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Why is private school performance better than public school

alphieb

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Why is private school performance better than public school performance? The teachers usually get paid less due to lack of government funding. However, istep and SAT show a dramatic differences in favor of the private school.
 

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alphieb said:


Why is private school performance better than public school performance? The teachers usually get paid less due to lack of government funding. However, istep and SAT show a dramatic differences in favor of the private school.

Before any of our liberal Michael Moore sheep start claiming it is that private schools get more funding (hence we should raise taxes :roll: ) keep in mind that Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they rank near the very bottom in performance. It ISN'T about money, no matter what the phony populist rhetoric of the left says.

There is one big, fat answer to the main question: Public schools are controlled by labor unions.

Teacher unions like the AFT and the NEA have ruined the public school system by forcing the system to prioritize catering to teachers and getting them extra cushy benefits (like having ALL of their school debt paid off at taxpayer expense) over the quality of the students' education.

Teachers' unions have used their mafia strong-arming tactics to abuse the system into a total state of dysfunction. One great example was when they got a teacher who had molested students FULL salary compensation while in prison AND they wouldn't let the school fill the vacant position while he was gone. There have been similar cases with drug-dealing teachers.

And since unions place seniority over anything and everything, a totally unqualified gym teacher with seniority can be forced into a job teaching math over qualified candidates.

The violations are so grotesque that you might think you are reading them from some conspiracy theory-toting liberal, but the list of abuses is very real and it is enormous.
 

Caine

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aquapub said:
Before any of our liberal Michael Moore sheep start claiming it is that private schools get more funding (hence we should raise taxes :roll: ) keep in mind that Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they rank near the very bottom in performance. It ISN'T about money, no matter what the phony populist rhetoric of the left says.

There is one big, fat answer to the main question: Public schools are controlled by labor unions.

Teacher unions like the AFT and the NEA have ruined the public school system by forcing the system to prioritize catering to teachers and getting them extra cushy benefits (like having ALL of their school debt paid off at taxpayer expense) over the quality of the students' education.

Teachers' unions have used their mafia strong-arming tactics to abuse the system into a total state of dysfunction. One great example was when they got a teacher who had molested students FULL salary compensation while in prison AND they wouldn't let the school fill the vacant position while he was gone. There have been similar cases with drug-dealing teachers.

And since unions place seniority over anything and everything, a totally unqualified gym teacher with seniority can be forced into a job teaching math over qualified candidates.

The violations are so grotesque that you might think you are reading them from some conspiracy theory-toting liberal, but the list of abuses is very real and it is enormous.
Im not saying your lying.. but I'd like to see some of this info.. im curious on the issue, could you provide me with some sources of information for my research?

And, I don't appretiate how this seemingly NON partisan debate turned partisan within two posts.... really not a good way to start a debate, but I'll ignore that for now.
 

alphieb

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aquapub said:
Before any of our liberal Michael Moore sheep start claiming it is that private schools get more funding (hence we should raise taxes :roll: ) keep in mind that Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they rank near the very bottom in performance. It ISN'T about money, no matter what the phony populist rhetoric of the left says.

There is one big, fat answer to the main question: Public schools are controlled by labor unions.

Teacher unions like the AFT and the NEA have ruined the public school system by forcing the system to prioritize catering to teachers and getting them extra cushy benefits (like having ALL of their school debt paid off at taxpayer expense) over the quality of the students' education.

Teachers' unions have used their mafia strong-arming tactics to abuse the system into a total state of dysfunction. One great example was when they got a teacher who had molested students FULL salary compensation while in prison AND they wouldn't let the school fill the vacant position while he was gone. There have been similar cases with drug-dealing teachers.

And since unions place seniority over anything and everything, a totally unqualified gym teacher with seniority can be forced into a job teaching math over qualified candidates.

The violations are so grotesque that you might think you are reading them from some conspiracy theory-toting liberal, but the list of abuses is very real and it is enormous.

Beautiful,

I love your post!!!!!! My son goes to a private Catholic School. The average salary is 24,000 annual. Their SAT scores are WAY higher than the public school. Their standards are much higher.

A School (public) that was built in the seventies in my home town is being torn down so that they can build a BRAND NEW ONE at my tax expense.
 

bandaidwoman

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not necessarily.

Here in my county( Rockdale county) the public magnet schools average SAT scores are almost always over 1300 for the graduates and outperforms all the private schools in placement in prestigious universities for the sciences. (MIT, Caltech, Harvard, etc.) ( every year they have a Westinghouse winner or international sceince winner etc.) I do think public schools have better access to good science labs over the private schools who provide better liberal arts studies. My younger brother did four years of high school in a New York public school. His physics teacher designed the antennae on voyager, his chemistry teacher was an ex Cornell Medical school professor and his spanish teacher came from Spain. He went on to Princeton and graduated valedictorian. At least 50 or more of his graduating class of 247 went on to ivey league schools and the average SAT was 1280. It was a good mixture of blacks, jews, latins and whites so it wasn't some exclusive "white" upper class neighborhood. The school where he went had a teacher's union and the Magnet schools here in Rockdale county are also unionized so I am not sure if that is a causative variable. (I am generally anti union.) I'm not sure what made it such a good public system there and here, (especially when the surrounding counties in Georgia suck.)

By the way found a article that says public schools are better

http://educhange.blogspot.com/2005/06/public-schools-perform-better-than.html

quote from the study provided by the link:

Our findings suggest that it is time for a critical reexamination of common assumptions regarding the effectiveness of public and private schools. As market-style reforms change the public school landscape, prompting many to call for various forms of privatization of schooling options, it is important to examine the evidence regarding whether private schools are, indeed, more effective than public schools. In our study, once we accounted for the fact that private schools tend to have higher-SES students than public schools, we actually found just the opposite of what was expected: public schools outperformed private schools within each SES quartile.
SES is socioeconomic status

I think we also have to remember that it is mostly middle to upper middle class children who go to private schools.
 
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Technocratic_Utilitarian

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As someone said, one major problem are the teacher's unions. Unions can be a good idea, but not to the extent these have gotten. Those need to be fixed, most definitly. You can hardly fire incompetent teachers. However, that is not the only problem, and some of the problems are quite intrinsic to the concept of a mass-education.

Private schools do not have to accept everyone; public schools do. Public schools are not allowed to cherrypick students that are easier to deal with, smarter, come from better homes and areas. Many, but not all, private schools do this. Public schools must also adhere to rights of teachers and students, while, to a lesser extent, private schools do. Mass education comes with problems of a mass education--you have to deal with all kinds and you cannot simply say: no, you can't come here. Private schools typically are smaller and service fewer individuals, and they like it this way, since it is one factor that helps to keep their stats up compared to public schools. As an example, when taking standardized tests, many of the "retarded," slow, or problem children have to take the same assessments as the good or average kids, therefore, the test results go down.

Another problem is that problems in results are not always the fault of the teachers or the schools, but the problems of the students and the parents. I ahve said time and time again that many kids simply do not study. Half of the kids in my biology class in COLLEGE--people 19-20 years old, fail consistantly, the basic 103 level multiple choice questions. This is not the fault of the institution. They are just stupid, careless, or ignorant to the subject's importance in life. The parents are also to blame. Many do not have time for their children's needs in school, and in highschool, parent identification with and help for the child declines compared to grammar school. This is a problem.
Then you also have the case where parents are incapable of doing the type of work modern students have, since they didn't have it. It is even changing in my life. My school never taught what it's teaching now in 7th grade. I didn't even have physics or trig.

The best teachers cannot help massive of kids who don't care, don't want to learn, and get no help at home. This can easily be avoided or minimized at private instititutions, since the people who send their kids to these schools oft pay big bucks and care more, and they damn sure make their kids work because of the $$$. Not everyone can compete with this mentality.

Underspending is a problem in some areas, and this combines with administrative and municipal overburden. However, this is not the only cause of inferior scores and results; misapplication and misappropriation of funds is a problem. Another problem is that people have far too much say in what goes on in schools. MOre power ought to go to educational technorats in the field and the classroom instead of allowing parent/community or far-flung officials to say what ought be done and then ride off into the sunset patting themselves on the back. IF you want to see an example of this problem, look at Kansas and Dover PA.
 

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Caine

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
As someone said, one major problem are the teacher's unions. Unions can be a good idea, but not to the extent these have gotten. Those need to be fixed, most definitly. You can hardly fire incompetent teachers. However, that is not the only problem, and some of the problems are quite intrinsic to the concept of a mass-education.

Private schools do not have to accept everyone; public schools do. Public schools are not allowed to cherrypick students that are easier to deal with, smarter, come from better homes and areas. Many, but not all, private schools do this. Public schools must also adhere to rights of teachers and students, while, to a lesser extent, private schools do. Mass education comes with problems of a mass education--you have to deal with all kinds and you cannot simply say: no, you can't come here. Private schools typically are smaller and service fewer individuals, and they like it this way, since it is one factor that helps to keep their stats up compared to public schools. As an example, when taking standardized tests, many of the "retarded," slow, or problem children have to take the same assessments as the good or average kids, therefore, the test results go down.

Another problem is that problems in results are not always the fault of the teachers or the schools, but the problems of the students and the parents. I ahve said time and time again that many kids simply do not study. Half of the kids in my biology class in COLLEGE--people 19-20 years old, fail consistantly, the basic 103 level multiple choice questions. This is not the fault of the institution. They are just stupid, careless, or ignorant to the subject's importance in life. The parents are also to blame. Many do not have time for their children's needs in school, and in highschool, parent identification with and help for the child declines compared to grammar school. This is a problem.
Then you also have the case where parents are incapable of doing the type of work modern students have, since they didn't have it. It is even changing in my life. My school never taught what it's teaching now in 7th grade. I didn't even have physics or trig.

The best teachers cannot help massive of kids who don't care, don't want to learn, and get no help at home. This can easily be avoided or minimized at private instititutions, since the people who send their kids to these schools oft pay big bucks and care more, and they damn sure make their kids work because of the $$$. Not everyone can compete with this mentality.

Underspending is a problem in some areas, and this combines with administrative and municipal overburden. However, this is not the only cause of inferior scores and results; misapplication and misappropriation of funds is a problem. Another problem is that people have far too much say in what goes on in schools. MOre power ought to go to educational technorats in the field and the classroom instead of allowing parent/community or far-flung officials to say what ought be done and then ride off into the sunset patting themselves on the back. IF you want to see an example of this problem, look at Kansas and Dover PA.
I agree with this line of reasoning.

If I could afford it (and if I had kids...lol), I would put my kids in a private school (if their snooty asses would accept my kids), because they do give children the opportunity to focus more on education instead of class room disturbances, and most of the children there are there to learn, not because they have to be.
 

Mikkel

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aquapub said:
Before any of our liberal Michael Moore sheep start claiming it is that private schools get more funding (hence we should raise taxes :roll: ) keep in mind that Washington D.C. schools are the most over-funded schools in the country and they rank near the very bottom in performance. It ISN'T about money, no matter what the phony populist rhetoric of the left says.

There is one big, fat answer to the main question: Public schools are controlled by labor unions.

Teacher unions like the AFT and the NEA have ruined the public school system by forcing the system to prioritize catering to teachers and getting them extra cushy benefits (like having ALL of their school debt paid off at taxpayer expense) over the quality of the students' education.

Teachers' unions have used their mafia strong-arming tactics to abuse the system into a total state of dysfunction. One great example was when they got a teacher who had molested students FULL salary compensation while in prison AND they wouldn't let the school fill the vacant position while he was gone. There have been similar cases with drug-dealing teachers.

And since unions place seniority over anything and everything, a totally unqualified gym teacher with seniority can be forced into a job teaching math over qualified candidates.

The violations are so grotesque that you might think you are reading them from some conspiracy theory-toting liberal, but the list of abuses is very real and it is enormous.
You can't just brush off lack of funding that easily. It is true that there are many school districts are well funded, but that's just it. It is essentially district by district. Only 9% of funding for public schools comes from the federal government. While there are many great public schools out there that have enough funding and do suffer from a corrupt teachers union (not that I think our teachers don't deserve a little more money for the work they do), but there are just as many, probably more, that lack the necessary funds. In Cleveland City Schools the student to teacher ratio is at the atrocious level of 100-1. 100-1!!!!

And they have willing teachers to be employed (including my aunt who has recently been getting her masters degree at John Carroll, and in the mean time working at minimum wage at the Home Depot). This is a simple case of not enough money. If the students can't even get the materials they need and the teachers can't control the students because that ratio is so high, the answer is to raise taxes and increase funding for the school.

Blaming it on the teacher's union is the easy and moronic solution to the problem. There's a larger picture here you aren't getting. Lack of funding is hurting our schools as much, if not more, than a corrupt union.
 
H

hipsterdufus

alphieb said:


Why is private school performance better than public school performance? The teachers usually get paid less due to lack of government funding. However, istep and SAT show a dramatic differences in favor of the private school.
Not all private schools perform better than public schools. Many charter schools do no better than their public school counterparts.

I can talk at length about higher tier private schools. We interview and test EVERY child before they are accepted. We can deny students with low test scores, learning disabilites and a myriad of other reasons.

Consequently, we begin with students that are ready and able to learn.

Public schools, with the exception of highly successful magent programs, don't have that "luxury." By law - every child is has a right to a public education - so the pool is much wider.
 
H

hipsterdufus

alphieb said:
Beautiful,

I love your post!!!!!! My son goes to a private Catholic School. The average salary is 24,000 annual. Their SAT scores are WAY higher than the public school. Their standards are much higher.

A School (public) that was built in the seventies in my home town is being torn down so that they can build a BRAND NEW ONE at my tax expense.
I taught in Catholic schools for 10 years and I couldn't disagree with you more.

Again, it's the fact that Catholic schools do not have to admit students that they don't want to admit. That's why, on average, their scores are higher.

If you put the student body of the worst public school into a Catholic school environment, I would venture to say the students would perform WORSE.

Why? - many Catholic school teachers aren't degreed educators. There were many nuns that taught where I worked that new nothing of current pedagogy or curriculum. They would fail miserably in any other environment.
 
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I think private school produces better results because the environment is more liberal then public schools which are kind of like mind factories.
There are often less students in a room and plus those teachers are PAID while public school teachers are often PLAYED cause they have to reach all of these kids who dont fit in the room and make sure they pass standardized tests before tehy can really get the attention they need as individuals.
 

bandaidwoman

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Mikkel said:
Blaming it on the teacher's union is the easy and moronic solution to the problem. There's a larger picture here you aren't getting. Lack of funding is hurting our schools as much, if not more, than a corrupt union.
I agree.

I also agree with Hipsterdufus that private schools have already screened out the more capable people. In medicine, we call this selective population bias ( studies select a group of people ( race, sex etc.) that are felt to show favorable statistics for a drug... the classic is the new heart failure medicine BIDIL for blacks only, the drug's components in past studies showed no favorable effects when studies combined blacks and whites.)

By the way, I do have my daughter enrolled in private school at the prek level since they teach spanish, japanese and chinese. Something the private schools do not offer at such a young age, and as Hipsterdufus said, she was tested extensively and interviewed before she was accepted. (they obviously wanted someone of high caliber without learning disabilities etc.)

I hope to sequay her into the public schools later in junior high (since rockdale county has great public and magnet schools compared to rest of georgia) since I am skeptical about this private school's upper science curriculum. I will continue speaking chinese to her but hope she keeps up her spanish later.
 
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H

hipsterdufus

bandaidwoman said:
I agree.

I hope to sequay her into the public schools later in junior high (since rockdale county has great public and magnet schools compared to rest of georgia) since I am skeptical about this private school's upper science curriculum. I will continue speaking chinese to her but hope she keeps up her spanish later.
That sounds like a good plan - Spanish and Chinese are the best languages to learn these days. Research shows that students can learn as many languages as they are exposed to at an early age. Children are born with the ability to speak ALL languages. So if there is a way to keep them both going (Chinese and Spanish) that would be optimal.
 
H

hipsterdufus

Employee_of_the_Month said:
I think private school produces better results because the environment is more liberal then public schools which are kind of like mind factories.
There are often less students in a room and plus those teachers are PAID while public school teachers are often PLAYED cause they have to reach all of these kids who dont fit in the room and make sure they pass standardized tests before tehy can really get the attention they need as individuals.
That is very true.

It could also be fixed if public schools were able to get to smaller student - teacher ratios. The ideal ratio would be 14 - 1 or below.

Also - NCLB really ties the Public School teacher's hands. There is no "one size fits all" model for teaching. And testing math and reading only is one small part of a student's cognitive development.

The people that are benefitting the most from NCLB are the test makers - McGraw Hill and others.

Many school districts have figured this out and are opting out of federal funding to be able to teach better.
 
H

hipsterdufus

aquapub said:
Teacher unions like the AFT and the NEA have ruined the public school system by forcing the system to prioritize catering to teachers and getting them extra cushy benefits (like having ALL of their school debt paid off at taxpayer expense) over the quality of the students' education.
If you want to attract and retain good teachers, you have to pay them. The biggest benefit for most public school teachers is that they can afford to work there and know that they will be secure in retirement, and their families will be covered by health insurance.

I wish I had the same benefits at my teaching job. Since I don't, I work two extra jobs for the same type of benefits.

aquapub said:
One great example was when they got a teacher who had molested students FULL salary compensation while in prison AND they wouldn't let the school fill the vacant position while he was gone. There have been similar cases with drug-dealing teachers.
On the surface this seems odd. What is your source?

aquapub said:
And since unions place seniority over anything and everything, a totally unqualified gym teacher with seniority can be forced into a job teaching math over qualified candidates.
Do you have a source for this?

Also, keep in mind that you don't have to have a teaching degree to teach in most religious schools.
 

alphieb

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bandaidwoman said:
I agree.

I also agree with Hipsterdufus that private schools have already screened out the more capable people. In medicine, we call this selective population bias ( studies select a group of people ( race, sex etc.) that are felt to show favorable statistics for a drug... the classic is the new heart failure medicine BIDIL for blacks only, the drug's components in past studies showed no favorable effects when studies combined blacks and whites.)

By the way, I do have my daughter enrolled in private school at the prek level since they teach spanish, japanese and chinese. Something the private schools do not offer at such a young age, and as Hipsterdufus said, she was tested extensively and interviewed before she was accepted. (they obviously wanted someone of high caliber without learning disabilities etc.)

I hope to sequay her into the public schools later in junior high (since rockdale county has great public and magnet schools compared to rest of georgia) since I am skeptical about this private school's upper science curriculum. I will continue speaking chinese to her but hope she keeps up her spanish later.
My son is learning Spanish in Kindergarten and retaining it very well. The Spanish teacher is from Spain and has a masters degree. She teaches at the high school and teaches at the grade school two days a week.

My son was tested extensively to before entering and fell way below their standards. They made an exception and allowed him to enter anyway. At first, he struggled, but now he is doing excellent. His teacher is very impressed with his progress. I work with him every night and he is reading sight words nicely. I think parents that put their kids in private schools are more dedicated and that allows the students to excel also.

A lot of the teachers only have a bachelors degree and that surprised me. The math SAT scores leave a little to be desired. Math teachers want more money so they in turn work in the public schools. I though about switching him in high school to the public sector, but I think I will hire a math tutor. I don't want to rip him from his friends and environment after all of that time.
 

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It has to be because schools are so exclusive. I went to Kellenberg Memorial, a Catholic school, and I did horrible there. I'm now going to public school and I'm doing a lot better. Kellenberg would kick you out if you failed two subjects so that probably helps a bit.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
It has to be because schools are so exclusive. I went to Kellenberg Memorial, a Catholic school, and I did horrible there. I'm now going to public school and I'm doing a lot better. Kellenberg would kick you out if you failed two subjects so that probably helps a bit.
Since I have a son enrolled in a Catholic School, I'm curious...why are you doing better in the public school? Is it easier, or are the teachers better? I got a letter with some information on his school rules and they are strict. They informed me that they could dismiss a child on will if they are not up to standards. They are about excellence, which I like and I have seen a big difference in my sons behavior for the best.

Like I said, he tested below their standards, but they allowed him to enter anyway, hence I paid his tuition up front in full and made a donation to the school. However, I fear they will dismiss him, even though he has made a lot of progress, I think he might be dyslexic (I am) and it runs in families. I am having him tested with a psychologist Jan. 3rd.

It truly believe is a better class of people and that would be a good influence on him.

I would appreciate your input since you have been down this road.

Thanks
 

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I would like to have any other persons opinion also that has been to private school, this is important to me, because it is my sons education. Take into consideration, he may be dyslexic. Which would be best for him?

Thanks
 

Mikkel

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alphieb said:
I would like to have any other persons opinion also that has been to private school, this is important to me, because it is my sons education. Take into consideration, he may be dyslexic. Which would be best for him?

Thanks
I went to a secular private school in cleveland and I can tell you right off the bat that I recieved a MUCH better education there than I ever would have in the Cleveland Hts public school system. If you want to know which is better, truly, it depends on your school district. In my case, there were overcrowded classrooms and not too many great test scores.

The bottom line is, if you're willing to pay the cash, your kid will recieve at least a decent, if not good, education at a private school (it also varies from one school to another, but the worst private schools are still miles ahead of the worst public schools). Know your public school district as well, becuase it could be very well just as good, if not better, than the private school you're looking at.

If you're worried that your child won't get the attention he needs for something like dyslexia, I'd lean more towards the private school myself.
 
H

hipsterdufus

alphieb said:
I would like to have any other persons opinion also that has been to private school, this is important to me, because it is my sons education. Take into consideration, he may be dyslexic. Which would be best for him?

Thanks
There are no easy answers. It really depends on the school.

A lot of public schools have extensive training in dealing with dyslexia. Some private ones do as well. The school I work at has a reading specialist and she works one on one with the students to overcome this. That wasn't the case in Catholic Schools I taught at and other Private Schools.

My dyslexic cousin graduated public HS w/out ever being able to read!

I would make that issue a main point as I interview the schools.
 

alphieb

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Mikkel said:
I went to a secular private school in cleveland and I can tell you right off the bat that I recieved a MUCH better education there than I ever would have in the Cleveland Hts public school system. If you want to know which is better, truly, it depends on your school district. In my case, there were overcrowded classrooms and not too many great test scores.

The bottom line is, if you're willing to pay the cash, your kid will recieve at least a decent, if not good, education at a private school (it also varies from one school to another, but the worst private schools are still miles ahead of the worst public schools). Know your public school district as well, becuase it could be very well just as good, if not better, than the private school you're looking at.

If you're worried that your child won't get the attention he needs for something like dyslexia, I'd lean more towards the private school myself.
They have a small amount of federal funding for kids with LD's. I'm just not sure if it is better than the public school. The public school here have substantially lower istep scores than the private. Public school pass rate was 68% and the private school was 86%. Neither scores are excellent, but obviously I'm more impressed with Vincennes Catholic Schools.

My son is six, at least his dyslexia is getting nipped in the bud NOW. I graduated in 1992. Dyslexia, when I was in grade school was not diagnosed. That came later, more in the late 80's. It was a long hard road for me, I knew I wasn't dumb, but I could not fathom what my problem was. By high school, I guess I trained my own brain and then started doing much better. After I get his test results and submit them to his school, they may say that they can no longer take him.
 
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