but "doing your own thing" doesn't mean being ignorant and having no standards! I live by my own standards, but don't inflict them on others by playing the music in my car so it can be heard four blocks away and having my pants below my butt, my hat on sideways, and a baby out of wedlock at 28 yrs old! Those selfish, ignorant 28 year olds are somebody's adult child! Their parents probably blamed their problems on the schools!

Al Quaida isn't our biggest enemy! It's us!

So, what happen to the Roman Empire again? :bomb:

We may disagree on some points and agree on others. Looking back
at my prior post(s) it wouldn't be a stretch on your part to make
some assumptions.

I think the NEA does have a strong lobby which, in turn, trickles
down to the local school systems. That said, do they control the
school system? Not directly.

I do think the local board has to rubber stamp some curriculum according
to national standards. Standards brought forth by lobbying efforts of
the NEA and teachers' unions (both very strong entities unto themselves).

Am I against teachers? Absolutely not. I think they have one of the
toughest jobs, next to parenting, on the planet. Should they make
good money? Yep. Should they be able to teach the subject according
to their own style and personality? Certainly. Should they have to
hold teaching certificates? What does that prove? What did it
ever prove?

Some of my best teachers were 50+ years old, held simple BA or BS
degrees, didn't hold what would now be termed credentials and could
hold your attention for the entire 55 minutes you sat in their class
every single day. They had two things different than some of today's
teachers ... a love of teaching ... AND ... full and unwavering support
from the homefront (read: parents!). Did they choose the job because they
knew they'd have to work only 10 months a year? Pure fallacy as most
teachers start their work year long before any students report for their
first day of any given year. See, the one thing people forget is the long
nights teachers used to put in grading papers (they may still, I don't know),
the unworking summer developing the next year's daily curriculum,
creating quizzes and tests for that curriculum and getting their classrooms
ready (those little apples and times tables didn't staple themselves to the
wall!). This more than makes up for any perceived time off over the summers.

I wandered a bit above but the gist of it is this -- the local board hand-in-
hand with parents and teachers need to control local curriculum and policy.
The federal government needs to butt out! I firmly believe upstate Oregon
can determine what's best for upstate Oregon without having ANY
national curricula mandated.
 

Mr. D

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XShipRider said:
I wandered a bit above but the gist of it is this -- the local board hand-in-
hand with parents and teachers need to control local curriculum and policy.
The federal government needs to butt out! I firmly believe upstate Oregon
can determine what's best for upstate Oregon without having ANY
national curricula mandated.
I'm starting to like you! I don't know what upstate Oregon does with its schools, but many states and school districts did such narrowminded and bigoted things that the Federal government had to step in. We need some federal standards particularly when federal funds are involved. You may not agree, but I don't believe parents should have the right to indoctrinate their children. It's wrong with Hitler's youth and the Taliban, and it's wrong when we do it! Much of what is called "local control" is about keeping out ideas that conflict with which parents disagree. Of course whatever is taught must be age appropriate and done with parental envolvement. The important thing is to keep our school systems from indoctrinating, but rather teaching critical thinking skills so we have a country of individuals able to determine right from wrong, fact from myth. "The truth will sent you free!" So why do we protect our children from it and then wonder why we lose their trust when they get older? Prejudice comes from protecting children from the truth! Haven't we seen enough countries that indoctrinated their children march them to wars of which they had no understanding? Ask a 19 year old boy walking into a recruiting station to explain why he needs to risk his life in Iraq. In most cases you will give vague, confused, patriotic generalities he doesn't understand himself. When you are asked to risk losing your life, you should clearly understand why! Young men did, at least to a greater degree in WW II! Ask the average American what Baghdad was like before Saddam? What is a Persian? What did Osama Bin Ladin say his goals were? What is his strategy? Are we operating against his strategy, or playing right into it? Did we know what we are getting into? Can such things be discussed in a public school, or will parents say no?

Good discussing with you!
 
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alphieb

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Most parents don't want to be involved until they dissagree and want someone fired! Go to a local Board of Ed. meeting when no hot topic is involved! I taught in a district with 1500 teachers and often there would be hand full of parents! Of course some came every single meeting with a angry anti public school conspiracy complaint! Most are home watching "Survivor-back biting jerks in Pupu Tata".

If parents are so anti public schools, why don't they send their kids to a private school? If they cannot afford it that is understandable, but problems need to be addressed at home, first and foremost. By the same token, I know from experience that there are some lousey teachers out there. The parents have a right to complain about that. The fact that they are complaining is indicative that they care and are concerned parents.
 

goligoth

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alphieb said:
Most parents don't want to be involved until they dissagree and want someone fired! Go to a local Board of Ed. meeting when no hot topic is involved! I taught in a district with 1500 teachers and often there would be hand full of parents! Of course some came every single meeting with a angry anti public school conspiracy complaint! Most are home watching "Survivor-back biting jerks in Pupu Tata".

If parents are so anti public schools, why don't they send their kids to a private school? If they cannot afford it that is understandable, but problems need to be addressed at home, first and foremost. By the same token, I know from experience that there are some lousey teachers out there. The parents have a right to complain about that. The fact that they are complaining is indicative that they care and are concerned parents.
you don't like Survivor????woah......
 

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Mr. D said:
I'm starting to like you! I don't know what upstate Oregon does with its schools, but many states and school districts did such narrowminded and bigoted things that the Federal government had to step in. We need some federal standards particularly when federal funds are involved. You may not agree, but I don't believe parents should have the right to indoctrinate their children. It's wrong with Hitler's youth and the Taliban, and it's wrong when we do it! Much of what is called "local control" is about keeping out ideas that conflict with which parents disagree. Of course whatever is taught must be age appropriate and done with parental envolvement. The important thing is to keep our school systems from indoctrinating, but rather teaching critical thinking skills so we have a country of individuals able to determine right from wrong, fact from myth. "The truth will sent you free!" So why do we protect our children from it and then wonder why we lose their trust when they get older? Prejudice comes from protecting children from the truth! Haven't we seen enough countries that indoctrinated their children march them to wars of which they had no understanding? Ask a 19 year old boy walking into a recruiting station to explain why he needs to risk his life in Iraq. In most cases you will give vague, confused, patriotic generalities he doesn't understand himself. When you are asked to risk losing your life, you should clearly understand why! Young men did, at least to a greater degree in WW II! Ask the average American what Baghdad was like before Saddam? What is a Persian? What did Osama Bin Ladin say his goals were? What is his strategy? Are we operating against his strategy, or playing right into it? Did we know what we are getting into? Can such things be discussed in a public school, or will parents say no?

Good discussing with you!
The indoctrination isnt coming from parents.Its coming from left wing educational establishment. Local control is a must I dont want the federaL govt. running the schools.
Parents don't pay enouh attention to what their kids are beiung taught by the liberal secuarists that control public education in many areas.
 

Stace

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JOHNYJ said:
The indoctrination isnt coming from parents.Its coming from left wing educational establishment. Local control is a must I dont want the federaL govt. running the schools.
Parents don't pay enouh attention to what their kids are beiung taught by the liberal secuarists that control public education in many areas.
If you have such a problem with the "liberal" school systems, why don't you home school your kids? There is nothing wrong with schools being secular - religion is something that belongs at home and in church, not in school, unless you want to pay for a private religious school.
 

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Stace said:
If you have such a problem with the "liberal" school systems, why don't you home school your kids? There is nothing wrong with schools being secular - religion is something that belongs at home and in church, not in school, unless you want to pay for a private religious school.
When I was young,long ago. I use to hear that the Parochial schools were going to disappear and that public schools were going to be be so great that not even Catholics would send their kids to parochial schools instead of public.
Well the parochial schools are still here.
Tax payers are paying high taxes to run the public schools and they stink. Fear is keeping the parochial schools going,fear of the public schools.
I have a public high schoolo near me .Its in an upper middle class mostly white town.It has a theatre, even a TV station.
It also has metal detectors, armed guards, and local police patroling it.
There is a Catholic girls high school in an ajoining town. It doesn't have a theatre or a tv station or well paid teachers. Its mostly minorirty and mostly None Catholic. It also doesn't have metal detectors or armed guards or local police patroling it. I geuss God and morality make a diference in schools.
 

Stace

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JOHNYJ said:
When I was young,long ago. I use to hear that the Parochial schools were going to disappear and that public schools were going to be be so great that not even Catholics would send their kids to parochial schools instead of public.
Well the parochial schools are still here.
Tax payers are paying high taxes to run the public schools and they stink. Fear is keeping the parochial schools going,fear of the public schools.
I have a public high schoolo near me .Its in an upper middle class mostly white town.It has a theatre, even a TV station.
It also has metal detectors, armed guards, and local police patroling it.
There is a Catholic girls high school in an ajoining town. It doesn't have a theatre or a tv station or well paid teachers. Its mostly minorirty and mostly None Catholic. It also doesn't have metal detectors or armed guards or local police patroling it. I geuss God and morality make a diference in schools.
Not necessarily. The high school I attended was mostly upper middle class, in a predominantly white town, but we certainly didn't have any metal detectors, though we did have a campus cop to deal with minor problems, such as kids bringing drugs to school. We had more problems with the private school (Catholic) kids harassing the public school kids, though most parents chose to send their kids to the public school once they entered high school because the public school was far superior.
 

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Stace said:
Not necessarily. The high school I attended was mostly upper middle class, in a predominantly white town, but we certainly didn't have any metal detectors, though we did have a campus cop to deal with minor problems, such as kids bringing drugs to school. We had more problems with the private school (Catholic) kids harassing the public school kids, though most parents chose to send their kids to the public school once they entered high school because the public school was far superior.

***Public school was far superior? Wow, that's the first time I ever heard that. And Catholic kids harrassing public school kids? Where on earth is this happening? The fact that Catholic kids attend a much stricter school system, and they have more commited teachers, with a higher level of curriculum, and a higher level of intelligence upon graduation than their public school counterparts makes me want to believe that your statements are simply untrue.
 

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ptsdkid said:
***Public school was far superior? Wow, that's the first time I ever heard that. And Catholic kids harrassing public school kids? Where on earth is this happening? The fact that Catholic kids attend a much stricter school system, and they have more commited teachers, with a higher level of curriculum, and a higher level of intelligence upon graduation than their public school counterparts makes me want to believe that your statements are simply untrue.
Believe what you want, but I'm the one that lived there, and I'm the one that went to school there, so logic says that I know more about the situation than you. My teachers were extremely dedicated to their jobs, and there wasn't a single kid in my class that didn't graduate on time. Our curriculum was quite advanced, in fact, when we first moved to Minnesota from South Carolina, some of my stepfather's co workers told him I might need a tutor to get caught up to the other kids...but I'd been in accelarated classes and gifted programs since I was in elementary school, so I was actually ahead of them in some subjects. Regardless, not every school in the country is the same. Just because SOME areas have better Catholic schools than public schools doesn't mean they ALL do.
 

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JOHNYJ said:
The indoctrination isnt coming from parents.Its coming from left wing educational establishment. Local control is a must I dont want the federaL govt. running the schools.
Parents don't pay enouh attention to what their kids are beiung taught by the liberal secuarists that control public education in many areas.
You can always tell a person that knows nothing about the public school educational community when they start calling them left wingers! The vast majority of public school teachers are moderate to conservative Christians. That's why you hear complaints when NEA or local unions support liberals who strongly support education and teachers, but not other conservative policies. As being involved with the issue it was always a problem for me to convince teachers to vote for educations best political friends if they weren't known as conservatives!

Certainly we don't want secular teaching of math and science when we could have Christian Mulahs pushing religion with mutiplication!
 
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Vandeervecken

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LOL, where I grew up the only thing the Catholic school was good for was to find easy girls.
 

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Vandeervecken said:
LOL, where I grew up the only thing the Catholic school was good for was to find easy girls.
In the late 50's the girls from "girls only" Catholic high schools would go looking for what was missing at their schools! Girls will be girls! Just like putting kids in private schools to keep them away from the world! :lol:
 

BodiSatva

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Posted by ptsdkid

The fact that Catholic kids attend a much stricter school system, and they have more commited teachers
The teachers are more committed? Really?
This should be the moment when wisdom *please please let there be some* shines through and the realization that ridiculous assumptions such as these cease.

I have worked in both settings and the more passionate and committed teachers, in my opinion, were the public school teachers.

Posted by ptsdkid

a higher level of intelligence upon graduation
Higher level of intelligence? Do you mean greater knowledge base? A person's intelligence is innate. Knowledge can be learned though.

Did you attend public school? ;)
Haha!
 

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I've changed my view a bit about public schools.


There are 3 things I think a school should have/do


1. Toughen up the courses a slight notch.


2. Get more control over their cirrculum and class

3. Talk to business leaders and colleges to see what they should be teaching so when you are shipped off to college, people actually have a good idea of what they should be looking for and what they should do to get into a certain field.
 

Stace

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BodiSatva said:
Mandatory Parenting classes for all parents...period.

And that's going to accomplish....what, exactly? If you can't make certain kids learn, how are you going to make the adults learn anything? Kids are much more impressionable than their parents. Besides, you can't teach someone how to be a parent. Oh sure, there are basic things, but things like discipline and such, there's no one set method that works for EVERYONE. Parenting is not a one size fits all thing.
 

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It will accomplish a lot...that should be obvious, any parent that understands the nuances of parenting understands that this issue is extremely complex.

Every parent can learn something that will benefit them and their child...and who said anything about a one size fits all class? Teachers teach...they don't dictate.

And yes, discipline...a skill that most parents that I encounter lack. It permeates society...from TV to candy to sodas to poor grades...poor parents pass on a certain aspect regarding "Take no responsibiltiy" and it is pathetic.

And the idea of a parenting class was a joke...for it would never work. People do not want to face massive issues, and being a parent would seem so daunting that the parents to be probably can not even begin to understand how hard it will be. There are so many screwed up relationships and people that do not heal themselves and their feeble issues. Anyway...whatever...

Mandatory Parenting Class 101: Starts Tuesday

Paid for by all non-parents as a result of their selfishness to not populate the species and indulge in their own whims.
 

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Two things:

>Why public schools (many) are 'bad'?: Stop and ask yourself - why are public school's funded almost exclusively by property taxes? How does this play a role in segregating communities, and why are schools themselves more segregated now than in the pre-civil rights era (see J. Kozol article "Apartheid in Education" in Harper's)?

>I live in NYC, a city with some of the most racially homogeneous schools in America, schools that are 99% Black & Latino and criminally underfunded due to their reliance on property taxes. Now obviously, if [you] live in a more affluent neighborhood like Tribeca or the Upper East Side, [your] child will have access to a much better education than a child who lives in Washington Heights, where history classes have textbooks that don't tell how the the Vietnam War panned out. This is a gross example of the systematic forms of racism that promote inequality and second-class citizenship in what is often inaccurately described as a 'salad-bowl city', or 'the melting-pot'. Short of a new economy, we need a complete restructuring of of the qualitative analysis which is used to determine the relative disparities between one school (or system) and another.

There are some very fundamental questions that we should be raising in order to draw out what's really going on here.
 

BodiSatva

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Yes, the politics associated wtih the monster machine of public education is just another sign of the ineffeciency of the political machine in general.
 
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