Why People Should Hate Public Education

[Daktoria]

Let's cut to the chase. Yes, there's the argument that public education is a coercive, mandatory environment, but I don't want to talk about that here.

What I want to talk about is how public education indoctrinates children to be exploited.

Public education doesn't teach people social values. The rules of engagement of how to legally stand up for oneself are entirely dismissed. Instead, children are strictly taught academic facts only which are supposedly meaningful because they help children get a job. Even worse, sometimes, teachers will argue it's not all about a job, but about "curiosity" which means they're TOTALLY wasting time.

How many grew up asking, "What am I gunna need this for?"

How many grew up bullied and told, "You're such a tool."?

How many grew up hating the popularity contest despite getting good grades in English classes, getting taught how to communicate ineffectively?

I don't understand what public education is trying to achieve anymore. It seems like the system is deliberately built to make children self-conscious and reinforce social hierarchy behind the guise of meritocracy.

On top of that, teacher unions are tolerated despite the fact that they're professional strangers who don't need to share epistemology with locals. That is they can teach children HOW to think in addition to WHAT to think which can confuse children into not getting along with their parents and neighbors.

In sum, the professionalization of reform couldn't be more psychologically dissociating.

 

[Phys251]

And privatization fixes all of those alleged problems how?

 

[Helix]

yes, those evil teachers and their unions.

 

[StillBallin75]

What the **** are you saying?

When I read your posts it's like a whole 'nother language.

 

[Sig]

Let's cut to the chase. Yes, there's the argument that public education is a coercive, mandatory environment, but I don't want to talk about that here.

What I want to talk about is how public education indoctrinates children to be exploited.

Public education doesn't teach people social values. The rules of engagement of how to legally stand up for oneself are entirely dismissed. Instead, children are strictly taught academic facts only which are supposedly meaningful because they help children get a job. Even worse, sometimes, teachers will argue it's not all about a job, but about "curiosity" which means they're TOTALLY wasting time.

How many grew up asking, "What am I gunna need this for?"

How many grew up bullied and told, "You're such a tool."?

How many grew up hating the popularity contest despite getting good grades in English classes, getting taught how to communicate ineffectively?

I don't understand what public education is trying to achieve anymore. It seems like the system is deliberately built to make children self-conscious and reinforce social hierarchy behind the guise of meritocracy.

On top of that, teacher unions are tolerated despite the fact that they're professional strangers who don't need to share epistemology with locals. That is they can teach children HOW to think in addition to WHAT to think which can confuse children into not getting along with their parents and neighbors.

In sum, the professionalization of reform couldn't be more psychologically dissociating.

​

 

[imagep]

I think those are all reasons that some people hate education, not just public education.

Now as far as public education, my wife has a relative who sent her three kids to "private christian school" for two reasons. the first was because she didn't want her kids exposed to minorities, the second is because she went to public school and didn't learn anything - yet my wife went to the same public school and out of her tiny graduating class of 45 students there are now two attornies, six (yes six) engineers, one doctor, one computer programmer, several school teachers, a general manager of a medium size company with a mba, and several business owners. About half the class went on to have above average careers, the others didn't.

Public school is whatever you make out of it, just like anything else.

The biggest complaint that I see on DP about school is that people are required to take classes that they don't think they need. Like art, pe, history, literature, geography, and math classes above the adden and plussen and timesen and dividen level. I personally don't think it is that terrible to get learned up on a variety of subjects.

 

[Gardener]

How many grew up asking, "What am I gunna need this for?"

How many grew up bullied and told, "You're such a tool."?

How many grew up hating the popularity contest despite getting good grades in English classes, getting taught how to communicate ineffectively?

.

How many didn't learn much while actually in school, and so turn to internet political discussion boards as a vehicle for exposing others to their unfocused rants?

 

[Dittohead not!]

What the **** are you saying?

When I read your posts it's like a whole 'nother language.

Perhaps a class in English composition is in order, you know, the sort that is taught in those horrible public schools where students are forced to actually write a coherent paragraph or flunk.

 

[Daktoria]

And privatization fixes all of those alleged problems how?

To be clear, I don't believe private education is a long term fix. Children need public education in order to understand the values of wider society.

However, over the short term, privatizing education would align epistemology because parents would choose schools which appreciate their thought patterns.

It's like how when kids go off to college, they prosper best in the institutions which think the way they do. When you teach kids how to think differently, it only works as long as you're teaching kids how to think COMPLETELY at the same time.

Otherwise, you're just teaching another form of prejudice.

 

[Daktoria]

I think those are all reasons that some people hate education, not just public education.

Now as far as public education, my wife has a relative who sent her three kids to "private christian school" for two reasons. the first was because she didn't want her kids exposed to minorities, the second is because she went to public school and didn't learn anything - yet my wife went to the same public school and out of her tiny graduating class of 45 students there are now two attornies, six (yes six) engineers, one doctor, one computer programmer, several school teachers, a general manager of a medium size company with a mba, and several business owners. About half the class went on to have above average careers, the others didn't.

Public school is whatever you make out of it, just like anything else.

The biggest complaint that I see on DP about school is that people are required to take classes that they don't think they need. Like art, pe, history, literature, geography, and math classes above the adden and plussen and timesen and dividen level. I personally don't think it is that terrible to get learned up on a variety of subjects.

Right. People need abstract education so they're prepared for the unpredictable.

I also agree that public education is the ultimate solution, but you're stretching if you believe public education is what you make of it.

Institutionalization, like any relationship, is a give and a take. You don't control everything. Privatization allows people to find trustworthy institutions.

I lived in a district with a nearby religious school, and it was behind despite having structure.

For some, that worked to their advantage because they learned social values and didn't grow up to become tools. For others, it didn't work because they didn't develop to their potential.

It showed me the good and bad sides of privatization, so it showed me how privatization is a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

 

[KrissiB]

I am personally not a fan of the public education system. But we should not hate it, we should want to change it to make it better for our children.

I love the idea of a public education system. However the one we have in place could use some restructuring- to make it a good educational system.

I believe the idea of putting hundreds of peers in a building (or group of connected buildings) to "pay attention and learn" for 7 hours is the most awful idea ever. Not all students are going to pay attention and learn for 7 hours. It is essentially a massive social setting,what do you expect? They are going to do stuff like make friends, gossip with their friends, write letters to each other rather than doing their class assignment. I am not saying that you don't learn anything in school but we certainly as a country aren't educating our children to be the best they can be.

Public education should be done on a much smaller scale and within the state and local communities in my opinion. This way students can learn in smaller more comfortable settings. Then when children start approaching their teen years rather than going to High School maybe they could do something more useful like go to a vocational/trade school so they can be hands on, learn skills and maybe discover what they want to do for a living.

Let's cut to the chase. Yes, there's the argument that public education is a coercive, mandatory environment, but I don't want to talk about that here.

What I want to talk about is how public education indoctrinates children to be exploited.

Public education doesn't teach people social values. The rules of engagement of how to legally stand up for oneself are entirely dismissed. Instead, children are strictly taught academic facts only which are supposedly meaningful because they help children get a job. Even worse, sometimes, teachers will argue it's not all about a job, but about "curiosity" which means they're TOTALLY wasting time.

How many grew up asking, "What am I gunna need this for?"

How many grew up bullied and told, "You're such a tool."?

How many grew up hating the popularity contest despite getting good grades in English classes, getting taught how to communicate ineffectively?

I don't understand what public education is trying to achieve anymore. It seems like the system is deliberately built to make children self-conscious and reinforce social hierarchy behind the guise of meritocracy.

On top of that, teacher unions are tolerated despite the fact that they're professional strangers who don't need to share epistemology with locals. That is they can teach children HOW to think in addition to WHAT to think which can confuse children into not getting along with their parents and neighbors.

In sum, the professionalization of reform couldn't be more psychologically dissociating.

 

[imagep]

I am personally not a fan of the public education system. But we should not hate it, we should want to change it to make it better for our children.

I love the idea of a public education system. However the one we have in place could use some restructuring- to make it a good educational system.

I believe the idea of putting hundreds of peers in a building (or group of connected buildings) to "pay attention and learn" for 7 hours is the most awful idea ever. Not all students are going to pay attention and learn for 7 hours. It is essentially a massive social setting,what do you expect? They are going to do stuff like make friends, gossip with their friends, write letters to each other rather than doing their class assignment. I am not saying that you don't learn anything in school but we certainly as a country aren't educating our children to be the best they can be.

Public education should be done on a much smaller scale and within the state and local communities in my opinion. This way students can learn in smaller more comfortable settings. Then when children start approaching their teen years rather than going to High School maybe they could do something more useful like go to a vocational/trade school so they can be hands on, learn skills and maybe discover what they want to do for a living.

How do you learn what you REALLY want to do at a trade school that only teaches maybe 10 different trades, and every high school level trade school (we call them "vocational schools" here) all teach the same trades. Just how many welders, auto mechanics, and cosmotologists do we need? I'm not against trade schools, but it's not realistic to think that the world needs enough workers in any specific trade to accomidate all graduating high schools students. Maybe a specific community only needs two or three new HVAC specialists each year, yet these trade schools can't afford to train just three students in a class.

Our workforce is really varied, and traditional high school, although not perfect, does attempt to give students varied skills, or at least the ability to learn a variety of skills later in life. when I was working my way through college, I had a number of jobs, none of which any trade school program would have prepared me for any better than regular high school. I worked for a concrete company setting up concrete forms, I worked for a company that installed drainage pipe, I sewed rolls of cloth together in a company that produced camo printed material, I was a line server in a "meat and three" eatery, I worked as a cashier in the fast food industry, I even worked for a company that made springs. I really don't know that any trade school program would have prepared me for any of those jobs - any more than academic classes in high school.

Let's face it, most new high school graduates who don't go to college or join the military end up with minimum wage or near minimum wage jobs for their first few years in the workforce. Minimum wage jobs don't require any vocational training. I used to be a manager at McDonalds and I promise I can teach someone to cook fries in less than 3 minutes. Even BMW, my county's largest employer mostly hires what I consider to be unskilled labor. Society has a legitimate need for unskilled labor. We could train everyone today in a trade, but not everyone would get a decent paying trade job because their simply arn't enough skilled labor jobs to go around.

And why do people keep suggesting this? I mean I am not against trade schools, but in my state we already have those. Every school district has a vocational school, or at least shares a vocational school. Students spend half their day at the high school, and then the other half at the "vo". And every county in the state that is of decent size has either a community college or a technical college. It's not like there is really a shortage of vocational training programs. If everyone being able to a trade school was the answer, then our educational problems were over decades ago.

Anyhow, welcome to DP!

 

[Slartibartfast]

What the **** are you saying?

When I read your posts it's like a whole 'nother language.

Public education fer yas

 

[johnny_rebson]

At least we have some intelligent people on this forum who realize we need to completely dismantle the public education system immediately.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Public education seems to have adopted the special olympics model; no winners, no losers, (no grades?) everybody gets a medal (diploma?) just for participation. This is said to boost that, all important, self-esteem to ensure one has success in life with that "can do" attitude, vital to thinking that simply showing up to work with a smile, is a sure way to "git-r-done".

Many colleges now have non-credit prep courses in math and english to get students (with HS diplomas) "up to speed". No need for a HS graduate to know how to balance a check book, fill out a job application or plan a basic household budget - that is college level material now.
They leave HS knowing all about cultural diversity, social justice and some can even find their own state on a US map. They are indeed ready for the world and casting that, all important, first vote in the next election. USA, USA, USA...

 

[Dittohead not!]

Public education seems to have adopted the special olympics model; no winners, no losers, (no grades?) everybody gets a medal (diploma?) just for participation. This is said to boost that, all important, self-esteem to ensure one has success in life with that "can do" attitude, vital to thinking that simply showing up to work with a smile, is a sure way to "git-r-done".

It used to be that way.
When I was in high school back in the '50s, the only requirements for graduation were four years in the seat, and passing PE. That was it, no exit exams, no grade requirements, nothing else. Today, it's different. Students have to pass an exam to get a diploma. They have to pass their classes now. They have to pass algebra now, a class we didn't even have to take.

Schools have improved with time. There is still a lot that needs to be done, to be sure, but your characterization of high school is way out of date. The "self esteem" as first priority was 1970s. Kids do get grades, and no one gets a diploma just for participation any more.

 

[imagep]

At least we have some intelligent people on this forum who realize we need to completely dismantle the public education system immediately.

So how did those people become so intelligent? Hmmmm.

 

[imagep]

Public education seems to have adopted the special olympics model; no winners, no losers, (no grades?) everybody gets a medal (diploma?) just for participation. This is said to boost that, all important, self-esteem to ensure one has success in life with that "can do" attitude, vital to thinking that simply showing up to work with a smile, is a sure way to "git-r-done".

Many colleges now have non-credit prep courses in math and english to get students (with HS diplomas) "up to speed". No need for a HS graduate to know how to balance a check book, fill out a job application or plan a basic household budget - that is college level material now.
They leave HS knowing all about cultural diversity, social justice and some can even find their own state on a US map. They are indeed ready for the world and casting that, all important, first vote in the next election. USA, USA, USA...

Wow, I thought my state was ranked very low for education, but Texas must be much lower. When I was in grade school, and when my son was in grade school (just a year ago), there were most definately grades, and rewards for doing well and penalties for under achiving. And most definately, not all students got diplomas.

And while many of our community colleges and tech schools have remedial courses (and some of the lower ranked private colleges), most of the better colleges are fairly selective. Over 22,000 students applied for 4500 freshmen spots at my son's college, I am fairly sure that they filtered out most of the students who couldn't read or write (except for the athletes ha ha).

Also, I have looked at the curriculums for quite a few colleges and I have yet to see "home economics" being required for any degree.

 

[Fruityfact]

Public education seems to have adopted the special olympics model; no winners, no losers, (no grades?) everybody gets a medal (diploma?) just for participation. This is said to boost that, all important, self-esteem to ensure one has success in life with that "can do" attitude, vital to thinking that simply showing up to work with a smile, is a sure way to "git-r-done".

A HS diploma is worthless(kind of) because it is worthless. You don't even need to be mediocre to graduate-you can be wayyy below average and put no effort in and still get a diploma via credit recovery and summer school which both just require you to be present...

 

[KrissiB]

Who said that trade schools and vocational skills can't be changed as well to include other skills? I'm just saying we focus more on giving our kids a social experience than actual skills to help them be successful in life.

and thank you, it's nice to be here.

How do you learn what you REALLY want to do at a trade school that only teaches maybe 10 different trades, and every high school level trade school (we call them "vocational schools" here) all teach the same trades. Just how many welders, auto mechanics, and cosmotologists do we need? I'm not against trade schools, but it's not realistic to think that the world needs enough workers in any specific trade to accomidate all graduating high schools students. Maybe a specific community only needs two or three new HVAC specialists each year, yet these trade schools can't afford to train just three students in a class.

Our workforce is really varied, and traditional high school, although not perfect, does attempt to give students varied skills, or at least the ability to learn a variety of skills later in life. when I was working my way through college, I had a number of jobs, none of which any trade school program would have prepared me for any better than regular high school. I worked for a concrete company setting up concrete forms, I worked for a company that installed drainage pipe, I sewed rolls of cloth together in a company that produced camo printed material, I was a line server in a "meat and three" eatery, I worked as a cashier in the fast food industry, I even worked for a company that made springs. I really don't know that any trade school program would have prepared me for any of those jobs - any more than academic classes in high school.

Let's face it, most new high school graduates who don't go to college or join the military end up with minimum wage or near minimum wage jobs for their first few years in the workforce. Minimum wage jobs don't require any vocational training. I used to be a manager at McDonalds and I promise I can teach someone to cook fries in less than 3 minutes. Even BMW, my county's largest employer mostly hires what I consider to be unskilled labor. Society has a legitimate need for unskilled labor. We could train everyone today in a trade, but not everyone would get a decent paying trade job because their simply arn't enough skilled labor jobs to go around.

And why do people keep suggesting this? I mean I am not against trade schools, but in my state we already have those. Every school district has a vocational school, or at least shares a vocational school. Students spend half their day at the high school, and then the other half at the "vo". And every county in the state that is of decent size has either a community college or a technical college. It's not like there is really a shortage of vocational training programs. If everyone being able to a trade school was the answer, then our educational problems were over decades ago.

Anyhow, welcome to DP!

 

[imagep]

It used to be that way.
When I was in high school back in the '50s, the only requirements for graduation were four years in the seat, and passing PE. That was it, no exit exams, no grade requirements, nothing else. Today, it's different. Students have to pass an exam to get a diploma. They have to pass their classes now. They have to pass algebra now, a class we didn't even have to take.

Schools have improved with time. There is still a lot that needs to be done, to be sure, but your characterization of high school is way out of date. The "self esteem" as first priority was 1970s. Kids do get grades, and no one gets a diploma just for participation any more.

Thats what I am talking about. Our educational system is the best it has ever been. It may be far from perfect, but kids are getting taught all types of valuable life skills that they didn't learn decades ago - and not just pot smoking, that has always been around. I'm talking about computer skills, mathmatics, music and arts, and in some schools even PE is more than just "your shirts and your skins now pick teams".

I am totally befuddled why people think that our educational system has gotton worse. There are really no statistics that indicate that, our literacy rate is at an all time high and most high schools offer honors classes and ap classes and even dual enrollment in local colleges.

What amazes me even more is when it is a 22 year old saying "these kids today they aint learning nothing in school, back in my day we had to...and we said yes sir and yes maam... and we respected the teachers...and didn't no one do drugs...bla bla bla ". Do people really thing that human nature can change that much in 4 years? heck, human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years:

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

 

[Boo Radley]

To be clear, I don't believe private education is a long term fix. Children need public education in order to understand the values of wider society.

However, over the short term, privatizing education would align epistemology because parents would choose schools which appreciate their thought patterns.

It's like how when kids go off to college, they prosper best in the institutions which think the way they do. When you teach kids how to think differently, it only works as long as you're teaching kids how to think COMPLETELY at the same time.

Otherwise, you're just teaching another form of prejudice.

So you just oppose learning stuff? I'm not sure you understand education at all.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Thats what I am talking about. Our educational system is the best it has ever been. It may be far from perfect, but kids are getting taught all types of valuable life skills that they didn't learn decades ago - and not just pot smoking, that has always been around. I'm talking about computer skills, mathmatics, music and arts, and in some schools even PE is more than just "your shirts and your skins now pick teams".

I am totally befuddled why people think that our educational system has gotton worse. There are really no statistics that indicate that, our literacy rate is at an all time high and most high schools offer honors classes and ap classes and even dual enrollment in local colleges.

What amazes me even more is when it is a 22 year old saying "these kids today they aint learning nothing in school, back in my day we had to...and we said yes sir and yes maam... and we respected the teachers...and didn't no one do drugs...bla bla bla ". Do people really thing that human nature can change that much in 4 years? heck, human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years:

I think it's a combination of the "we used to walk five miles to school barefoot in the snow" nonsense, along with the "the government is running it, so it must be bad" philosophy.

But, that's just a guess.

 

[imagep]

A HS diploma is worthless(kind of) because it is worthless. You don't even need to be mediocre to graduate-you can be wayyy below average and put no effort in and still get a diploma via credit recovery and summer school which both just require you to be present...

Thats the way it is supposed to be. A HS diploma isn't supposed to be any great achievement. It's the MINIMAL educational level that one should achieve. "Minimal", as in "minimum wage".

If you want something other than the minimum, then you need to consider college and possibly even a PhD.

 

[imagep]

Who said that trade schools and vocational skills can't be changed as well to include other skills? I'm just saying we focus more on giving our kids a social experience than actual skills to help them be successful in life.

and thank you, it's nice to be here.

Other skills like what? English and higher level mathmatics? Thats what high school is for. You've just converted high schools to trade schools and then back into high schools.

I really hate to promote the status quo, improving education is very important, but I don't know that we should reinvent it. Our system is pretty solid as it is, students have options and choices, they may not always make the right decisions, but all we can do as a society is to give them the opportuntities to learn.

There are reasons that high schools teach the classes that they do, and there are reasons that we don't force every student into a vocational school, and there are reasons that we make vocational schools available to everyone. There are reasons that we teach social studies in school, and there are reasons that we don't teach more social studies than we already do. There are reasons that we offer advanced algebra, physics, and chemistry, and reasons that we don't teach advanced algebra, physics and chemistry to all students.

All of this stuff, good and bad, has evolved over many decades of trial and error. It's not like someone just woke up one day and said "I know, I will create a really sucky education system" on a whim. Maybe instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, we should just fine tune the spokes a little.