Why public schools are bad

[The Real McCoy]

WTF? Kelzie was right; it doesn't matter who wrote the piece of crap, it's a piece of crap. NCLB is a liberal idea, promoted by liberals, and enacted by a conservative president. It was gutted, since it has neither power to effect change, nor funding to promote it; all it has is the ability to make schools look bad, and politicians look good -- except that now that we know how dumb it is, they look bad for writing and enacting it. NCLB is truly a non-partisan issue: it makes everyody look bad.

Whoa.. take it easy. I was only responding to hipsterdufus tagging the blame on to the neo-cons.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Anyone watch tonight's (Friday Jan 13) episode of of 20/20 by John Stossel "Stupid in America."'

I AM SO GLAD SOMETHING LIKE THAT MADE MAIN STREAM MEDIA.

Attach the money to the students, period. NOT to the teachers, NOT to the school, TO THE STUDENT.

 

[doughgirl]

Kelzie said in which I totally agree….”Don't even get me started on sports. I don't know whose bright idea it was to combine school and sports, but I think they need to create two tuitions. One for people that care about our sports teams, and one for those who don't. Then the 5 MILLION DOLLARS CU just gave to the football coach to fire him could be on someone else's bill.

Mr.D said,” Funny how well Asian American immigrant's children do it our failing schools! What's pathetic is blaming our schools for the values of our children! That's why all the pressure on schools isn't making big gains! Little Johnny is listening to ganster rap while Mom is blaming his school! Denial ain't just a river in Eygpt!”

Asian American kids do better because they value education in the home. Culturally they value education more and usually parents in these home push education. They make it their top priority. It comes before sports and extra-curricular activities. These kids if they participate in anything it's music. And it has been proven that kids that take music lessons do better in school.

Our schools do not teach morals and values anymore. The “Left” has made sure of that. A teacher can hardly discipline anymore. Their hands are tied.

I see that you are in your sixties, I just turned 50. I do not believe schools are better today. I don’t see how you can say that. Kids do not respect authority like we did.

The Real McCoy said, “And what's wrong with high school sports? They promote exercise, dedication, competition and teamwork... all are important values in the adult world. Granted, many schools treat their athletes with different standards but I think the pros far outweigh the cons.”

Sports do promote these but sometimes at the expense of other programs. And recognition…..How many award banquets do we have that honor the smart kids……..”
Do they give "letters" for being a good student? How about letters for being an outstanding musician? Athletes are treated better and get more privileges. I know both my kids excelled in athletics.

Hipsterdufus said, “In it's present form - the neo-con men are using NCLB to:

1. Dismantle public schools and privatize education to for profit companies like Edison.
2. Dismantle the NEA/AFT (too liberal for the neo-conmen)
3. Support vouchers
4. Promote religious education
5. Generally dumb down the nation - the dumber the better!”

1. What is wrong with private education?
2. The NEA is not for bettering education. Its all about job security to them.

Did you watch 20/20 tonight about American Schools? Did you hear the comments from the leaders of the NEA. One said, “there is no such thing as a bad teacher.”

3. What is so wrong with vouchers? What is wrong with a little competition? The democrats are pro-choice about everything, why not education? I’ll tell you why. Because the public schools are the biggest place to brainwash children to believe a certain way. And if vouchers were the norm this would be impossible to do.
4. Parents should be allowed to send their children where they wish. They should not be forced to send their children to failing schools.

LIBERTARIAN….I watched 20/20 tonight. Although I agreed with most of what was said, I do believe a lot of blame is with the parents. As a society we do not value education any longer. In other countries, education is valued above most other things. Compare education in the United States to other countries. We don’t rate.

In other countries kids take 4 years of biology and chemisty and languages, math………what do they take in the U.S? How many kids graduate and are bi-lingual?

We need to raise our standards and we can only do this if parents start putting education first. You can dump all the amount of money in the world in schools and if parents are not there to guide and INFORCE homework and studying…….the bar will not be raised.

My friend is a teacher……..she told me the past few years at conferences she had 25% attendance from parents….that is pathetic.

I think modern educators do not share the values of previous generations, and some of those changed values have a direct bearing on education. I feel parents do not share the values of a previous generation and it shows.

Education is important, and we all need to work together to make it successful. We all need to do our part.

Funny the other day....at work we were listening to this radio station. Every few hours they play the Star Spangled Banner. (without the words) I happen to hear this kid sing what he thought were the words.
I just about died. I could not believe my ears. I was curious as to how many kids knew the words. I gave them each paper and pen and asked them to write the words out. I would treat the ones who got all the words correct to lunch.
NOT ONE GOT THEM ALL RIGHT. NOT ONE OUT OF SEVEN KIDS.
Many of these kids are in honor classes, so they say. I find this sad.

 

[Stace]

Our schools do not teach morals and values anymore. The “Left” has made sure of that. A teacher can hardly discipline anymore. Their hands are tied.

It isn't the school's job to teach "morals and values". It is their job to teach reading, writing, math, history, science, etc. Morals and values are for the parents and the church (if the family attends) to teach.

I see that you are in your sixties, I just turned 50. I do not believe schools are better today. I don’t see how you can say that. Kids do not respect authority like we did.

Because parents are not as involved, though it is not completely their fault....my mom didn't have the time to be as involved in my education as she would have liked, as she worked multiple jobs, but I wanted an education and so I sat there and learned rather than goofing off like my classmates. Kids aren't stupid, if they want to learn, they will.

Sports do promote these but sometimes at the expense of other programs. And recognition…..How many award banquets do we have that honor the smart kids……..”

My school had quite a few, actually.

Do they give "letters" for being a good student? How about letters for being an outstanding musician? Athletes are treated better and get more privileges. I know both my kids excelled in athletics.

Not sure about the letters for "being a good student", but band and chorus earned letters in my high school.

1. What is wrong with private education?

Nothing, necessarily, if you can afford it. Most people can't.

3. What is so wrong with vouchers? What is wrong with a little competition? The democrats are pro-choice about everything, why not education? I’ll tell you why. Because the public schools are the biggest place to brainwash children to believe a certain way. And if vouchers were the norm this would be impossible to do.

WRONG. The problem with vouchers? There's a little clause in there that they can only be used for religious schools. Many parents do not want to send their kids to religious schools; I certainly wouldn't. I'd homeschool my child before I did that, because religion in any way, shape, or form belongs at home and at church, NOT at school. And your little blanket statement about Democrats? You couldn't be more wrong there. I'm not even going to TRY and explain it to you though, because I'm fairly certain it won't do any good.

4. Parents should be allowed to send their children where they wish. They should not be forced to send their children to failing schools.

They're not forced to do anything. If they have the money, they can send their kids to private school. Some private schools even have scholarships. Homeschooling is an option. There are alternative schools that aren't just for the "bad" kids. They could move to a better school district. There's plenty of options.

In other countries kids take 4 years of biology and chemisty and languages, math………what do they take in the U.S? How many kids graduate and are bi-lingual?

Why should kids be forced to take courses that they're not going to use later on? Even when I went to Mexico on vacation, I didn't need to speak Spanish. I have neighbors from the Middle East...should I learn to speak Arabic? I don't think so. Just like I will never use any science beyond the basics, I will never use any math even close to as highly as I did take it, which would be Algebra II/Trigonometry.

We need to raise our standards and we can only do this if parents start putting education first. You can dump all the amount of money in the world in schools and if parents are not there to guide and INFORCE homework and studying…….the bar will not be raised.

Most parents see school as a cheap alternative to daycare.

But it's still not entirely the fault of the parents. The kid has to want to learn for themself, not to make mom and dad happy. My mom didn't enforce very many rules upon me, but I did my work because I WANTED to.

My friend is a teacher……..she told me the past few years at conferences she had 25% attendance from parents….that is pathetic.

Not necessarily. My mom couldn't attend most of my conferences because she was usually at work. Not all parents are deadbeats.

I think modern educators do not share the values of previous generations, and some of those changed values have a direct bearing on education. I feel parents do not share the values of a previous generation and it shows.

And these previous generations? Don't share the values of the generations before them. Times change, values and such evolve. That's no reason to look down upon this current generation.

Education is important, and we all need to work together to make it successful. We all need to do our part.

At least that's one thing we can agree on.

Funny the other day....at work we were listening to this radio station. Every few hours they play the Star Spangled Banner. (without the words) I happen to hear this kid sing what he thought were the words.
I just about died. I could not believe my ears. I was curious as to how many kids knew the words. I gave them each paper and pen and asked them to write the words out. I would treat the ones who got all the words correct to lunch.
NOT ONE GOT THEM ALL RIGHT. NOT ONE OUT OF SEVEN KIDS.
Many of these kids are in honor classes, so they say. I find this sad.

Sad, maybe, but not a travesty.....knowing the Star Spangled Banner isn't a requirement for graduation. Some people just don't feel enough patriotic pride to teach it to their kids. :shrug:

 

[libertarian_knight]

LIBERTARIAN….I watched 20/20 tonight. Although I agreed with most of what was said, I do believe a lot of blame is with the parents. As a society we do not value education any longer. In other countries, education is valued above most other things. Compare education in the United States to other countries. We don’t rate.

In other countries kids take 4 years of biology and chemisty and languages, math………what do they take in the U.S? How many kids graduate and are bi-lingual?

We need to raise our standards and we can only do this if parents start putting education first. You can dump all the amount of money in the world in schools and if parents are not there to guide and INFORCE homework and studying…….the bar will not be raised.

My friend is a teacher……..she told me the past few years at conferences she had 25% attendance from parents….that is pathetic.

I think modern educators do not share the values of previous generations, and some of those changed values have a direct bearing on education. I feel parents do not share the values of a previous generation and it shows.

Education is important, and we all need to work together to make it successful. We all need to do our part.

Funny the other day....at work we were listening to this radio station. Every few hours they play the Star Spangled Banner. (without the words) I happen to hear this kid sing what he thought were the words.
I just about died. I could not believe my ears. I was curious as to how many kids knew the words. I gave them each paper and pen and asked them to write the words out. I would treat the ones who got all the words correct to lunch.
NOT ONE GOT THEM ALL RIGHT. NOT ONE OUT OF SEVEN KIDS.
Many of these kids are in honor classes, so they say. I find this sad.

I agree, in part the parents are somewhat to blame. However, the Public Education system ALIENATES Parents for one. For a second, and more important reason, Parents are not education specialists, teachers are.

It's irrational in this day and age to demand that a parent farm weave and sew their own children's clothing, grow all their food, or most of it, or hell, even part of it. WE HAVE SPECIALISTS FOR THAT, the Textile industries, the Agricultural industries, etc etc etc. Parents are not teachers, they are not specialized professionals trained in the skill and practice of education.

I was good freinds with our highschool valedictorian. Her parents were abusive toward her and her brothers' education. I would hear some horror stories. And you all may say, she was valedicotrian, obviously it worked for her. No it didn't. She was killed in a car accident one week before graduation, buying supplies for college.

I also know a lot of REALLY *****ING STUPID asian kids too.

Parents can only do so much, some of the time. Most parents don't know how to be teachers, if they did, there would be no need for public schools in the first place. Yes parents should be more involved, but their ideas and complaints fall on deaf ears, becuase they have NO POWER over the education system. Most poeple are too poor, too ignorant, or too unskilled to make use of alternatives, anyway. So, we have hired specialists.

 

[Kelzie]

I agree, in part the parents are somewhat to blame. However, the Public Education system ALIENATES Parents for one. For a second, and more important reason, Parents are not education specialists, teachers are.

How in the world does public education alienate parents?

It's irrational in this day and age to demand that a parent farm weave and sew their own children's clothing, grow all their food, or most of it, or hell, even part of it. WE HAVE SPECIALISTS FOR THAT, the Textile industries, the Agricultural industries, etc etc etc. Parents are not teachers, they are not specialized professionals trained in the skill and practice of education.

Okaayyyy....still nothing about this supposed "alienation" of parents.

I was good freinds with our highschool valedictorian. Her parents were abusive toward her and her brothers' education. I would hear some horror stories. And you all may say, she was valedicotrian, obviously it worked for her. No it didn't. She was killed in a car accident one week before graduation, buying supplies for college.

Um. Yeah, it did work. The car accident had absolutely nothing to do with her school performance.

I also know a lot of REALLY *****ING STUPID asian kids too.

Congrats. Not really the point and kind of rude to boot.

Parents can only do so much, some of the time. Most parents don't know how to be teachers, if they did, there would be no need for public schools in the first place. Yes parents should be more involved, but their ideas and complaints fall on deaf ears, becuase they have NO POWER over the education system. Most poeple are too poor, too ignorant, or too unskilled to make use of alternatives, anyway. So, we have hired specialists.

You are extremely wrong in this. It's called PTA. It's created for the sole purpose of giving parents influence on their childrens school. And it works. My little brother and sister's school runs like a private school because of the parents. They have an hour of homework everyday in elementary school. The parents refused to buy the books the county wanted, so the school uses different ones. Nobody is suggesting that parents spend eight hours a day involved in their child's education. We are suggesting installing a good work ethic in the kid and providing support.

 

[hipsterdufus]

Asian American kids do better because they value education in the home. Culturally they value education more and usually parents in these home push education. They make it their top priority. It comes before sports and extra-curricular activities. These kids if they participate in anything it's music. And it has been proven that kids that take music lessons do better in school.

Our schools do not teach morals and values anymore. The “Left” has made sure of that. A teacher can hardly discipline anymore. Their hands are tied.

So you're in favor of corporal punishment in the classroom? Not only is paddling an inefective form of discipline, it teaches that violence is the way to solve problems. I disagree.

Also - would you mind your taxes being used to pay the medical bills and lawsuits students that get the crap beat out of them in a school?

Sports do promote these but sometimes at the expense of other programs. And recognition…..How many award banquets do we have that honor the smart kids……..”

My school has many more ceremonies that honor academic achievement.

Do they give "letters" for being a good student? How about letters for being an outstanding musician? Athletes are treated better and get more privileges. I know both my kids excelled in athletics.

I agree.

1. What is wrong with private education?
2. The NEA is not for bettering education. Its all about job security to them.

There is nothing wrong with private education. For 16K-20 K a year (per child)you can get a great education.

Where is your data about the NEA being all about job security? BTW - I am not a member of the NEA or the AFT. I get a one year contract every year, just like Tommy Lasorda.

Did you watch 20/20 tonight about American Schools? Did you hear the comments from the leaders of the NEA. One said, “there is no such thing as a bad teacher.”

Sorry I missed the program. What was the context?
I don't even like the term "teacher" I prefer educator.

3. What is so wrong with vouchers? What is wrong with a little competition? The democrats are pro-choice about everything, why not education? I’ll tell you why. Because the public schools are the biggest place to brainwash children to believe a certain way. And if vouchers were the norm this would be impossible to do.

Vouchers aren't going to get you in the door at my school. Again it's 16K a year. You might be able to get into a religious school. I worked at many religious schools in the past and found them to be spotty at best. The educators often don't have degrees in education. For instance, many nuns know absolutely nothing about pedagogy.

Taking funds away from underfunded schools only makes the situation worse.

4. Parents should be allowed to send their children where they wish. They should not be forced to send their children to failing schools.

I agree. My neighborhood school is terrible and all of the community work done by concerned parents and school board members has done nothing to improve it. But any resident has the option of sending their children to some excellent magnet schools. The different magnet schools pick a specialty. Some are world languages magnets, some are arts magnets, some are science magnets etc.

In other countries kids take 4 years of biology and chemisty and languages, math………what do they take in the U.S? How many kids graduate and are bi-lingual?

Agreed. The time to start language is Pre-K! Not 7th or 8th grade. By then the synapses have closed.

Funny the other day....at work we were listening to this radio station. Every few hours they play the Star Spangled Banner. (without the words) I happen to hear this kid sing what he thought were the words.
I just about died. I could not believe my ears. I was curious as to how many kids knew the words. I gave them each paper and pen and asked them to write the words out. I would treat the ones who got all the words correct to lunch.
NOT ONE GOT THEM ALL RIGHT. NOT ONE OUT OF SEVEN KIDS.
Many of these kids are in honor classes, so they say. I find this sad.

I am a music educator. For the past 3 years, my professional organization has been addressing that problem with a country-wide "National Anthem Project" Every school is encouraged to learn and sing the National Anthem at a specific date and time.

For the record - The Star Spangled Banner is a terrible song to try to teach young children. The vocal range is WAY too big for most elementary students, and even many adults, to sing. If I had my choice I would change the National Anthem to "America The Beautiful" or "America" (My Country 'Tis of Thee)

 

[Engimo]

I think a big thing that proponents of the voucher system fail to understand is that school taxes are not "tuition" for their children to attend a public school. Think about it: Even if you do not have children, you must pay school taxes. Why is this? Because when you pay school taxes, you're not paying for your child to go to school, you're paying for a public service - something to benefit the community as a whole. The idea that parents are entitled to choose how their school taxes are spent is unfounded in what the very idea of the school tax is for. Should people, if they do not like the park system, be able to get "park vouchers" to landscape their own yards? No, because parks are there to provide something for the community as a whole.

Combine it with the fact that having vouchers represents a de facto endorsement of religion by our government, and the case for them falls apart rather quickly. The best thing we could do is reform our public schools, not eliminate them entirely.

 

[libertarian_knight]

How in the world does public education alienate parents?

Okaayyyy....still nothing about this supposed "alienation" of parents.

Um. Yeah, it did work. The car accident had absolutely nothing to do with her school performance.

Congrats. Not really the point and kind of rude to boot.

You are extremely wrong in this. It's called PTA. It's created for the sole purpose of giving parents influence on their childrens school. And it works. My little brother and sister's school runs like a private school because of the parents. They have an hour of homework everyday in elementary school. The parents refused to buy the books the county wanted, so the school uses different ones. Nobody is suggesting that parents spend eight hours a day involved in their child's education. We are suggesting installing a good work ethic in the kid and providing support.

Public schools, really have little need, other than political need, to be responsive to parents. It's not like most parents can afford to send their kids elsewhere or pay for private schools. Therefor, schools "may take into consideration" some of the views, but they are under no obligation to adopt them, even if they are better ideas.

In addition to political pressure, financial pressure is an added benefit to parents. Parents should have the power, not school boards.

You tell me, if our public schools outperform other developed countries in the lower grades, why do public school slide after 4th grade?

And why, between PISA 2000 and PISA 2003 why are so many other countries improving, especially most developed countried, but the US remaining the same?

We need to do more.

 

[libertarian_knight]

I think a big thing that proponents of the voucher system fail to understand is that school taxes are not "tuition" for their children to attend a public school. Think about it: Even if you do not have children, you must pay school taxes. Why is this? Because when you pay school taxes, you're not paying for your child to go to school, you're paying for a public service - something to benefit the community as a whole. The idea that parents are entitled to choose how their school taxes are spent is unfounded in what the very idea of the school tax is for. Should people, if they do not like the park system, be able to get "park vouchers" to landscape their own yards? No, because parks are there to provide something for the community as a whole.

Combine it with the fact that having vouchers represents a de facto endorsement of religion by our government, and the case for them falls apart rather quickly. The best thing we could do is reform our public schools, not eliminate them entirely.

so? becuase taxes are not used as a means of tuition, does not mean they can not be.

I am sure most would agree school taxes are not for nice couches, new carpets and desks for principles and administrators.

Most poeple say school taxes are for all the things necessary for educating kids. The problem is there is so much corruption and waste on the part of unions, administrators and public officals that money is being spent on things that either don't promote education or better education, or it's being spent on lower priority items, like new buildings for administrators, instead of say, actually buildings for students.

Charter schools, also, ARE public schools, and generally not religious instruction.

Money has been going up and up and up and up, and performace is going down, or is flat.

The religious right latched onto vouchers as a way to fund religious education, but it's not their idea.

Allow parents some choice, if not even complete choice. Other than "move if you don't like the schools."
Allow for alternatives to the one-size fits all mentality of public education.
Allow competition to prune the wasteful, excessive, inept, and underperforming parts of our system. We'll make sure kids still get educated.

As far as the parks go, since when have all parks been run by uniform rules to look the same, use the same trees, etc, as school do. EVEN IN PUBLIC PARKS THERE IS MORE CHOICE THAN THERE IS IN EDUCATION!

 

[Engimo]

Charter schools, also, ARE public schools, and generally not religious instruction.

I support charter schools, but they are not privatized. They're still funded by the government, they just have exclusive admittance.

Money has been going up and up and up and up, and performace is going down, or is flat.

The religious right latched onto vouchers as a way to fund religious education, but it's not their idea.

it doesn't matter whose idea it is, vouchers would create a funding of religious schools by the federal government. Not good.

Allow parents some choice, if not even complete choice. Other than "move if you don't like the schools."
Allow for alternatives to the one-size fits all mentality of public education.
Allow competition to prune the wasteful, excessive, inept, and underperforming parts of our system. We'll make sure kids still get educated.

Quite frankly, I don't trust the free market with the education of our children - easily one of the most important things that our government does. Perhaps some flexibility and choice could be allowed within the public school system, but privatization is simply asking for abuse (and is unconstitutional).

As far as the parks go, since when have all parks been run by uniform rules to look the same, use the same trees, etc, as school do. EVEN IN PUBLIC PARKS THERE IS MORE CHOICE THAN THERE IS IN EDUCATION!

You're right, and I think we seem to both be agreeing on a reform of the public school system. I do not think this requires privatization, though. The fundamental idea of the public school system is still a good one, even if it is currently failing us.

 

[Kelzie]

Public schools, really have little need, other than political need, to be responsive to parents. It's not like most parents can afford to send their kids elsewhere or pay for private schools. Therefor, schools "may take into consideration" some of the views, but they are under no obligation to adopt them, even if they are better ideas.

And yet it doesn't work that way. Believe it or not, public schools actually care about what's in the best interest of the child. And parents and the school system working together can figure it out a lot better then just the school. Which is why public schools do listen to parents.

In addition to political pressure, financial pressure is an added benefit to parents. Parents should have the power, not school boards.

But you've already said the school people are the specialists. Why would we be giving the power to non-specialists? It doesn't matter anyway. The neighborhoods that need better schools are the same ones where the parents can't afford to drive their kids an hour every day to a better school. We need to improve the schools we have, not shut them down if they aren't performing.

You tell me, if our public schools outperform other developed countries in the lower grades, why do public school slide after 4th grade?

And why, between PISA 2000 and PISA 2003 why are so many other countries improving, especially most developed countried, but the US remaining the same?

We need to do more.

Since you brought up numbers first, I will supply some. The US scores number 15 world wide in math tests (widly used to rate education level because it is the least dependent on outside influences ie. reading to your kids at night), following, in order,

#1 France
#2 Switzerland
#3 Australia
#4 Denmark
#5 Cyprus
#6 Lithuania
#7 Greece
#8 Sweden
#9 Canada
#11 Slovenia
#12 Italy
#13 Czech Republic
#14 Germany

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Education

Now, when it comes to spending in public education, the US places the lowly number 36, behind every single country that does better on us in education. I'm sure that there are other factors that affect our education level, but increasing money to public schools, instead of creating an inane voucher system would be the correct move.

 

[Kelzie]

Quite frankly, I don't trust the free market with the education of our children - easily one of the most important things that our government does. Perhaps some flexibility and choice could be allowed within the public school system, but privatization is simply asking for abuse (and is unconstitutional).

Just to clear everything up, there is flexibilty in the public school system. You can apply to a school out of your district to take your kid. We have a public school called D'Evlyin in CO that is filled to capacity with a wait list cause parents want to get their kids in.

 

[Engimo]

Just to clear everything up, there is flexibilty in the public school system. You can apply to a school out of your district to take your kid. We have a public school called D'Evlyin in CO that is filled to capacity with a wait list cause parents want to get their kids in.

Ahh, good to know. Like I said, the funding of more programs like this, as opposed to privatization or vouchers, would be more in line with what has been successful in European countries and with the general good of the country. I don't think that we need to get rid of the public schools, we just need to make them better. Funding them properly would be the first step in that direction.

 

[libertarian_knight]

I support charter schools, but they are not privatized. They're still funded by the government, they just have exclusive admittance.



it doesn't matter whose idea it is, vouchers would create a funding of religious schools by the federal government. Not good.



Quite frankly, I don't trust the free market with the education of our children - easily one of the most important things that our government does. Perhaps some flexibility and choice could be allowed within the public school system, but privatization is simply asking for abuse (and is unconstitutional).



You're right, and I think we seem to both be agreeing on a reform of the public school system. I do not think this requires privatization, though. The fundamental idea of the public school system is still a good one, even if it is currently failing us.

I most prefer public charter schools under a voucher system. If that voucher system extends to private schools, even religious ones, I don't mind so much. It would be simple enough to, in passage of any voucher system, say that relgious schools accpeting tax payer funded vouchers loose their tax-exempt status, or are subject to certain (generally mild, but inocuous regulations, such as the requirement to teach established sciences before teach unestablished sciences).

Also, I see, at least in the short term, private schools suffering massive rate hikes as a result of a demand shift in education. The extra money, in the short run, would make priavte schools more expensive, thus influxing more kids into the public scharter system. This would also cause a shift in higher order services of teachers, i.e. increasing demand for teachers, which can drive up pay and competition.

In the long run, I think that public charter schools would respond to the increased demand, and open up more schools, increasing the supply, and attracting yet more students from private schools.

I see a great many parts of the voucher system actually run contrary to what people imagine are benefits for private and religious instruction. Much of the attraction for private and religious instruction, comes just from the market disequalibrium that monopolized public schools create.

It may also be that vouchers would be used as partial tuition for rather expensive, good schools too, with the suplimentals coming from the parents if vouchers do not cover the full cost (which they likely won't).

Some teacher swill suffer, some schools will suffer, and some kids will suffer. But I think it will be less suffering by the schools kids and parents in general.

It's not a perfect system, and obviously the current system is nopt either, otherwise there would be no discussion on education reform at all.

More money is not the answer, and more parental involvement alone is also noth the answer. I think it's the WAY money is used and the WAY parents can be involved that will do more for education than anything else.

We are just doing things the wrong way. It's a way that works, just not well enough. Like a splint may work on a compound leg fracture, but setting the bone, stiching the wound, and applying a cast works better.

Just "working" is not good enough anymore.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Just to clear everything up, there is flexibilty in the public school system. You can apply to a school out of your district to take your kid. We have a public school called D'Evlyin in CO that is filled to capacity with a wait list cause parents want to get their kids in.

one school out of dozens or hundreds is not much of a choice.

it's like saying at an ice cream parlor, the choice is vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, and vanilla, or you can have a tiny drop of some other flavor. Now, if you like vanilla, cool, or if you ONLY like vanilla ALL THE TIME, even better. But if you like anything different ever you're f'ed.

 

[Kelzie]

one school out of dozens or hundreds is not much of a choice.

it's like saying at an ice cream parlor, the choice is vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, vanilla, and vanilla, or you can have a tiny drop of some other flavor. Now, if you like vanilla, cool, or if you ONLY like vanilla ALL THE TIME, even better. But if you like anything different ever you're f'ed.

Dude, what are you talking about? Parents have a choice of all the schools within driving distance. That's exactly what a voucher system would do. Unless, you think parents should be willing to commute their kid three hours so they can have a different choice?

 

[libertarian_knight]

And yet it doesn't work that way. Believe it or not, public schools actually care about what's in the best interest of the child. And parents and the school system working together can figure it out a lot better then just the school. Which is why public schools do listen to parents.

But you've already said the school people are the specialists. Why would we be giving the power to non-specialists? It doesn't matter anyway. The neighborhoods that need better schools are the same ones where the parents can't afford to drive their kids an hour every day to a better school. We need to improve the schools we have, not shut them down if they aren't performing.



Since you brought up numbers first, I will supply some. The US scores number 15 world wide in math tests (widly used to rate education level because it is the least dependent on outside influences ie. reading to your kids at night), following, in order,

#1 France
#2 Switzerland
#3 Australia
#4 Denmark
#5 Cyprus
#6 Lithuania
#7 Greece
#8 Sweden
#9 Canada
#11 Slovenia
#12 Italy
#13 Czech Republic
#14 Germany

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/Education

Now, when it comes to spending in public education, the US places the lowly number 36, behind every single country that does better on us in education. I'm sure that there are other factors that affect our education level, but increasing money to public schools, instead of creating an inane voucher system would be the correct move.

The point about parent choice, is that they would choose the specialists that are best responding to the needs of their children's education. Just like Parents choose the specialists that make their kids clothes, bikes, safety helmets, food, etc etc etc.

more later, it's lunch time

 

[Kelzie]

The point about parent choice, is that they would choose the specialists that are best responding to the needs of their children's education. Just like Parents choose the specialists that make their kids clothes, bikes, safety helmets, food, etc etc etc.

more later, it's lunch time

Yeah, there's better be more.

 

[doughgirl]

Stace you said, “It isn't the school's job to teach "morals and values". It is their job to teach reading, writing, math, history, science, etc. Morals and values are for the parents and the church (if the family attends) to teach.”

They teach many more things than just the three R’s. If you believed in only teaching the basics then subjects like sex education should not be taught. And don’t say oh this is a science...that it is ok to teach sex education. That too should be left up to the parents to teach in the way they prefer. I remember when this happened….http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39588

Stace said, “Because parents are not as involved, though it is not completely their fault....my mom didn't have the time to be as involved in my education as she would have liked, as she worked multiple jobs, but I wanted an education and so I sat there and learned rather than goofing off like my classmates. Kids aren't stupid, if they want to learn, they will”

And it is sad that both parents have to work so hard to support their families that sometimes the kids suffer for it. My mother did not work outside the home. She was there to make sure we all did our school work. I was blessed. I eventually went to college and grad school both my sisters did not finish college. I just turned 50, and I remember most the mothers did not work when I was in elementary and middle school.

But Stace you are different. You wanted an education. I wanted an education. I loved school, still do and still take continuing education classes. But not all children are self-motivated and need a shove or push to continue on. My son happened to be one of those kids. He hated school. He loved sports but hated the education part. It was a fight every day to get him to do homework and study. My daughter hated school but did not need for me to do anything. she was very self-motivated and knew exactly what she wanted to do. We FORCED him to try one year of college. He got a sports Division I scholarship so that helped. He struggled not because he was not smart but because he hates to study and he would rather be out on the golf course shaggin balls. But he is coming around and is doing well. All we wanted was for him to try. Whether he finishes is entirely up to him.

Kids aren’t stupid BUT…………some need direction and if they do not get it they are lost.

“And your little blanket statement about Democrats?”

I said this because this is what the Democratic platform believes. They are not pro-choice education.

“They're not forced to do anything. If they have the money, they can send their kids to private school. Some private schools even have scholarships. Home schooling is an option. There are alternative schools that aren't just for the "bad" kids. They could move to a better school district. There are plenty of options.”

I am neither a Republican or Democrat. My mother was a staunch republican and my dad was a staunch democrat. They argued over issues for as long as I can remember. :smile: That was a good thing however because I saw both sides to every issue.

However I am pro-life so I could never vote for a democrat because their party platform is pro-choice abortion.


You said yourself that many parents are force to work two and three jobs to make ends meet. How many could actually in this day and age home school their children? How many are qualified? I taught art. But I could not in any way shape or form teach my kids high school geometry, algebra or biology, chemistry…………I can barely figure out how much tip to leave in a restaurant. My right brain functions better than my left.
Are you going to expect parents to move and lose their jobs? That is impossible for most parents. In most places there are no options, you ae just stuck with public schools.

“Why should kids be forced to take courses that they're not going to use later on?’

Then why would a kid who wants to be an artist have to take anything other than art classes? Why have high schools at all? Why take geography? history? Art? I happen to think all kids should be exposed to as many things as possible. I wanted to be a writer once.........then I took an art class....that led to drafting classes witch led to archtiecture classes....which led to.....Then I wanted to learn about archetecture...that led to history and so forth...

“Even when I went to Mexico on vacation, I didn't need to speak Spanish. I have neighbors from the Middle East...should I learn to speak Arabic? I don't think so.”

Well our country is indeed a melting pot. More and more people are immigrating to America and speaking their own native languages. One of the first things people did when they immigrated to America in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s was to learn English. Not true anymore. Today if you can speak more than one languages, particularly Mexican, more jobs are open and more money is offered.

Most colleges expect kids who enter to be well rounded. And most kids do not have any clue to what they might want to do.

“Most parents see school as a cheap alternative to daycare.”

I agree.

“Sad, maybe, but not a travesty.....knowing the Star Spangled Banner isn't a requirement for graduation. Some people just don't feel enough patriotic pride to teach it to their kids.”

Sad you feel this way. It is part of American history. It is sung at just about all pro- and amateur athletic events.

Libertarian said, “Yes parents should be more involved, but their ideas and complaints fall on deaf ears, because they have NO POWER over the education system True sometimes. The NEA is a strong organization. It is about impossible to get rid of incompetent teachers. As you saw on 20/20 the list is a mile long with procedures.

BUT……….A teacher can’t hold a student back any longer. It is ultimately the parents’ decision to whether the child moves on or not. I am mainly talking about elementary and middle school.

“Most people are too poor, too ignorant, or too unskilled to make use of alternatives, anyway. So, we have hired specialists.”

You forgot “too busy”.

 

[Stace]

They teach many more things than just the three R’s. If you believed in only teaching the basics then subjects like sex education should not be taught. And don’t say oh this is a science...that it is ok to teach sex education. That too should be left up to the parents to teach in the way they prefer. I remember when this happened….http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39588

I said "etc.", didn't I? Do you want me to list every possible course a school can teach? 'Cause I also left out art, physical education, music, and foreign languages.

And as far as sex ed goes, nine times out of ten, it's not a class itself, it's a unit within a health course. Most schools will allow children to skip out of that particular unit if the parents are strongly opposed to it.

And it is sad that both parents have to work so hard to support their families that sometimes the kids suffer for it.

Well, that's the way the world works these days. Too many jobs don't pay enough money to support an entire family.

My mother did not work outside the home.

And that's very admirable. I'd like to be able to do that, but until my husband starts moving up in the ranks (he's a cop), or until his business with his father starts taking off a little more, it just won't be possible financially for us.

She was there to make sure we all did our school work. I was blessed. I eventually went to college and grad school both my sisters did not finish college. I just turned 50, and I remember most the mothers did not work when I was in elementary and middle school.

When I was little, my mom checked to make sure my homework was done, but as I got older, she realized that I was responsible enough, and cared enough about my education, to do it on my own without her treating me like a child about it.

Until recently, I've never met a family where the mother stayed home. The whole time I was growing up, everyone I knew came from a two income household.

But Stace you are different. You wanted an education. I wanted an education. I loved school, still do and still take continuing education classes. But not all children are self-motivated and need a shove or push to continue on.

You're absolutely correct, I don't believe I've ever said anything to the contrary, and if I said anything to make you think I thought otherwise, I apologize.

My son happened to be one of those kids. He hated school. He loved sports but hated the education part. It was a fight every day to get him to do homework and study. My daughter hated school but did not need for me to do anything. she was very self-motivated and knew exactly what she wanted to do. We FORCED him to try one year of college. He got a sports Division I scholarship so that helped. He struggled not because he was not smart but because he hates to study and he would rather be out on the golf course shaggin balls. But he is coming around and is doing well. All we wanted was for him to try. Whether he finishes is entirely up to him.

Kids aren’t stupid BUT…………some need direction and if they do not get it they are lost.

And that's why more parents need to become more involved....you can't assess your child's motivation level if you're not involved. My mother saw early on that I was extremely self motivated and didn't really need that extra push. My brother was the complete opposite, he was more like your son. He was a smart kid, but he HATED doing his homework. He'd always much rather be outside running around in the woods, or playing his JV and school sports.

I said this because this is what the Democratic platform believes. They are not pro-choice education.

Why do you say that?

I am neither a Republican or Democrat.

Neither am I - don't let the donkeys fool you....I just wanted to everyone to be clear that I'm typically a left leaning person.

My mother was a staunch republican and my dad was a staunch democrat. They argued over issues for as long as I can remember. That was a good thing however because I saw both sides to every issue.

Which is always beneficial....my parents were never much into politics, so I certainly didn't get any of my views from them!

However I am pro-life so I could never vote for a democrat because their party platform is pro-choice abortion.

:shrug: To each their own....

You said yourself that many parents are force to work two and three jobs to make ends meet. How many could actually in this day and age home school their children? How many are qualified?

I actually have a friend that was a stay at home mother and was planning on home schooling her children when they were old enough, but she is now going through a separation and will have to get a job, so it will no longer be possible for her as of right now.

You don't have to have a teaching degree to homeschool. A friend of my husband's was homeschooled. Heck, my old supervisor in the Air Force somehow managed to support himself, his wife, and their five children on E-6 pay so that his wife could stay home with the kids and homeschool. Where there's a will, there's a way. There are also many homeschool groups, where many parents that are "qualified" in different areas will teach those subjects to the kids. I'm pretty sure lesson plans have to submitted to the State for approval. The kids still have to take proficiency tests and stuff.

I taught art. But I could not in any way shape or form teach my kids high school geometry, algebra or biology, chemistry…………I can barely figure out how much tip to leave in a restaurant. My right brain functions better than my left.
Are you going to expect parents to move and lose their jobs? That is impossible for most parents. In most places there are no options, you ae just stuck with public schools.

I don't expect anyone to do anything. I was just pointing out that there ARE alternatives out there.

Then why would a kid who wants to be an artist have to take anything other than art classes? Why have high schools at all? Why take geography? history? Art? I happen to think all kids should be exposed to as many things as possible. I wanted to be a writer once.........then I took an art class....that led to drafting classes witch led to archtiecture classes....which led to.....Then I wanted to learn about archetecture...that led to history and so forth...

There are certain courses that are required. But my high school schedule was very heavy in English courses. I didn't have to take science beyond 9th grade, and I didn't. I didn't have to take math beyond 10th grade, and I didn't. But I took every English course I could. I took a photography course. I studied Economics (it was considered a "social science"), Sociology, Psychology, even Accounting (was considered a business course). I took courses that I knew would help ME later in life, that focused on what I wanted to do when I joined "the real world".

Well our country is indeed a melting pot. More and more people are immigrating to America and speaking their own native languages. One of the first things people did when they immigrated to America in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s was to learn English. Not true anymore. Today if you can speak more than one languages, particularly Mexican, more jobs are open and more money is offered.

This is true. Just saying that it doesn't interest everyone.

Most colleges expect kids who enter to be well rounded. And most kids do not have any clue to what they might want to do.

That's why community colleges exist. Kids can pick up their general credits until they can decide on a major, and most universities will accept all of the transfer credits.

I agree.

:smile:

Sad you feel this way. It is part of American history. It is sung at just about all pro- and amateur athletic events.

Trust me, I know. And you will never see me without a tear in my eye when I hear it. But it's not hard to see that there are a lot of people in this country that are not as patriotic as they would have you think.

And the rest of your post is not directed towards me, so I'll sign off here. :mrgreen:

 

[doughgirl]

“And as far as sex ed goes, nine times out of ten, it's not a class itself, it's a unit within a health course. Most schools will allow children to skip out of that particular unit if the parents are strongly opposed to it.”

Whether it’s a unit or class………it shouldn’t be taught in school. I feel this is something parents or family should teach at home or at church. It is not an academic subject.

“When I was little, my mom checked to make sure my homework was done, but as I got older, she realized that I was responsible enough, and cared enough about my education, to do it on my own without her treating me like a child about it.”

That is admirable. You were motivated. You were responsible. You wanted an education. Many kids do not Many just show up and go through the motions day after day. Even though your mother worked hard and couldn’t stay at home she obviously instilled in you that desire….and you did it on your own. What I am saying is that..many kids are not. They can come from the richest homes......and still not have the desire. Their parents do not care whether or not they succeed in school. I was motivated and loved school. My two sisters did not. My mom had to be on them every day like I was on my son.

“Until recently, I've never met a family where the mother stayed home. The whole time I was growing up, everyone I knew came from a two income household.”

I don’t know many either.

You are a success story. But as I said you were motivated and your mother cared……….think of how many other kids fall through the cracks... that with a push would have done a lot.

I do not think kids are dumb. But I do think they face harder challenges then kids did when I was young.

“You don't have to have a teaching degree to homeschool.”

I did not say that it couldn’t be done. I do think though when you get to the hard stuff, the higher level concepts in high school …many parents do not have the know how………and would have to seek other sources.

“But my high school schedule was very heavy in English courses. I didn't have to take science beyond 9th grade, and I didn't. I didn't have to take math beyond 10th grade, and I didn't. But I took every English course I could. I took a photography course. I studied Economics (it was considered a "social science"), Sociology, Psychology, even Accounting (was considered a business course). I took courses that I knew would help ME later in life, that focused on what I wanted to do when I joined "the real world".’

If memory serves me right, I do not think we (college prep) had to take anything beyond biology, anything beyond geometry. If so I would have struggled I am sure. I hate math and science. Hate it. In college I had a double major in art and dance. One semester I had to take kinesiology. (human movement) Pointe class was easy, but this class,,,,Wowie……..hard class, at least for me.
Art history was a toughie………..

Community colleges are wonderful and I think most kids should go there first. It is easy to get lost in a mega huge university. (smaller class sized, more individualized)

It’s hard enough first year to juggle classes and parties and just being away from home for the first time. My freshman year (1974) the drinking age was 18………I wasn’t a drinker but I was a dancer and disco (yes I loved disco) was in. The bars were jammed every night but Sunday. I lived in an all girls dorm and we had to sneak out every night in order to go. Needless to say, I did not attend many 8:00 a.m. algebra classes.
Oh and for those of you who can remember......streaking was big in 1974. And no I never did it, but I sure did watch. :2razz:

 

[hipsterdufus]

In addition to political pressure, financial pressure is an added benefit to parents. Parents should have the power, not school boards.

We need to do more.

libertarian knight. I would encourage you or anyone else who cares about education to run for school board. It's made up of concerned citizens in the community - and it's a nonpaid position. I talk to my school board rep regularly as a parent of 2 children in public schools.

 

[Engimo]

Whether it’s a unit or class………it shouldn’t be taught in school. I feel this is something parents or family should teach at home or at church. It is not an academic subject.

Yes it is. Knowing the best ways to have safe sex is certainly an academic subject, and a damned important one. If we actually had accurate, comprehensive sex ed, we would doubtlessly have far fewer unwanted pregnancies (and subsequent abortions).

 

[libertarian_knight]

libertarian knight. I would encourage you or anyone else who cares about education to run for school board. It's made up of concerned citizens in the community - and it's a nonpaid position. I talk to my school board rep regularly as a parent of 2 children in public schools.

How does that add the effect, and honestly more important effect, of financial pressure for school to perform well? See, and more importantly, it's hard to do a true cost/benefit analysis of improvments or changes in the absence of market forces, particularly a market affected price mechanism.

Market Consumers indicate the failure or sucess of a system almost immediately. Whereas "standardized testing" takes several years to compile proper data sets to look at. Which is another reason for slow change in school quality.

Even if I were on the school board, issued would be "studied" and "tested" etc. Some people, like Unions and administrators, would resist my proposals vehimently. Which would in turn likely result in a campaign to remove me anyway, and put someone more responsive to the union or admins in power.

The Short term problem then, is wholly incomplete and irresponsive data resulting from the absence of (most) market forces.

The Long Term Problem is political pressure exerted by groups with significant power or resources to maintain the staus quo, or move it more in their favor.

Realize, that unions got 6.5 hour work days and summers off, with parents involved in education.

The way around these problems is to allow market forces to re-enter education, to prune and purge the failing elements, and adopt and aexpand sucessful elements of education.

I've been out of HS for ten years now. Ten years, higher bills, and FEWER KIDS, no change.

Mind you, I am pro-union to a point. Though, Unions of government workers need to be the weakest unions in the country, not the strongest. Because government workers do not get their pay by satisfying consumer demand through volitional trade, they get their pay through men with guns collecting tax money.