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Why is private school performance better than public school

Reasons our public schools aren't working:

1] Being a grade school teacher use to be one of the few jobs a highly intelligent women could get. Now women can get any job they want so they generally opt for higher paying careers. So basically the pool of good teachers isn't as deep as it use to be.

2]They stopped teaching phonics for awhile. In most schools they have sort of brought phonics back but it's mixed up with whole language learning and it doesn't work as well as the old way. So basically they have forgotten how to teach kids to read. It's best to teach your child to read at home in my opinion.

3]New Math....not sure what this is but I know my first grader was using a calculator the other day. He is in the gifted class. First grade gifted kids don't need calculators they need to be learning the basics.

4]Parents aren't as involved as they should be. My kids bring home school work that has mistakes that the teachers didn't even mark wrong. So I check everything myself. If it's wrong I make them re-do it. My kids know if they do it wrong they will do it again. I have to set high standards myself 'cause the schools won't do it. My kids come home with stars and stickers on papers that are incorrect. They are in K & 1st and the teachers feel that at those ages it's best to encourage rather than discourage. I think it's best to teach them properly now so they don't have to re-learn later. My kids are told they're great 100 times a day at school. That's too much. If you hear great or good job 100 times a day what does it mean.....NOTHING.

My kids know when I tell them something is great it means something.

5]Most schools have gotten rid of tracking which means the bright kids are bored to death!!!! The teachers are teaching to the slowest kids in the class and the fastest kids are short changed and in many cases flat out ignored.

6]The schools are so busy being politically correct that they have forgotten their purpose.

7]Schools are expected to fix all problems regarding kids. Many kids are not disciplined properly at home and then teachers have to deal with the mess the kid has become in school. In most schools they now feed them breakfast. If you're not feeding your kid breakfast you aren't doing your job as a parent in my opinion.

8]Somewhere along the line someone decided it was wrong to force kids to memorize stuff so now they don't have to memorize anything. Many of the hands on projects in science class are total BS that while fun don't teach the kids anything. The memorization taught the kids!

9]Self Esteem is a high priority. It shouldn't be. Competition is frowned upon. It shouldn't be.


I'm sure there's more but it's too depressing to continue thinking about. Join you PTA and complain parents!
 
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bnr65432 said:
At the public High scool I attend I kow many dyslexic kids and they all do well due to tutors and classes that help them

Dyslexia, is a horrible disability. It makes kids feel inferior and lowers self esteem. They knew they are not dumb, but cannot understand why they are having such difficulties. Dyslexics are usually average or above in IQ. It takes forever to overcome, but once it is conquered, the dyslexic is usually VERY successful and hard working. The study habits are excellent, because they had to be to survive during their education.

I am speaking from experience. I am dyslexic myself. When I was in school, they didn't really know much about it. I did not get the proper tutoring, by High School I just learned to overcome it on my own. It runs in families and my seven year old was just diagnosed with it. He is getting the proper treatment and doing well. The private school he attends is very supportive. His teacher's aide tutors him two days a week.
 
1]" Being a grade school teacher use to be one of the few jobs a highly intelligent women could get. Now women can get any job they want so they generally opt for higher paying careers. So basically the pool of good teachers isn't as deep as it use to be".

You hit the nail right on the head........that is so true.
 
Mr. D said:
When kids don't learn in a public school it must be because of their clothes, their teachers, their school, global warming, curley fries or Al Quaida! It certainly couldn't be the attitude they bring to school with them from our culture. Luckily none of those things affect Asian immgrant kids that go to our public schools. They have some immunity that allows them to excel. It's called parents that hold them responisible for their behavior and attitude! What a concept! :roll:

My son wouldn't do his homework Wednesday and got grounded. I got him up early the next morning and he still would not comply. When we got to school, I sent him right to the principle and explained that he was in trouble at home too, but he should be in trouble at school for incomplete homework. She made him sit in the library and complete it.

I told his teacher, I want to know when he acts up at school, so he can be punished at home as well. We work together.
 
Don't know if it's already been mentioned or not... but one area I'd look into is the idea that parents who are willing to shell out money for a private school education are more likely to make sure their children are getting the most out of it.

There are possibly a handful of methodological refinements that some private schools are making use of, and there are issues with the NEA-- remember, the NEA was not founded to protect students, but to protect teachers-- and local school boards like to play Hell with the curriculum and funding priorities... but I'd say the biggest difference is parental involvement.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Don't know if it's already been mentioned or not... but one area I'd look into is the idea that parents who are willing to shell out money for a private school education are more likely to make sure their children are getting the most out of it.

There are possibly a handful of methodological refinements that some private schools are making use of, and there are issues with the NEA-- remember, the NEA was not founded to protect students, but to protect teachers-- and local school boards like to play Hell with the curriculum and funding priorities... but I'd say the biggest difference is parental involvement.

I'd like to say you're beating a dead horse, but alas, many people won't accept your logical theory about private schools and will continue to simply blame it on the teachers union.
 
Public schools have to take everybody...Private schools can choose.

Private schools usually cost money...a lot of money...one grade school here is $16,000 a year... that means you are going to have wealthier people sending their kids there adn that means that since they make more money, they probably have more education...

Teacher unions are strong...but it is generally NOT the teachers that reap the rewards, most times it is the school board officials and the special programs advisors and the union delegates and the lobbiests. Teachers here do better than most, and they don't have any share of cost medical...their salaries are not really that good.

Teachers can no longer be in PE and then teach math...this is unlawful under NCLB. Very Qualified teachers must teach within their field.

No teachers can be teaching on Emergency Credentials any longer either... Teacerhs must have a full teaching credential.

Standards are more strict yet salaries do not reflect training of teaching professionals...

Class sizes are getting larger...
There are less teacher aids...
Programs that help ELL/ESL are being cut...
The voucher agenda is hurting school performance in many areas...

NCLB sets standards that are unattainable for entire school polpulations... all populations and sub groups must meet certain standard scores or risk losing funding or being taken over by the state.

Funding to education nationally has been cut so that we can spend more on the military...our poor kids are hurting due to this so we can go kill other poor people while a bunch of rich people make the money and send their kids to private schools...haha, now that wasn't to political. And it is just a stupid theory that is partially right at best. It is a convoluted and multi-leveled issue.
 
BodiSatva said:
Funding to education nationally has been cut so that we can spend more on the military...our poor kids are hurting due to this so we can go kill other poor people while a bunch of rich people make the money and send their kids to private schools...haha, now that wasn't to political. And it is just a stupid theory that is partially right at best. It is a convoluted and multi-leveled issue.

Well from what I have read Catholic schools and many other private schools spend less money per kid than the average public school does. It's interesting to look at Japan as a case study. From what I can remember reading they spend less money per kid in their public school system. They are similar to the US in that the kids usually come from homes where both parents work and the kids watch just as much if not more TV than kids here in the US. Yet in competitions their best out perform our best....why?

I think it has much to do with our refusal to acknowledge that some kids are more school smart than other kids. We want them all to be the same even though they obviously aren't. So our schools more and more are trying to keep all the kids at a certain level.....Often this means spending alot more time helping the kids who are doing poorly and ignoring the kids that could and should be pushing further ahead.

I by no means think we should stop helping the kids who are doing poorly but we should figure out a way to do it without the bright kids being ignored. Since most schools got rid of tracking their poorer students are doing much better and the theory is that combining them in a class with kids of varying abilities is much better for them then having a class full of "slow kids." I understand that and I want those kids to do well. However while the amount of kids doing poorly is being reduced the amount of kids doing super has also reduced. The current system is bringing the bottem up but also dragging the top down.
 
BodiSatva said:
Public schools have to take everybody...Private schools can choose.

Private schools usually cost money...a lot of money...one grade school here is $16,000 a year... that means you are going to have wealthier people sending their kids there adn that means that since they make more money, they probably have more education...

Teacher unions are strong...but it is generally NOT the teachers that reap the rewards, most times it is the school board officials and the special programs advisors and the union delegates and the lobbiests. Teachers here do better than most, and they don't have any share of cost medical...their salaries are not really that good.

Teachers can no longer be in PE and then teach math...this is unlawful under NCLB. Very Qualified teachers must teach within their field.

No teachers can be teaching on Emergency Credentials any longer either... Teacerhs must have a full teaching credential.

Standards are more strict yet salaries do not reflect training of teaching professionals...

Class sizes are getting larger...
There are less teacher aids...
Programs that help ELL/ESL are being cut...
The voucher agenda is hurting school performance in many areas...

NCLB sets standards that are unattainable for entire school polpulations... all populations and sub groups must meet certain standard scores or risk losing funding or being taken over by the state.

Funding to education nationally has been cut so that we can spend more on the military...our poor kids are hurting due to this so we can go kill other poor people while a bunch of rich people make the money and send their kids to private schools...haha, now that wasn't to political. And it is just a stupid theory that is partially right at best. It is a convoluted and multi-leveled issue.


WOW, $16,000 per year? No way could I afford that. I pay $2,600 per year. I saved it and paid it in full last year. I'm saving again for next. They also accept monthly payments.
 
Mikkel said:
I'd like to say you're beating a dead horse, but alas, many people won't accept your logical theory about private schools and will continue to simply blame it on the teachers union.

Well, I can't say that the teacher's union isn't part of the problem. A lot of people seem to operate under the misapprehension that the NEA is some sort of regulatory body or advisory body, and that their job is to improve the process of education.

They're a professional association-- a union-- whose only job is to improve the wages and working conditions of our education professionals. There's nothing wrong with that... but people need to understand that they do know what their job is, and they're doing it.

We leave too much up to them, thinking that they're something they're not. Kinda like the AMA.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Well, I can't say that the teacher's union isn't part of the problem. A lot of people seem to operate under the misapprehension that the NEA is some sort of regulatory body or advisory body, and that their job is to improve the process of education.

They're a professional association-- a union-- whose only job is to improve the wages and working conditions of our education professionals. There's nothing wrong with that... but people need to understand that they do know what their job is, and they're doing it.

We leave too much up to them, thinking that they're something they're not. Kinda like the AMA.

I agree that we leave too much up to them, but we can't blame them for that.. we should blame ourselves and try to actually take some responsibility, but of course no one is willing to do that. The problem with simply blaming the teacher's union for the problems in public education is that you automatically block out the myriad of other problems plaguing the system. It's easy to point fingers, but no one is willing to actually try and fix the problems.
 
Mikkel said:
I agree that we leave too much up to them, but we can't blame them for that.. we should blame ourselves and try to actually take some responsibility, but of course no one is willing to do that.

Taking responsibility would involve actual work. Not to mention, of course, that you can't win elections by refusing to blame society's problems on your opposition.

Not to mention, we need only look at the sad state of political discourse in this country to realize that most people simply cannot tell the difference between "blame" and "responsibility" any longer.

Speaking of a need for education...

Mikkel said:
The problem with simply blaming the teacher's union for the problems in public education is that you automatically block out the myriad of other problems plaguing the system.

Agreed. Not to mention, it's hardly just to blame an organization for doing its job; they've done an admirable job of protecting the interests of our teachers.
 
Teacher's Unions

I spent 30 years as in upper positions in a large teacher's union. It is a well cultivated anti public school/pro voucher myth that teachers can't be fired! Teachers are fired or forced to resign all the time!! Much of it is done very quietly for the good of all! The major problem in getting rid of "bad" teachers is "bad" administrators. (1.) Bad administrators give tenure to poor teachers because they do not do their job providing enough supervision and observation. If you can't tell whether an employee will develop into a good teacher after student teaching and two or usually more years of teaching, quit your job as an administrator! (2.) If you have a bad tenured teacher, observe and document the poor teaching until you have the evidence to fire the teacher! Bad administrators are too lazy, timid, political or disorganized too do that! (3.) Bad administrators hire bad teachers without knowing if they left many other jobs because they were poor teachers. Then they keep or transfer them to save face!

Teacher's unions rightly expect that teachers are fired only for "cause" rather than whim and that they be treated fairly after an administrator's evaluations have said they were good teachers! Wouldn't you want the same fairness in your job? Teacher's unions don't want bad teachers in the profession anymore than parents do! It embarrasses good teachers and they have kids in school too! I told many poor teachers that the should leave the profession for their own good. Some good, intelligent people just can't teach and they will never be happy in the profession! Teachers resign and are fired regularly! Don't buy into the anti public school/pro voucher myth!
 
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Well said Mr. D.

I hear you talloulou, not every kid is "college material".

It is a fact...our school has only 5% of its students go directly to a four-year college.
Is that a reflection of teachers?
No.

It is a reflection of what then?
- Poor parenting?
- Not understanding importance of education level and pay scale that relates to choices and perhaps a better chance at happiness (not always of course)?
- MTV?
- Discipline...decline in respect...hip-hop?

"The current system is bringing the bottem up but also dragging the top down"

True.

Since most schools got rid of tracking their poorer students are doing much better and the theory is that combining them in a class with kids of varying abilities is much better for them then having a class full of "slow kids."

Tracking is a little different than full inclusion.
They can be combined but they are not automatically linked.
 
Mr. D said:
Teacher's Unions

I spent 30 years as in upper positions in a large teacher's union. It is a well cultivated anti public school/pro voucher myth that teachers can't be fired! Teachers are fired or forced to resign all the time!! Much of it is done very quietly for the good of all! The major problem in getting rid of "bad" teachers is "bad" administrators. (1.) Bad administrators give tenure to poor teachers because they do not do their job providing enough supervision and observation. If you can't tell whether an employee will develop into a good teacher after student teaching and two or usually more years of teaching, quit your job as an administrator! (2.) If you have a bad tenured teacher, observe and document the poor teaching until you have the evidence to fire the teacher! Bad administrators are too lazy, timid, political or disorganized too do that! (3.) Bad administrators hire bad teachers without knowing if they left many other jobs because they were poor teachers. Then they keep or transfer them to save face!

Teacher's unions rightly expect that teachers are fired only for "cause" rather than whim and that they be treated fairly after an administrator's evaluations have said they were good teachers! Wouldn't you want the same fairness in your job? Teacher's unions don't want bad teachers in the profession anymore than parents do! It embarrasses good teachers and they have kids in school too! I told many poor teachers that the should leave the profession for their own good. Some good, intelligent people just can't teach and they will never be happy in the profession! Teachers resign and are fired regularly! Don't buy into the anti public school/pro voucher myth!

Teachers Unions are like any other.They want the highest pay for the least work for their memebers.
In the 50's & 60's Public school teachers controled ther classrooms,the halls even the playgrounds. Now days they only want some responsibility for their classrooms and thats wth an assistant and only 12 kids.
New York city spends millions of dollars a year on teachers it can't fire . It has a 200 page teachr cotract designed to protect teachers.
 
Now days they only want some responsibility for their classrooms and thats wth an assistant and only 12 kids.

Lots of times I put on the LOL :lol: sign and I don't literally LAUGH OUT LOUD! But I did with this one. A statement that is Foolish at best.

You are a teacher then?
You have this attitude?
You know how many teachers with this attitude specifically?
Explain how you became aware of this fact with data please...

This is what then?

An assumption?
Speculation?
Simply a ridiculously ignorant statement?

It is not looking good regardless, for though there are exceptions to most every rule, I am sure that if you talked to teachers you would understand things a little better. ;)

take it easy JOHNYJ
 
BodiSatva said:
Lots of times I put on the LOL :lol: sign and I don't literally LAUGH OUT LOUD! But I did with this one. A statement that is Foolish at best.

You are a teacher then?
You have this attitude?
You know how many teachers with this attitude specifically?
Explain how you became aware of this fact with data please...

This is what then?

An assumption?
Speculation?
Simply a ridiculously ignorant statement?

It is not looking good regardless, for though there are exceptions to most every rule, I am sure that if you talked to teachers you would understand things a little better. ;)

take it easy JOHNYJ


I agree, I don't know where JOHNYJ is getting this stuff. My aunt (who finally got a job this semester) now teaches a class of 40, half 4th graders and half 5th graders. These are the kids who were so out of control that they specifically created an extra class for. No assistant, completely blind entering halfway through the year, she has to figure out how to deal with these kids, and believe me, with some of the stories she's told me, I doubt I could handle it.

And she's happy to just have a job. If it weren't for the teacher's union, she probably wouldn't have one right now.
 
JOHNYJ said:
Now days they only want some responsibility for their classrooms and thats wth an assistant and only 12 kids.
New York city spends millions of dollars a year on teachers it can't fire . It has a 200 page teachr cotract designed to protect teachers.

So what color is the sky in the world you live in?

I retired four years ago and taught six classes 31 to 36 kids with scapels in their hands! No assistant, minimal equipment and weanie support from administration! I had 65% Asian parents who were tremendously supportive and showered me with gifts at Christmas! I was luckily to have many Asian American students! Their parents expected me to provide a great learning opportunity, but they expected their children to bear the responsibility of learning! What a concept! How unAmerican!

I negotiated the contracts for 1500 teachers and I'm here to tell you many teachers were fired and many forced to resign to avoid firing. Not being able to fire teachers is a myth anti public school people love to hang on to! How dumb would you have to be to believe any teachers contract says they can never be fired! Duh! I wrote much of the language in our contract. What Board of Education would agree to that without being run out of town! People love their ideological myths! I've seen bad teachers keep their jobs because weak lazy principals wouldn't document poor teaching or district administrators would back the principal. Good teachers hate to see lazy teachers give the profession a bad name and ammunition to people like you! As a high level Union guy, I told a few teachers to shape up or get out! If I were your principal I'd be after you too! Teacher unions insure "due process" to tenured teachers who have been already been judged as good teachers, they don't try to cover up bad teaching! Without tenure there is no academic freedom for teaching! The principal or district could force a person to teach the Earth is Flat and Hitler was a hero or be fired! Silly examples, but the concept is true! In many countries when a dictatorship takes over the teachers are the first to be shot! Tenure requires the firing of a teacher to be done in broad daylight for the community to see whether it is about poor teaching or you just crossed the principal, or you belong to the wrong church! In the 1970's my school district was well know for hiring conservative, protestant churchy types from little church teaching colleges! They then became the conservative principals of the 80's! Then the Chinese and Koreans moved in and now you better have good college grades and teach to a high standard because their kids are going to go Stanford and UCLA and they value education highly! If you are a good teacher they love and support you, if not they'll visit you with concerns until you improve your teaching or transfer out! You get the schools you demand!

Judge schools not by being private or public, but by what kids learn! Not by the facts the memorize, but how they learn to think critically and solve problems. What a concept!
 
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Mr.D said:
Judge schools not by being private or public, but by what kids learn! Not by the facts the memorize, but how they learn to think critically and solve problems. What a concept!

Well then we are screwed...because that is all I've seen: here memorize this, read this, test on Tuesday...in-out-and on you go....I am reviewing the same things in my Junior level classes as my sister who is in the fourth grade in a private school....I dislike how a teacher will start a new subject with the phrase "you might remember this stuff from when you had it in _________grade".....we learn to regurtiate information very well but the actual information doesn't get stored in long term memory....
 
Caine said:
I agree with this line of reasoning.

If I could afford it (and if I had kids...lol), I would put my kids in a private school (if their snooty asses would accept my kids), because they do give children the opportunity to focus more on education instead of class room disturbances, and most of the children there are there to learn, not because they have to be.

" . . . . opportunity to focus more on education instead of class room disturbances . . . . . ."

So who in the hell's fault is this? The teacher's, the school's, or the parents in the community? If parents don't want public schools with disruptions then they should discipline their children and demand the school not put up with disruptive kids. In 31 years of teaching I never allowed disruption in my classroom and if I had parents would have been at the school with complaints as they should be. You get the schools you will accept! My school was 65% Asian students. Their parents support teachers tremendously and demand they give their kids a excellent opportunity to learn, but the student is first responsible to behave properly and learn, not blame the school for their hip hop, gangster rap values! :roll:
 
goligoth said:
Well then we are screwed...because that is all I've seen: here memorize this, read this, test on Tuesday...in-out-and on you go....I am reviewing the same things in my Junior level classes as my sister who is in the fourth grade in a private school....I dislike how a teacher will start a new subject with the phrase "you might remember this stuff from when you had it in _________grade".....we learn to regurtiate information very well but the actual information doesn't get stored in long term memory....

Not good teaching!

Teaching kids to think is more difficult and creates more possiblity of parental criticism so many schools and teachers are uncomfortable with it! If I'm going to teach you to think and critically evaluate you may have a thought your parents don't agree with and then the sky will fall and you'll become terrorist! Then I'm going to get called a liberal, or commie, or something dangerous to society! Then the liberal parents send in notes saying "What a great, interesting topic, we all talked about it at dinner! You've really got my son thinking! Good job!", and the conservative send in notes saying "Are you a Christian! Are you anti American? Thinking about such things isn't appropriate for this age level!"
 
I agree. It seems to be a tough line between saying someone's views and trying to get people to think critically. Thus the whole thing with the guy(gal?) who got fired for asking his kids to think about whether Bush's speech sounded like Hitlers. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet.
 
The problem is that many parents want to blame the decline of our interest in education, values and civility on public schools and teachers. What a wonderfully convenient, simplistic cope out! Our public schools reflect our culture like a mirror, they don't create it!

My wife has two bother's. One is a twin. All my wife's nephews and nieces of both brothers came from good supportive families and went to church private schools. Not one could make it in college. All of them have had problems in life with money and marriages. One married and then decided to face the fact he was gay and divorced! We had know that since he was seven! Except for the gay nephew, who is a very nice young man, they are all very narrowminded, self righteous and look down their noses at anyone who is not just like them! Both my wife's brothers families have no time for anyone not in their church group! We'll see you at Christmas for a required ritual, then go back to Sodom where the godless liberals live! It's a red state blue state thing! We're just those people who don't understand!

(Like the Muslim who yelled to the Jew as they walked together through Heaven, "Who are those people in that line over there?" The Jew answered back, "Quiet! They are Born Again Christians and we don't want to upset them! They think they are the only ones up here!")

My two son's went to public schools and were not taken to church. One was born developmentally disabled and has had serious problems in life because he just can't cope and makes poor decisions. No place for him in this world. The other one went to college and has a nice family and is doing well!

So what's the point?

The point is I don't have all the answers, but sending a kid to a private school doesn't guarrantee a trouble free future. Life's just a little more complicated than that! Everyone doesn't get a fair deal by the Wizard of Oz! Ask Christopher Reeve's son, now that he's lost both parents! Oh, I know all the religious answers! Save them please!

Schools should be judged not as being Private or Public, but by what you see kids learning! If your local school is crap! Organize and go to school board meeting and let them know if they want to be reelected you want discipline and an opportunity for kids to learn instead of just whining! School boards are politicians! Hit them in the votes! Ask a "good" retired teacher to run for the school board! Get off the couch and run yourself! You get the schools you demand! Getting good schools is like discipling children! It takes consistent, hard work before it pays off big!

I'm so sick of the lazy ideology of hating public schools to hide from the fact our society has poor values! I guess public schools have created gangster rap, hip hop "bitches and ho's" values, violent video games and crap TV shows that exhalt lying and backstabbing like "Survivor"! The entertainment only industry produces what sells, what are culture wants! Blaming Hollywood is the supreme cop out! So abandon the public schools and send your kids to a private school of perfection, but if you think that's going to protect them or you, surprise!

I haven't said it for a while so here goes:

Denial and just a river in Egypt!

My favorite bumper sticker:

Home School, and I'll complain!
 
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MrD. said:
I guess public schools have created gangster rap, hip hop "bitches and ho's" values, violent video games and crap TV shows that exhalt lying and backstabbing like "Survivor"!

Don't forget the Paris Hilton *brain stimulating* show. :roll:




*this is saracsm*
 
goligoth said:
Don't forget the Paris Hilton *brain stimulating* show. :roll:




*this is saracsm*

Yup, and they are canceling The West Wing! I guess it required too long an attention span. I have to admit you have to pay attention or the dialogue goes over your head. I like smart writing on shows. I guess they should have had some of the characters eating maggots or doing some immature backbiting to keep people's attention like the othr mindless crap! We should be ready for the Three Stooges again! If people didn't eat and watch junk, it wouldn't be produced. The problem is us!

That's what the "Sesame Street mentality" did to us! It taught children that they could only maintain an attention span when everything is changing and moving in a constantly entertaining way! That false belief was carried right into the classroom lowering our attention spans as a self fulfilling prophecy! It was the beginning of edu-tainment! Learning must always be fun! Now we are a sound bite society! If you can't get your message across in 15 seconds they look away like a cocker spaniel will when you read it a poem! Even football games have to have constant noises and flashes in the graphics to hold the viewers attention. If everything is entertaining we don't need motivation or values! It's all fun! If it's not fun, Johnny will get bored! Heavens! Teachers should always try to make learning interesting and fun, but it's a good thing to learn that whatever is at the bottom of your list of things you want to do will always be called "work"! It's part of human nature! You can never escape work! Even billionaires need to have boring meetings with accountants! Work!
 
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