Why not agree Ukraine will not join NATO?

[jnug]

You are aware Iraq was not a NATO operation, yes?

Believe it or not....he might not know that. What he does not know would fill a grain silo.....twenty grain silos.

 

[Questerr]

Believe it or not....he might not know that. What he does not know would fill a grain silo.....twenty grain silos.

Indeed, he also seems to thing the USAF still operates C-141’s and that the Anglo-Polish Defense Treaty was “long standing” when WW2 began.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Erm, in 2003 Turkey refused to allow the US Military to use the base at Incirlik or Turkish airspace related to operations in Iraq.

Erm, not at all applicable to the question posed.

Seriously, describe and support any credible scenario where Turkey would attempt to deny the United States access to the Black Sea.

 

[bave]

You are aware Iraq was not a NATO operation, yes?

Yea that wasn't the question though was it?

The question was to provide a scenario where Turkey would deny access to Turkish real estate. I gave that example.

 

[Questerr]

Yea that wasn't the question though was it?

The question was to provide a scenario where Turkey would deny access to Turkish real estate. I gave that example.

You gave an example of a conflict where Turkey had no treaty obligation to help America and are trying to compare it to a situation where they would have such a treaty obligation.

 

[bave]

You gave an example of a conflict where Turkey had no treaty obligation to help America and are trying to compare it to a situation where they would have such a treaty obligation.

What treaty is that? Are you still referring to the memorandum? Still waiting for you to show me where we have a legal obligation to defend Ukranianian sovereignty. Or are you under that the question assumes Ukraine is already a member of NATO? That wasn't the question. It is quoted above, read more slowly.

 

[jnug]

What treaty is that? Are you still referring to the memorandum? Still waiting for you to show me where we have a legal obligation to defend Ukranianian sovereignty. Or are you under that the question assumes Ukraine is already a member of NATO? That wasn't the question. It is quoted above, read more slowly.

We don't. What does that have to do with anything? Are we putting boots on the ground in Ukraine? Are we threatening missile strikes against Russian forces invading Ukraine? Are we bombing them...even suggesting we might?

Now Russia on the other hand has crapped all over its signature on the Budapest Memorandum and while none of the signatories made guarantees of support for a Ukraine under attack, Russia is a long way from its "assurances" to Ukraine as it has been actually attacking Ukraine since 2014 and is attacking it now again.

 

[independentusa]

Look, if Russia attacks Poland then yea, I agree, we are in it. That doesn't mean we need to provactively invite new members to NATO that are in the midst of military disputes.




I am aware of this, but my reading of it is that the security assurances were that it would be referred to the UN not the same as a mutual defense pact. Correct? Or is there another aspect where the US explicity agrees to guarantee the independence and sovereigny of Ukraine?

We did not invite Ukraine to join NATO, nor have they said they would do so. It is not about NATO at all, but that Putin wants Ukraine to come under the control of Russia as it did when it was part of the USSR.

 

[Luckyone]

Can you point me to your posts where you are suggesting we intervene when democracy is overthrown across Africa, Asia, and South and Central America? Do you have a similar position with regard to China and the Uyghurs? Should we exercise military power to stop an internal genocide?



Right? Russia can turn around and make the claim it was a breakaway territory that they are simply bringing back into the fold. Likewise they can claim that the two breakaway regions are ethnic Russians who have rightfully and legally declared their sovereignty and requested Russian support.

Again, where do you take this? Are you sending troops into Ukraine? Did you ever serve? Or are you just sending someone else's kids?



Great, so now, at best, we get another South Korea where we have to keep tens of thousands of troops and billions a year to be a speedbump as the New World Police.

You have a problem not understanding words?

There has been no nation in Africa that has been invaded by another established nation against their will. "Invasion" is the key word. Democracy is not the word as we are not the judges of the people of any country. If the people of that country decide they do not want Democracy and want to join back (as a whole country) to Russia, we would do nothing and have no say in it. Ukraine has asked for help to defend their chosen type of government and we are defending their right to do so.

Who is allowing Russia to dictate what is and what is not. They can do that within their own country but have no right to go into another country and dictate what is to happen.

Where do I take this? I take where the established guidelines tells me to go. Where the guidelines are set by the alliance of NATO that has established that each country is sovereign to the own but nor forcibly changed to what another country wants.

I am "shocked" that this simple fact has to be explained to you.

 

[Questerr]

What treaty is that? Are you still referring to the memorandum? Still waiting for you to show me where we have a legal obligation to defend Ukranianian sovereignty. Or are you under that the question assumes Ukraine is already a member of NATO? That wasn't the question. It is quoted above, read more slowly.

I’m talking about the North Atlantic Treaty. If Ukraine joins NATO and Article 5 is later invoked due to continued Russian aggression, Turkey would be treaty bound to assist, something they weren’t obligated to regarding Iraq.

 

[lemmiwinx]

If Ukraine was part of NATO when the Russians invaded Crimea, we would have been bound by treaty to go to war with Russia. Why would we want that?

How would we feel if Mexico entered into a pack with China that said if Mexico is invaded by the U.S. China would be bound to defend it? Our level of hypocrisy here is insane.

Yes, Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty but why do we want to enter into some stupid agreement to defend Ukraine? I thought Americans were done with being world police and fighting to defend other countries?

If Ukraine had been part of NATO in 2014 maybe Putin wouldn't have taken Crimea from them. Now he's after more.

 

[iguanaman]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Ukraine only wants to join NATO because of what Putin is doing now. The "big deal" is when countries like Russia do not recognize the right of sovereignty of others and try to take control by force. That is a REAL security concern for Ukraine. Nato is not an alliance against Russia. It is a pact that provides mutual security from ANY aggressor for member countries. NATO has no interest in attacking any country including Russia.

 

[lemmiwinx]

Nah, Zelensky is a fascist who's locked up Ukrainians who disagree with him. He's imprisoned political opposition and he's shut down any media outlets that don't toe his line.
So that would mean Ukrainians don't get to decide, and some despots in Kiev get to decide for them, while you dishonestly pretend it's all good and democratic.

I think the United States should pursue reconciliation with Russia, Zelensky be damned.

I thought Zielenski was this lovable comedian/actor who rose to power in Ukraine on his popularity alone. Now we're to believe he's this despicable autocrat bent on exterminating ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Are we going to have to go through this every time Putin skips his meds?

 

[jnug]

I thought Zielenski was this lovable comedian/actor who rose to power in Ukraine on his popularity alone. Now we're to believe he's this despicable autocrat bent on exterminating ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Are we going to have to go through this every time Putin skips his meds?

I know....it's insane. If there is one topic the alt-right knows less about than domestic affairs, its foreign policy. There is enough absurd shit in this one thread to keep somebody entertained for decades.

But if you want to see something truly deranged....try watching Putin's address which includes declaring two provinces within Ukraine as independent states. The whole thing is deranged. You can't find one paragraph that is not deranged and I am not a Russian. Were I a Russian I would be at least 3/4 through a liter of vodka desperately trying to get drunk enough to find some level that allowed me to suggest that it was not deranged.

Honestly it makes Trump sound .....sound.......SANE!