Why not agree Ukraine will not join NATO?

[bave]

Why does the US care about Ukraine? Honestly, why? We have no historical ties to them. I would argue that Poland/Bulgaria etc are not in the sphere of influence for Russia historically, but Ukraine certainly is. Major nations are going to want to keep other major powers out of their sphere of influence it is really just as basic as that. It would be no different than Mexico (or Cuba) striking a military alliance with China. We wouldn't tolerate it, plain and simple.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Why does the US care about Ukraine? Honestly, why? We have no historical ties to them. I would argue that Poland/Bulgaria etc are not in the sphere of influence for Russia historically, but Ukraine certainly is. Major nations are going to want to keep other major powers out of their sphere of influence it is really just as basic as that. It would be no different than Mexico (or Cuba) striking a military alliance with China. We wouldn't tolerate it, plain and simple.

Keeping dictators from expanding their influence is always a good cause. However, I do not support the US going to war in this instance. We should sanction them until they cry uncle though.

 

[jnug]

Why does the US care about Ukraine? Honestly, why? We have no historical ties to them. I would argue that Poland/Bulgaria etc are not in the sphere of influence for Russia historically, but Ukraine certainly is. Major nations are going to want to keep other major powers out of their sphere of influence it is really just as basic as that. It would be no different than Mexico (or Cuba) striking a military alliance with China. We wouldn't tolerate it, plain and simple.

"Sphere of Influence". Sure...lets just bring back all the classics from the Cold War. Got anything better? I don't that we would not allow a defensive treaty alliance in this hemisphere. We would not like it. Not at all sure we would deny it. Did we rush to keep Russians supporting Maduro out or Venezuela?

 

[jnug]

Keeping dictators from expanding their influence is always a good cause. However, I do not support the US going to war in this instance. We should sanction them until they cry uncle though.

And supply Ukraine the armaments it needs to defend itself.

 

[Quag]

NATO is basically an alliance against Russia. Given the close ties between Russia and Ukraine, it seems pretty reasonable that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join an anti-Russia alliance. And why would NATO members want to agree to go to war with Russia if Ukraine is invaded which is what NATO membership would mean?

Ukraine never joining NATO is a reasonable demand. Why not agree? The "principle" argument is BS. Did we respect the sovereignty of Cuba when they wanted Soviet missiles in their country? And we've let Israel occupy territory for decades citing the same "security concerns."

Finally, no way all 30 nations in NATO would ever agree to let Ukraine join. So what's the big deal here?

Why would NATO let Russia dictate who an be members of NATO?

 

[OrphanSlug]

I cannot read Putin's mind. But it's clear he's threatened by the possibility of Ukraine allying itself with NATO and western nations.

My only point is that agreeing to not allow Ukraine into NATO is an inconsequential concession. That's my only point here. It costs us nothing to make such a concession.

What I am stuck on is you will say what Russia and other nations have an interest or not, then turn around and say you "cannot read Putin's mind."

Understand that I consider NATO to be a relic and largely useless, but your "only point" boils down to holding NATO and Ukraine hostage to appease Russia. This is after Russia has already swiped Crimea.

I am trying to understand why you think that is wise, as if Russia will stop demanding things assuming NATO agreed with you.

 

[Questerr]

If Ukraine was part of NATO when the Russians invaded Crimea, we would have been bound by treaty to go to war with Russia. Why would we want that?

How would we feel if Mexico entered into a pack with China that said if Mexico is invaded by the U.S. China would be bound to defend it? Our level of hypocrisy here is insane.

Yes, Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty but why do we want to enter into some stupid agreement to defend Ukraine? I thought Americans were done with being world police and fighting to defend other countries?

It would behoove the US in such a situation to not invade Mexico, wouldn’t it?

 

[bave]

Keeping dictators from expanding their influence is always a good cause. However, I do not support the US going to war in this instance. We should sanction them until they cry uncle though.

No argument with your first, but I don't want to enter into a defensive alliance with a nation that is provocative for no reason. Want a defensive alliance with Australia, Canada, UK, or our traditional allies? Yea, no issue. Tying us to the military fate of Ukraine? Yea, hard pass. America has no ties to Ukraine, we are just doing it to troll Putin and that's not worth the risk.

"Sphere of Influence". Sure...lets just bring back all the classics from the Cold War. Got anything better? I don't that we would not allow a defensive treaty alliance in this hemisphere. We would not like it. Not at all sure we would deny it. Did we rush to keep Russians supporting Maduro out or Venezuela?

You don't think the US is running the exact same argument with spheres of influence? What do you think the entire contest in the South China Sea is about? You bring up Venezuela, we are crushing them with sanctions. They, or Russia, have no ability to actually project power to the US. NATO (IE: the US)could hurt Russia with simple conventional force.

 

[j brown's body]

It would behoove the US in such a situation to not invade Mexico, wouldn’t it?

Or Mexico invade us, to use Putin's trationale.

 

[Luckyone]

Why does the US care about Ukraine? Honestly, why? We have no historical ties to them. I would argue that Poland/Bulgaria etc are not in the sphere of influence for Russia historically, but Ukraine certainly is. Major nations are going to want to keep other major powers out of their sphere of influence it is really just as basic as that. It would be no different than Mexico (or Cuba) striking a military alliance with China. We wouldn't tolerate it, plain and simple.

Why do we care about Ukraine?

Very simple answer

Being the strongest military and being the main representative of Democracy in the world, do we actually allow any country to be invaded simply as a power grab? If we did allow it, would any Democratic nation in the world (England, France, Canada, Mexico, etc) ever trust us to defend them ( or more importantly - defend Democracy) if the same thing was happening to them?

It is not about picking and choosing who to defend. It is about defending the principle (Democracy) that we stand for and believe in.

 

[jnug]

No argument with your first, but I don't want to enter into a defensive alliance with a nation that is provocative for no reason. Want a defensive alliance with Australia, Canada, UK, or our traditional allies? Yea, no issue. Tying us to the military fate of Ukraine? Yea, hard pass. America has no ties to Ukraine, we are just doing it to troll Putin and that's not worth the risk.



You don't think the US is running the exact same argument with spheres of influence? What do you think the entire contest in the South China Sea is about? You bring up Venezuela, we are crushing them with sanctions. They, or Russia, have no ability to actually project power to the US. NATO (IE: the US)could hurt Russia with simple conventional force.

China Sea is International waters so Sorry but as usual NOOOOO! What does US sanctions on Venezuela have to do with Russia sending troops there? US was a major importer of oil from Venezuela until the became a SA basket case....hence the sanctions.

As for US/NATO during Russia with conventional force....NATO is a defensive treaty organization. You are simply repeating the Russia line that they must attack to defend themselves.

Yet another of the forum Russia-crats checks in.

 

[bave]

Why do we care about Ukraine?

Very simple answer

Being the strongest military and being the main representative of Democracy in the world, do we actually allow any country to be invaded simply as a power grab? If we did allow it, would any Democratic nation in the world (England, France, Canada, Mexico, etc) ever trust us to defend them ( or more importantly - defend Democracy) if the same thing was happening to them?

It is not about picking and choosing who to defend. It is about defending the principle (Democracy) that we stand for and believe in.

Where and when does it stop. I am tired of being the global cop. Why should the US continue to have to spend blood and treasure to keep the world in order? Europe has the tools to deal with this problem, let them deal with it. If they want to defend Ukraine, let them. More importantly, tell them to stop economically supporting the antagonist.

China Sea is International waters so Sorry but as usual NOOOOO! What does US sanctions on Venezuela have to do with Russia sending troops there? US was a major importer of oil from Venezuela until the became a SA basket case....hence the sanctions.

As for US/NATO during Russia with conventional force....NATO is a defensive treaty organization. You are simply repeating the Russia line that they must attack to defend themselves.

Yet another of the forum Russia-crats checks in.

Tell that to China that it is international waters. They are expanding their sphere of influence and it is clearly working.

You are talking how we wouldn't get involved in disruption to our spheres of influence, Venezuela is a great example, Cuba as well. We economically destroyed those two nations. Russia sending a few hundred troops to Venezuela isn't a threat to us. Russia can't threaten the US with conventional means and they know it. NATO on Russia's doorstep can. That's the difference.

Hey, you want to go to war to defend Ukraine? Because if you let Ukraine into NATO then suddenly that's what you are on the hook for. Brought to you by another internet chickenhawk.

 

[jnug]

Where and when does it stop. I am tired of being the global cop. Why should the US continue to have to spend blood and treasure to keep the world in order? Europe has the tools to deal with this problem, let them deal with it. If they want to defend Ukraine, let them. More importantly, tell them to stop economically supporting the antagonist.




Tell that to China that it is international waters. They are expanding their sphere of influence and it is clearly working.

You are talking how we wouldn't get involved in disruption to our spheres of influence, Venezuela is a great example, Cuba as well. We economically destroyed those two nations. Russia sending a few hundred troops to Venezuela isn't a threat to us. Russia can't threaten the US with conventional means and they know it. NATO on Russia's doorstep can. That's the difference.

Hey, you want to go to war to defend Ukraine? Because if you let Ukraine into NATO then suddenly that's what you are on the hook for. Brought to you by another internet chickenhawk.

I don't have to tell China anything. They know its International Waters. The Mafia and Batista economically destroyed Cuba. Venezuela is not an example at all. We were happily buying their oil until they started using the money to destabilize the region and persecute political enemies internally and started the country on its current path.

We did blunder when we recognized Juan Guaidó too early. Way to go Donnie. I am surprised you didn't get the guy killed you IDIOT.

And no, I do not want the US to go to war in Ukraine. Stop putting words in peoples mouths. Is a sign of your general debate WEAKNESS.

 

[bave]

And no, I do not want the US to go to war in Ukraine. Stop putting words in peoples mouths. Is a sign of your general debate WEAKNESS.

So wtf do you want to see the US do? You keep blabbering nonsense without ever making a point or taking a position.

 

[Luckyone]

Where and when does it stop. I am tired of being the global cop. Why should the US continue to have to spend blood and treasure to keep the world in order? Europe has the tools to deal with this problem, let them deal with it. If they want to defend Ukraine, let them. More importantly, tell them to stop economically supporting the antagonist.

Again, it is very simple, if you don't stand for something and defend what you stand for, then you are worthless to yourself and to everyone else.

If you are in it for yourself alone, then be prepared to be all alone with no one else caring about you and even treating you like a piece of ****

That is what life and humans are all about. You sow what you reap and if you sow nothing you reap nothing. Is that what you want out of life? To be left alone to fend for yourself with no friends, no one to be with you when you need something, no one to share the good and the bad? No one that cares and with whom you share with? A loner?

 

[jnug]

So wtf do you want to see the US do? You keep blabbering nonsense without ever making a point or taking a position.

I have stated several times what I want to see the US do. Your reading deficiency is showing AGAIN.

Do you read anything before you post? Do you know what you are posting as you are posting it? Do you know what you have posted after you have posted it?

Maybe Vlad is just paying you by the keyed word.

 

[bave]

I have stated several times what I want to see the US do. Your reading deficiency is showing AGAIN.

Do you read anything before you post? Do you know what you are posting as you are posting it? Do you know what you have posted after you have posted it?

Maybe Vlad is just paying you by the keyed word.

Ok, clear question then.

Should Ukraine be allowed to join NATO? What happens if they do tomorrow and immediately invoke Article 5? Are you sending troops?

 

[bave]

Again, it is very simple, if you don't stand for something and defend what you stand for, then you are worthless to yourself and to everyone else.

If you are in it for yourself alone, then be prepared to be all alone with no one else caring about you and even treating you like a piece of ****

That is what life and humans are all about. You sow what you reap and if you sow nothing you reap nothing. Is that what you want out of life? To be left alone to fend for yourself with no friends, no one to be with you when you need something, no one to share the good and the bad? No one that cares and with whom you share with? A loner?

Ukraine isn't our friend, that is my entire point. If we were talking about defending a longstanding ally like Britain, Canada, Australia etc then we can have another discussion. However we are talking about a nation we have never really had any real relationship with. The point here is that you have to evaluate who you make allliances with, why, and at what risk. Do we really have a lot in common with Ukraine? Are we really willing to risk American blood over it? Are you?

Also, if this is your line of reasoning, where does it stop? Do we stand up for every shitbox in Africa that is having problems? Do we fight every nation getting pushed around by China? Do we ignore the genocide in China because it is more economically convenient or do we go to war there as well?

We.can't.fix.the.world.

 

[jnug]

Ok, clear question then.

Should Ukraine be allowed to join NATO? What happens if they do tomorrow and immediately invoke Article 5? Are you sending troops?

An incredibly ignorant question. Ukraine could not join NATO tomorrow If it wanted to or if NATO wanted it. There are benchmarks that have to be met to even meet the NATO standards. Ukraine is not anywhere near there at this point. I would say it would be five years to a decade before they could even make the case that they were meeting the benchmarks.

 

[jnug]

Ukraine isn't our friend, that is my entire point. If we were talking about defending a longstanding ally like Britain, Canada, Australia etc then we can have another discussion. However we are talking about a nation we have never really had any real relationship with. The point here is that you have to evaluate who you make allliances with, why, and at what risk. Do we really have a lot in common with Ukraine? Are we really willing to risk American blood over it? Are you?

Also, if this is your line of reasoning, where does it stop? Do we stand up for every shitbox in Africa that is having problems? Do we fight every nation getting pushed around by China? Do we ignore the genocide in China because it is more economically convenient or do we go to war there as well?

We.can't.fix.the.world.

Nobody is suggesting we will. Another straw man argument. If it were not for circular arguments, straw man arguments, false narratives, rank ignorance and putting words in people's mouths you would have nothing to post.

 

[bave]

An incredibly ignorant question. Ukraine could not join NATO tomorrow If it wanted to or if NATO wanted it. There are benchmarks that have to be met to even meet the NATO standards. Ukraine is not anywhere near there at this point. I would say it would be five years to a decade before they could even make the case that they were meeting the benchmarks.

NATO can, and routinely does, ignore requirements. Answer the underlying question and stop trying to hide behind theoretical impediments. Should NATO allow a nation to join that will almost certainly immediately drag them into war?

How many years did you serve in uniform? Or are you just volunteering someone else for the firing line?

 

[jnug]

NATO can, and routinely does, ignore requirements. Answer the underlying question and stop trying to hide behind theoretical impediments. Should NATO allow a nation to join that will almost certainly immediately drag them into war?

How many years did you serve in uniform? Or are you just volunteering someone else for the firing line?

Citation please?

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

What I am stuck on is you will say what Russia and other nations have an interest or not, then turn around and say you "cannot read Putin's mind."

Understand that I consider NATO to be a relic and largely useless, but your "only point" boils down to holding NATO and Ukraine hostage to appease Russia. This is after Russia has already swiped Crimea.

I am trying to understand why you think that is wise, as if Russia will stop demanding things assuming NATO agreed with you.

It's wise because it costs us nothing. If Russia makes more demands we could point to our concession as proof of our goodwill. Putin is desperately seeking a narrative he can sell to the Russian people for exerting more power in Ukraine. If we clearly express that we have no desire to expand NATO to include Ukraine then we take away some of his propaganda. By refusing we are playing into his hands.

This is very much a propaganda war. Putin needs to sell this to the Russian people.

 

[bave]

Nobody is suggesting we will. Another straw man argument. If it were not for circular arguments, straw man arguments, false narratives, rank ignorance and putting words in people's mouths you would have nothing to post.

You are clearly in support of the idea that Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO at some point in the future, which then immediately puts US troops as risk. It is akin to letting South Korea or Taiwan join NATO. They are immediate flashpoints.

 

[bave]

Citation please?

Sure, miltiary spending requirements. The majority of NATO states routinely fail the mandatory requirements of sustainment.