Why not agree Ukraine will not join NATO?

[SonOfDaedalus]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

 

[Craig234]

I don't have a position on the question yet, but I think it's worth exploring - in exchange for security agreements from Russia also. I think we are right to protect Ukraine's freedom, but that doesn't mean having to surround Russia with NATO.

 

[lemmiwinx]

Why not let Ukraine decide which way they want to go with NATO? They're grown adults aren't they? Putin be damned.

 

[Exquisitor]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Tell Russia, Ukraine won't join NATO, and then have Ukraine join Nato, like Russia said it wouldn't invade Ukraine if it gave up its nukes.

 

[Loulit01]

Because you don't negotiate at the end of a gun.

 

[Questerr]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

“Why don’t we just let Mr Hitler have the German-speaking regions of Czechoslovakia? He’s agreed he won’t push for anymore territory and we can take him at this word.”

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia.

The Warsaw Pact was basically an alliance against Western democracies, so what IS the big deal?
Here's the big deal...the Warsaw Pact was formed when West Germany was admitted to NATO.
The USSR felt that there was nothing wrong with moving INTO Germany and annexing East Germany.
The Pact began to unravel with the spread of the Revolutions of 1989 through the Eastern Bloc, beginning with the Solidarity movement in Poland,[17] its electoral success in June 1989 and the Pan-European Picnic in August 1989.[18]


Would you feel comfortable with Moscow reestablishing the Berlin Wall today?
NATO was formed for a damn good reason.

 

[craig]

If Russia and The Ukraine have such close ties then why does Russia fear what Ukraine will do. It appears that Ukraine fears what Russia will do. And current events show they were right to do so.

 

[Michael Cole]

If Russia and The Ukraine have such close ties then why does Russia fear what Ukraine will do. It appears that Ukraine fears what Russia will do. And current events show they were right to do so.

Putin fears democracy. I doubt Russia fears it. Indeed, because Ukraine and Russia have ties, Putin is afraid of losing his people to democracy. If Ukrainians can have it, why can't Russians?

 

[Integrityrespec]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Because that's being blackmailed.

 

[Perotista]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

All I have to say on this subject is if NATO, the U.S. would have abided by the G.H.W. Bush and Gorbachev's agreement on the peaceful unification of Germany, none of this would be happening. Basically, that agreement said all of Germany, East and West when the nation became one could remain in NATO. But NATO wouldn’t expand east of Germany. So much for the U.S. and NATO keeping its word and abiding the agreement.


https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

[jpn]

I don't have a position on the question yet, but I think it's worth exploring - in exchange for security agreements from Russia also. I think we are right to protect Ukraine's freedom, but that doesn't mean having to surround Russia with NATO.

I'm also on the fence on this. We shouldn't be too glib about the idea that NATO is menacing Russia, though, since Russia has been and continues to be the aggressor that its neighbors have been trying to escape from for centuries.

In fact, NATO has bent backwards to be compliant with the NATO-Russia Founding Act by not positioning substantial combat forces east of Germany on a permanent basis. This has been at a significant cost to readiness and troop morale. I imagine this Act is now completely defunct after Putin's invasion.

 

[Jay59]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

What close ties between Russia and Ukraine? They share a long border but it's an armed one.

NATO was formed against the Warsaw Pact nations, not Russia. Things have evolved.

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree?

I don't agree that it's reasonable.

The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country?

It's a point to present. I'm not sure it's convincing.

And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Which country is in a state of war? In neither then it is not same concerns.

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

So?

 

[ataraxia]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

I have wondered the same thing. Or maybe even a guanantee that no NATO membership for Ukraine for at least the next 20 years or something. They weren’t going to be joining anytime soon anyway.

But I think part of the problem is that that’s not all Russia is demanding. They also want NATO out of all the former Warsaw Pact nations: Poland, Czech Republic, etc… these nations have already joined. That’s just a non-starter in negotiations.

 

[Evilroddy]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

SonoD:

Pride and clashing visions of manifest destiny.

Be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[jpn]

All I have to say on this subject is if NATO, the U.S. would have abided by the G.H.W. Bush and Gorbachev's agreement on the peaceful unification of Germany, none of this would be happening. Basically, that agreement said all of Germany, East and West when the nation became one could remain in NATO. But NATO wouldn’t expand east of Germany. So much for the U.S. and NATO keeping its word and abiding the agreement.

1. Water under the bridge.
2. A conversation has never been recognized as a binding obligation. In conspicuous contrast to, say, Russia's signed agreement in 1994 to respect Ukraine's sovereignty in return for giving the nuclear missiles back to Russia.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Why not let Ukraine decide which way they want to go with NATO? They're grown adults aren't they? Putin be damned.

If Ukraine was part of NATO when the Russians invaded Crimea, we would have been bound by treaty to go to war with Russia. Why would we want that?

How would we feel if Mexico entered into a pack with China that said if Mexico is invaded by the U.S. China would be bound to defend it? Our level of hypocrisy here is insane.

Yes, Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty but why do we want to enter into some stupid agreement to defend Ukraine? I thought Americans were done with being world police and fighting to defend other countries?

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Because that's being blackmailed.

It's avoiding war by agreeing to something that is inconsequential. How is Ukraine joining NATO in the interest of the U.S. or other NATO countries? It's not. This would literally be a war over nothing.

And you have to see it from the Russian perspective. What if Mexico or Canada wanted to join a defensive alliance with China? That would be a security threat for us.

 

[jnug]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Actually it's not. And the issue is not what NATO would or would not do but what sovereign nations should reserve the right to do. To do otherwise is simply a form of the Chamberlain capitulation to another famous thug of history. That did not work out too well now did it. Hitler did not stop with Czechoslovakia and Putin won't stop with Ukraine.

Putin wants Ukraine and other parts of what is not the defunct Soviet Union to fly under the Russian flag. NATO has little to nothing to do with it. NATO is simply a rationalization for Putin thievery.

As stated previously, Putin wants Ukraine. His problem is that Ukraine dues not want him.

 

[FreedomFromAll]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Cuba does not equate Ukraine and is also being used as an argument by Putin supporters. When did you become a talking piece for Putin?

 

[FreedomFromAll]

I don't have a position on the question yet, but I think it's worth exploring - in exchange for security agreements from Russia also. I think we are right to protect Ukraine's freedom, but that doesn't mean having to surround Russia with NATO.

You seem to think that Putin is someone who negotiates; he does not. Besides Putin just announced his goal of taking over countries that he thinks should be his. Putin wants to take over every piece of land that used to belong to the Soviets. Making your assertions naive at best.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Cuba does not equate Ukraine and is also being used as an argument by Putin supporters. When did you become a talking piece for Putin?

My history of opposition to Putin is clear. I'm also against unnecessary war. Do you really want to see human beings die over a completely meaningless pledge?

We're basically being asked to agree not to do something that we have no intention of doing.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

Actually it's not. And the issue is not what NATO would or would not do but what sovereign nations should reserve the right to do. To do otherwise is simply a form of the Chamberlain capitulation to another famous thug of history. That did not work out too well now did it. Hitler did not stop with Czechoslovakia and Putin won't stop with Ukraine.

Not Chamberlain again! That's how we got the Gulf War and decades of Middle Eastern instability.

Given how horrific WW2 was, Chamberlain was right to do whatever it took to avoid it. Imagine if the history books recorded that a full-blown world war was started over the annexation of Czechoslovakia?

The Chamberlain argument ignores all the times we chose to avoid war even after aggression. We didn't go to war with the USSR over Afghanistan. Wouldn't you agree that was a "Chamberlain capitulation"?

 

[FreedomFromAll]

My history of opposition to Putin is clear. I'm also against unnecessary war. Do you really want to see human beings die over a completely meaningless pledge?

We're basically being asked to agree not to do something that we have no intention of doing.

Every sane person is against war. But you still parroted an argument made by Putin supporters, why?

 

[joluoto]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Where's Ukraine's decision in all this? Isn't it up to Ukraine, a independent country to seek to align itself with an alliance of it's choice, or are we just throwing away Urainian sovereignity to the Russians here?